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General Discussion  » Why Elder Scrolls Online won't work

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72 posts found
  Fearum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

7/02/12 12:56:06 AM#21
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Fearum

The game is not skyrim or any of the single player games ported into a MMO, its entirely new game. The only thing in common with the Elder scrolls single player games is the world its based in.  

It puts you into a story of 1000 years before the first elder scrolls game in the middle of a world war where you choose a faction and fight for your faction to dominate Cyridil and crown a king also building up your character to become a hero along the way. There is a character story also that you can follow, dungeons to run instanced and public, 3 faction pvp, instanced BG pvp, exploration and other stuff. Its not a series game, its a new game based on the world of Elder scrolls.

They are still making the single players games at bethesda when they are not making all the other games they also have out.

Uh huh.

Why don't they just make a Gears of War MMO that introduces a 3rd faction for the sake of a having a 3rd one on top of CoGs and Locusts... then they can strip the FPS nature of it away and make it rely on hotbar-based combat ala World of Warcraft.

How do you think the reception will be over that?

Get real man, expectations are in place because the series existed as a GAME first. People have brought up "ooo Star Wars, would you gripe if Star Wars did it a certain way?". NO, because Star Wars is a movie franchise, they can do what they damned well please - TES is a GAME franchise, people have expectations for it if portrayed in the same goddamned medium goddamnit.

This is not as simple as moving Final Fantasy over into Final Fantasy: Tactics.

I don't understand what your talking about, I can just see your raging out for some reason again. I just described what the game is going to be no need to throw a tantrum again. I don't care about the reception of over the top fans thinking that the game will or should be another series in the Elder Scrolls games, because its not. Its a new game, plain and simple.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

7/02/12 1:06:17 AM#22

It's a new game that is butchering lore simply to fit in 3-faction PvP.

A DAoC dev comes in, sees the world map, and arbitrarily pounds out 3 factions geographically, using races that historically didn't get along enough to have this ever happen. It might be "just a new game", but when a 6th sequel to the single-player ones come out and eludes to the going's on in *this* bullshit era that was thrown together on the fly - then it affects the series as a whole.

I would rather pretend it never happened, but if there is so much as an in-game book or bit of NPC dialog that treats it as canon, you will see me throw an even bigger tantrum... and God forbid this MMO has mechanical or logistic stipulations that rollover into future TES games because of some *perceived* backing from it's community. If you won't have TES players throw salt in your koolaid, then you had better not throw it in ours.

Can you see why I am RAGING now?!

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  KingGator

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 474

7/02/12 1:15:35 AM#23

To the OP, from everything I've read it seems like its going to be a pretty solid mmo. I actually wasn't interested in it until I started reading hate thread after hate thread and I wanted to know why. They're really utilizing some features that kids are going ga ga over in gw2, and they're doing it with the trinity which I actually prefer. Its an mmo, it isn't world of skyrim, they've never said that's what they're trying to do. This game seems like it may have  a little success, which will make the apoplectic fit that some of the haters are going to have some of the best reading I've ever had on this forum, can't wait.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

7/02/12 1:19:23 AM#24
Originally posted by GTwander

Every time you enter a house or dungeon, you've entered an instance. It would be no different online.

Most quest goals end up being inside a dungeon, or indoors somehow... so...

That much is true, but they could easily tone back to a Morrowind-like system based on rolls.

I disagree with you almost whole-heartedly.

The game can take all it's past/present conventions and make them work - they just won't because the suits at Zenimax attribute static MMO gameplay as to what MAKES an MMO an MMO... and they would rather attract players from the current stagnating market, ironically, by making it just like everything else that players are getting tired of - rather than indoctrinating their existing fanbase. A stupid move overall.

If the game will be that instanced I feel that they as well could have made a CORPG instead like Guildwars.

I hope they will make it more open. 

As for turning all the mechanics from the singleplayer game into a multiplayer, I think most is possible in some changed way at least so there I agree with you. It is sad that Zenimax don´t dare to try new things with the game. An online polished up version of Daggerfall actually sounds better than ESO so far.

Hopefully will the game still be pretty fun but I am not impressed with what I seen so far.

  Fearum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

7/02/12 1:19:31 AM#25
Originally posted by GTwander

It's a new game that is butchering lore simply to fit in 3-faction PvP.

