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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why the lack of space to roam?

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71 posts found
  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/04/12 10:34:46 AM#21
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Quizzical

You could try Uncharted Waters Online.

Sounds excellent.  Thanks for the tip.

It's one of the few games where exploration content is actually included.  

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/04/12 10:42:26 AM#22
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by chryses

It seems developers can't bare the thought of just having lands to roam for resources or just atmosphere. They need to cram every square inch in with some sort of joy ride. For me it takes away from the immersion and realism of an MMO. 

Basically I want to feel that I can go off in a direction and get lost and 'maybe' come across a roaming mob(s) or patch of resources that most don't know about.

There's a bit of a paradox there, though. You want to go somewhere most people don't go, and find something that most people would value.

In EQ, there was a small unmarked entrance in the south mountain wall of west Commonlands. If you happened to find it and duck inside, there was a huge multi-level dungeon full of undead. For people playing the first week after release, this was an awesome and terrifying find. But for the years and years that followed, it was common knowledge that Befallen is the low level dungeon off of Commonlands. Even though it was easy to miss, it was impossible to not know that it was there because of its importance. If you had zone chat on, you'd know what it was and where it was and all of its secrets by the time you were high enough level to go there. The same goes for most of EQ's dungeons, actually. Unmarked remote entrances but hardly secrets.

Information sharing makes what you're asking for very very difficult. If there's something worth finding, and if anyone's found it, you'll know about it shortly. In order for developers to make a world based around exploration and discovery, they would have to cater to a playerbase with a strong anti-spoiler culture. That's nonexistent in MMOs right now.

That's all fine, though, and it still worked, even years into the game.

  gatheris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/09/06
Posts: 988

7/04/12 10:43:08 AM#23

well, the way NOT to do it was Fallen Earth

huge areas of space with nothing in it - absolutely nothing - rock and dirt i suppose

great opportunity for unique creatures or plants to use in crafting to make your stuff "different"

not that FE would allow you to make something different - everybody made the same stuff based on level - ho-hum

 

  Reizla

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 3063

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

7/04/12 10:46:35 AM#24
Originally posted by eugheuforce

Lineage 2 in the early days had that feel, the game wasn't telling you where to go, you'd just explore and kill stuff. Quests were almost non-existant but that wasn't a problem.

I loved Lineage II up to November last year. Like you say, quests were almost non-exsistant and each level you had only 1 or 2 quests you could pickup and a load of continues gathering quests (for rather sh!tty reward BTW). Grinding was the way mostly and have those gather quests always with you for extra income ;)

But indeed as OP said... Most MMO's these days (ahum, for the last 7 years already) have every spot packed with monsters linked to one quest or the other :(

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  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/04/12 11:18:39 AM#25
Originally posted by gatheris

well, the way NOT to do it was Fallen Earth

huge areas of space with nothing in it - absolutely nothing - rock and dirt i suppose

great opportunity for unique creatures or plants to use in crafting to make your stuff "different"

not that FE would allow you to make something different - everybody made the same stuff based on level - ho-hum

 

True.

<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Big empty                    Sweet Spot!                                                            Too Linear

World

 

  User Deleted
7/04/12 11:25:40 AM#26

We need an mmo with good terraforming mechanics.

  hyllstarter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/28/05
Posts: 199

7/04/12 11:32:30 AM#27

One of my favorite things about SWG was just exploring the map.

  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/04/12 12:13:44 PM#28
Originally posted by hyllstarter

One of my favorite things about SWG was just exploring the map.

True, but these days I'd even settle for pro-WOLTK WOW type of freedom, and that'd be good enough.

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2682

7/04/12 12:25:59 PM#29
It has to dO with the cOst of creating that space vs how much its used. If only 1% of the population use it, why bother making that kin of content when 90% just want more quest hubs/dungeons?

The cost of adding un-used space in eve and minecraft is low because they are randomly generated/empty/reused.

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  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/04/12 12:29:45 PM#30
Originally posted by Castillle
It has to dO with the cOst of creating that space vs how much its used. If only 1% of the population use it, why bother making that kin of content when 90% just want more quest hubs/dungeons?

The cost of adding un-used space in eve and minecraft is low because they are randomly generated/empty/reused.

Disagree, completely, because many less expensive indie games and the earlier AAA MMORPG's had that space.  Creating space is just a matter of expanding scale or parameters of a boundary.

 I would think there is more cost in artificially creating storylines, questlines, and coordinating those to herd someone down a path.  In other words, devs, unwittingly, are paying dollars to design FAIL into their games (FAIL in terms of long-term subs; not in terms of box sales for "Splash and Crash" games).

  ArChWind

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 533

7/04/12 12:37:01 PM#31

Because they are MMORPG (Massively Online Role Playing GAMES) not world simulators. World simulations is more challenging to implement but doable.

  merv808

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 486

baseball doesn't have it right. A man with 4 balls CANNOT walk.

7/04/12 12:41:28 PM#32
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by XAPGames

In some games I think they push the density a bit too far (too crowded for my tastes).  Then again, I consider travel time integral with exploring, which I enjoy.  Many don't like it.

No one likes it. If anyone did, Roger Corman could have successfully produced the Tolkien Trilogy.

People say they want travel time because they envision it laden with adventure, mystery and rewarding encounters. If travel had that, it would

  • a) be frustrating for the people just trying to get from point A to point B
  • b) not be travel, but simply denser adventure, which worsk directly against the 'open space' thing
 
It seems like what they really want is areas of unscripted adventure. If so, it's a classic example of players not knowing what they really want, and the developers having to decipher what it is and try to deliver it, because if they deliver what the players actually asked for, those same players will scream 'fail' and reject the game. 
 

 

Agreed. This seems to always be the issue

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  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/04/12 12:43:59 PM#33
Originally posted by ArChWind

Because they are MMORPG (Massively Online Role Playing GAMES) not world simulators. World simulations is more challenging to implement but doable.

World Simulator

Experience Grinding

Dungeons

Crafting

Environment

Faction

 

Linear MMORPG

Experience Grinding

Dungeons

Crafting

Environment

Faction

Storyline Questing

 

Nah.  "World simulators" are missing the linear storyline questing, which does take effort, cost, and time to design.  Basically, devs are designing artificial limitations within their games, when all they need to do is to step back and allow players to play their own characters.

 

  Josher

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 2836

7/04/12 1:00:16 PM#34
World simulators are very easy to make. Bt are they fun? Not really. It's much easier to make tools that let players entertain themselves, broken bug ridden, ect. But are there many players that find that entertaining? Not many when you consider how many people enjoy playing games designed to entertain them.
  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

7/04/12 1:04:40 PM#35
Originally posted by Disdena

There's a bit of a paradox there, though. You want to go somewhere most people don't go, and find something that most people would value.

In EQ, there was a small unmarked entrance in the south mountain wall of west Commonlands. If you happened to find it and duck inside, there was a huge multi-level dungeon full of undead. For people playing the first week after release, this was an awesome and terrifying find. But for the years and years that followed, it was common knowledge that Befallen is the low level dungeon off of Commonlands. Even though it was easy to miss, it was impossible to not know that it was there because of its importance. If you had zone chat on, you'd know what it was and where it was and all of its secrets by the time you were high enough level to go there. The same goes for most of EQ's dungeons, actually. Unmarked remote entrances but hardly secrets.

Information sharing makes what you're asking for very very difficult. If there's something worth finding, and if anyone's found it, you'll know about it shortly. In order for developers to make a world based around exploration and discovery, they would have to cater to a playerbase with a strong anti-spoiler culture. That's nonexistent in MMOs right now.

I tihnk that's where the importance of randomness comes in. If cool stuff wasn't always in the same place, or even at the same time, then it would allow it to be stumbled upon before hearing about it. It doesn't always have to be a giant cave, although you could just move the enterence to different locations every so often.

  User Deleted
7/04/12 1:06:21 PM#36
Originally posted by Josher
World simulators are very easy to make.

Really? How many realistic and polished ones did you make then? Share with us, we'd like to try them.

  ArChWind

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 533

7/04/12 1:22:23 PM#37
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Josher
World simulators are very easy to make.

Really? How many realistic and polished ones did you make then? Share with us, we'd like to try them.

 They're secret  that is why no one has seen one or maybe because they really are so simple that no one wants one?

  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/04/12 1:25:54 PM#38
Originally posted by ArChWind
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Josher
World simulators are very easy to make.

Really? How many realistic and polished ones did you make then? Share with us, we'd like to try them.

 They're secret  that is why no one has seen one or maybe because they really are so simple that no one wants one?

What no one wants is an uber-linear WOW clone.  Those are splashing and crashing all around.  Something more sandboxy, like ArcheAge, is getting lots of interest, however.

Don't know about you, but the hand-holding in recent MMORPG's, I find maddening.  I'm ready to play in a "world" again.

  ArChWind

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 533

7/04/12 1:44:08 PM#39
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by ArChWind
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Josher
World simulators are very easy to make.

Really? How many realistic and polished ones did you make then? Share with us, we'd like to try them.

 They're secret  that is why no one has seen one or maybe because they really are so simple that no one wants one?

What no one wants is an uber-linear WOW clone.  Those are splashing and crashing all around.  Something more sandboxy, like ArcheAge, is getting lots of interest, however.

Don't know about you, but the hand-holding in recent MMORPG's, I find maddening.  I'm ready to play in a "world" again.

 I agree totally that is why I stopped messing with the MMORPG. But those that think the world simulations (MOVW) are a piece of cake can come over to my project and finish it then. Most give up after a couple days because it ain't no fucking MO or Darkfall. They look through the narrow minds eyes of games and can't see past a world simulations.

Sorry those kinds of posts just piss me off.

  Irus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 780

7/04/12 3:13:42 PM#40
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Game Engine and Server issues.

This.

Empty space is nice, but expensive. Problem is, most games are land games which means they have to generate the entire space unless they want to apply some clever pseudo-generational technology, but that would feel weird.

EVE was able to handle this well because they deal with space. They can pretend they have a whole solar system when they just have a few tiny specks generated per player (i.e., grids). Applying the same idea to land is possible but causes potential problems because the amount of land will always be less than space.

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