A DAoC dev comes in, sees the world map, and arbitrarily pounds out 3 factions geographically, using races that historically didn't get along enough to have this ever happen. It might be "just a new game", but when a 6th sequel to the single-player ones come out and eludes to the going's on in *this* bullshit era that was thrown together on the fly - then it affects the series as a whole.

I would rather pretend it never happened, but if there is so much as an in-game book or bit of NPC dialog that treats it as canon, you will see me throw an even bigger tantrum... and God forbid this MMO has mechanical or logistic stipulations that rollover into future TES games because of some *perceived* backing from it's community. If you won't have TES players throw salt in your koolaid, then you had better not throw it in ours.

Can you see why I am RAGING now?!

No, not really. Looks like you just like to rage out. This game is set 1000 years before the first elder scrolls game. You do realise that this is a fantasy game right? Fantasy is made up.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

7/02/12 1:23:08 AM#26
Originally posted by Fearum

No, not really. Looks like you just like to rage out. This game is set 1000 years before the first elder scrolls game.

~and yet the events never existed until they started making this thing.

How can you say it's ok to reverse engineer a major part of the world's history like that? You make George Lucas' constant meddling look tame ffs.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Fearum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

7/02/12 1:26:42 AM#27
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Fearum

No, not really. Looks like you just like to rage out. This game is set 1000 years before the first elder scrolls game.

~and yet the events never existed until they started making this thing.

How can you say it's ok to reverse engineer a major part of the world's history like that? You make George Lucas' constant meddling look tame ffs.

You do realise that this is a fantasy game right? Fantasy is made up.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

7/02/12 1:27:17 AM#28
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Fearum

No, not really. Looks like you just like to rage out. This game is set 1000 years before the first elder scrolls game.

~and yet the events never existed until they started making this thing.

How can you say it's ok to reverse engineer a major part of the world's history like that? You make George Lucas' constant meddling look tame ffs.

Bioware did the same thing with TOR and many others do the same.

I Dunno if I like it that much since I feel that the story feels less important that way for some reason....

But it is a lot better than doing what many others do and rewrite the history and pretend it always was like that. Blizzard North did it with Diablo 2 to mention one game that did it but there are plenty of them.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

7/02/12 1:29:38 AM#29
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Fearum

No, not really. Looks like you just like to rage out. This game is set 1000 years before the first elder scrolls game.

~and yet the events never existed until they started making this thing.

How can you say it's ok to reverse engineer a major part of the world's history like that? You make George Lucas' constant meddling look tame ffs.

You do realise that this is a fantasy game right? Fantasy is made up.

I did a little spying in your post history and found you ARE a DAoC vet and even said you hopped games looking for a fresh taste of 3-faction and RvR PvP. Why do I even bother arguing with you?

/hypocrite

This whole section is just DAoC vs TES. Why don't you just play the original ffs?

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Fearum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

7/02/12 1:35:10 AM#30
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Fearum

No, not really. Looks like you just like to rage out. This game is set 1000 years before the first elder scrolls game.

~and yet the events never existed until they started making this thing.

How can you say it's ok to reverse engineer a major part of the world's history like that? You make George Lucas' constant meddling look tame ffs.

You do realise that this is a fantasy game right? Fantasy is made up.

I did a little spying in your post history and found you ARE a DAoC vet and even said you hopped games looking for a fresh taste of 3-faction PvP. Why do I even bother arguing with you?

/hypocrite

I doubt your into following lore, you don't seem like that type of person. So don't hide behind lore for your argument. You ran out of anything to argue about, so your gonna use that as a cop-out. Haha

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

7/02/12 1:40:21 AM#31
Originally posted by Fearum

I doubt your into following lore, you don't seem like that type of person. So don't hide behind lore for your argument. You ran out of anything to argue about, so your gonna use that as a cop-out. Haha

I am a scholar in all things Elder Scrolls, but the fact of the matter is that I know why you keep wanting to argue over it.

Have fun playing DAoC 2, and holding onto Firor's pocketlining.

/wankmotion

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Fearum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

7/02/12 1:45:37 AM#32
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Fearum

I doubt your into following lore, you don't seem like that type of person. So don't hide behind lore for your argument. You ran out of anything to argue about, so your gonna use that as a cop-out. Haha

I am a scholar in all things Elder Scrolls, but the fact of the matter is that I know why you keep wanting to argue over it.

Have fun playing DAoC 2, and holding onto Firor's pocketlining.

/wankmotion

You can claim to be a scholar of anything you want, this is a internet forum. I'am looking forward to the 3 faction PvP, exploring the world, crafting (which they havent released anything yet) and the main storyline quests in the world of Elder Scrolls. DAoC was great, but it's not now.

  

  TGSOL

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/11
Posts: 279

7/02/12 1:49:04 AM#33

To me, making ES strictly third-person with hot-bar combat is like making Diablo an FPS. It just doesn't make sense.

 

"First-person real-time action combat" is a fundamental aspect of what makes the series what it is, in the same way that a third-person isometric camera angle and focus on loot collection are defining aspects of what make Diablo what it is.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4849

7/02/12 1:54:16 AM#34

What's funny is most of the things that the OP is talking about, actually used to be fairly staple MMO features. Exploration speficially, used to be what MMOs are all about.

All 3 points are definitely doable, but they won't be doable in the same way as skyrim did them. So, yes, it will be a completely different game. However, that doesn't mean they can't pull it off, I believe it's possible, they just need to take that same idea / feel and encapsulate it in a different way.

Exploration: Open world dungeons, puzzles, and explorable areas are definitely doable. GW2 is accomplishing this already.

Lack of instancing: This is most likely not possible. However, there are ways to 'hide' the loading to make it less obtrusive. Some games do this by basically having you enter a void, or a dark area, and it kinda loads as you are going through it, so it appears seamless even tohugh it isn't. Regardless, Skyrim has LOADs of instances, I'm not sure what the OP is talking about. The wide open world (that takes a while to travel around w/ out warping to waypoints) does make it feel non-instanced, but every dungeon, crypt, portal, all were instances with loading screens.

Interaction with People: Again, GW2 is doing this right now, so it's possible. It's all in how you approach your design to the game. I've heard that TESO may actually be borrowing a lot of these mechanics from GW2 for their own MMO. If it's true, then they very well might be able to pull of an elder scrolls MMO that feels right. We simply don't know enough about the game yet, and they don't seem confident enough to show us much yet.

  busdriver

Novice Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 923

7/02/12 2:13:30 AM#35
Originally posted by chryses

 I have always been an Elder Scrolls fan dating back to Daggerfall.  Having hammered Skyrim all week, I can't see how the essential ingredients that make the series work, can be transferred into an online format.

1. Elder Scrolls is about exploring vast open landscapes that allows a player to get lost and find hidden dungeons, temples and interesting characters.
Online - I don't believe they can create a massive world with little or no instances.  Exploration doesn't feel right when 25 other players are stomping all over the same temple.

Darkfall has so massive world that you rarely see anyone, this was true even when there were actually people playing the game. Not a single instance.

2. Its realistic in the sense that you come across a lone NPC and you stalk them not knowing if they are friend/foe and assisting or just killing them if you wan't.
Online - it will just be another spawn fest with multiple instances as everyone will be lining up to kill the same beast.

Migrating mobs. When you kill an NPC/mob, it spawns somewhere else. Also spawn points themselves could migrate. Darkfall was supposed to have this, but they didn't manage to pull it off. Lack of resources I think.

3. Its about complex combat, actual targeting and tactics. e.g. mid combat, swapping skills and spells whilst in pause mode. 
Online - Fallen Earth is the closest I have seen to using this in an online format. Its clunky at best. Due to the bandwidth and mass appeal they need to generate, its going to end up auto targeting or a very rudimentary combat system.

Darkfall.

Who the hell uses pausemode?

I am not trying to flame on this game, but as a massive fan of the series, I can't see how an online version can capture the essence of the single player game.  Just making another 3 faction warfare cookie cutter in the ES world stinks of a quick money grab from box sales.  I know its synical but after SWtOR and a few other releases, its hard not to feel this way for this game IMO, shouldn't be turned into an MMO for so many reasons.

Some games are just not made for the MMO genre and I really feel this is one of them.

Truth is, the only reasons that stop a great TES MMO becoming a reality (instead of this piece of donkey shit) are lack of  talent, ambition and imagination. I wouldn't let this Firor guy design a game of solitaire, let alone a MMORPG.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2223

7/02/12 2:16:59 AM#36

I wonder why isn't there any mention of Arena... Everyone's started with Daggerfall? :) Arena was a really good game, played it for a few months (true, Daggerfall looked better)

To the topic: I personally don't mind ESO, trying out new things not necessarily bad. (yep, GTwander, i tried FF: Tactics as well :) )  I will try ESO, and if I don't like it, I'll simply leave. It won't change anything in my relationship with Elder Scrolls, so why bother?

(sidenote: FF and FF: Tactics maybe not the perfect example, I think it's more like the C&C series and C&C Renegade, since the core gameplay elements are gonna change, if I red the infos correctly)

  MadnessRealm

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2717

Ignorance is Bliss.

7/02/12 2:18:04 AM#37

Here's the reason why The Elder Scrolls Online won't work : They're throwing everything that makes a TES game out the window, and make a completely different TES games, online, without even bothering to follow the lore and for the sake of making the game accessible to the MMO audience. 

They're using the TES IP, not because they wanted to make a TES MMO, but because they needed a popular IP to launch Zenimax Media in the MMO industry as well. Initially it was supposed to be a Fallout MMO but we all know how that turned out (hint: lawsuit) so what other popular IP do they have? TES.

TESO will not work. It will simply be yet another drop in the ocean of a tired industry that has dumbed down the genre for the sake of accessibility.  The hype for TESO is already low as is, it will not stand to compete against any other major upcoming titles and even unannounced ones.

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Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  KingGator

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 474

7/02/12 2:22:18 AM#38

If the game is good it will make it and the ocean of hate spewed by people who are made becasue its not an fps game, or more to the point skyrim online, isn't going to change that if it happes. I've read some of the things they're doing, and I think if the content is good this game has a shot at success. As I said earlier, the hissy fits being thrown by TES fans alone has me rooting for this game. DAOC was a a great game until TOA. If this turns out to basically be DAOC 2 it will appeal to a certain set of players and those players are going to support it. 

 

I look forward to reading post like "OMG how can this game be succesfful its not skyrim online" ........its gonna make for some highly entertaining reading. Nothing is more amusing than butt hurt fanboys.

  MadnessRealm

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2717

Ignorance is Bliss.

7/02/12 2:34:50 AM#39
Originally posted by KingGator

If the game is good it will make it and the ocean of hate spewed by people who are made becasue its not an fps game, or more to the point skyrim online, isn't going to change that if it happes. I've read some of the things they're doing, and I think if the content is good this game has a shot at success. As I said earlier, the hissy fits being thrown by TES fans alone has me rooting for this game. DAOC was a a great game until TOA. If this turns out to basically be DAOC 2 it will appeal to a certain set of players and those players are going to support it. 

 

I look forward to reading post like "OMG how can this game be succesfful its not skyrim online" ........its gonna make for some highly entertaining reading. Nothing is more amusing than butt hurt fanboys.

The issue isn't that it's not "Skyrim Online", Skyrim is only one of the 5 games from the TES serie. Bethesda has been working on building a very strong  IP and lore since 1994. TESO throws away the vast majority of what made the TES serie what it is today, and not just from a gameplay perspective. TESO is simply an MMORPG using  the TES IP to push itself onto the MMO industry. Call it DAOC 2 if you want, you're just proving the point that TESO is not a TES game. Let Firor make his DAOC 2 and have fun, but if they're sacrificing features for accessibility, just don't come in expecting the game to be DAOC pre-TOA.

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Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  Connmacart

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 693

7/02/12 2:37:47 AM#40
Originally posted by Po_gg

I wonder why isn't there any mention of Arena... Everyone's started with Daggerfall? :) Arena was a really good game, played it for a few months (true, Daggerfall looked better)

To the topic: I personally don't mind ESO, trying out new things not necessarily bad. (yep, GTwander, i tried FF: Tactics as well :) )  I will try ESO, and if I don't like it, I'll simply leave. It won't change anything in my relationship with Elder Scrolls, so why bother?

(sidenote: FF and FF: Tactics maybe not the perfect example, I think it's more like the C&C series and C&C Renegade, since the core gameplay elements are gonna change, if I red the infos correctly)

Arena wasn't as widely available as daggerfall was when it got released. Yes Daggerfall was my first TES game as well.

C&C series is also a bad example. C&C was an RTS series where Renegade got turned into an FPS, which is a completely different genre. TES games are RPG and turning thatseries into a MMO doesn't remove that. It still falls into the RPG genre. 

And to those that keep preaching DOAC. You are not going to get a new DOAC like the SWG fanboys won't get a new SWG. So just drop it and move on instead of being bitter old farts. Or simply start playing DOAC again.

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