Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by BartDaCat

Originally posted by coretex666

Is it really such a problem if the game contains several minor bugs when it is released? The game will get polished quickly I believe.

No MMO launches free of minor bugs. The community just needs to be a little patient and show some understanding and everything will be fine :)

If I were in your shoes, I would not worry so much. I believe the game will be ok

This +1.

 

I agree as well, but any dev putting their faith in the patience and understanding of the internet is a fool.

Saying that, I expect bugs to be in at launch, no matter how long they postpone it, because I am not a MMORPG newb.

I believe we as a community need to stop thinking like this. In what other industry do we expect and accept problems with the finished product?

I get it. We're gamers and we're impatient, and this is how it's been done since the beginning. But how about the concept of not announcing the game years in advance of release, taking the time to finish it and iron out the bugs, and then release it with a few months notice.

I feel like modern MMO developers are really taking advantage of the fact that we'll buy whatever unfinished crap they deign to serve us. The above highlighted text is proof of that.

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by BartDaCat

Originally posted by coretex666

Is it really such a problem if the game contains several minor bugs when it is released? The game will get polished quickly I believe.

No MMO launches free of minor bugs. The community just needs to be a little patient and show some understanding and everything will be fine :)

If I were in your shoes, I would not worry so much. I believe the game will be ok

This +1.

 

I agree as well, but any dev putting their faith in the patience and understanding of the internet is a fool.

Saying that, I expect bugs to be in at launch, no matter how long they postpone it, because I am not a MMORPG newb.

I believe we as a community need to stop thinking like this. In what other industry do we expect and accept problems with the finished product?

I get it. We're gamers and we're impatient, and this is how it's been done since the beginning. But how about the concept of not announcing the game years in advance of release, taking the time to finish it and iron out the bugs, and then release it with a few months notice.

I feel like modern MMO developers are really taking advantage of the fact that we'll buy whatever unfinished crap they deign to serve us. The above highlighted text is proof of that.

MMORPGs are more complex than most business software and the development funds are generally smaller than less complex business software.  Lower budget and more complex probably means there will be bugs.  It's not a matter of demanding perfrection for my money, but rather a matter of being realistic when considering the scope of the project.

People saying the stress test being buggy is a sign that the game isn't near finished don't understand what a stress test is. The client even said something about expecting performance issues due to the nature of the test, but people are still going "OMG I had teh laggz and DCz!!!! Game r not dunn!!!". I read through the 8 pages of bug reports on the official forum, most of it was very simple fixes or stuff that wasn't bugged (since the bug report forum was the only one open, many people posted suggestions and random comments there as well).

The things that still need fixing are extremely minor compared to what was changed between BWE1 and BWE2, and they still have 2 more months to polish it. I've been beta testing software since about 1992, and in 20 years this is one of the more finished products I've seen.

Someone above: "In what other industry do we expect and accept problems with the finished product?"

Answer: Damn near every one. Have you ever heard of a recall in the auto industry? Why does my windows program need to update, can't they release a "finished" product?  Billion dollar pharmeceuticals being recalled for killing people?

(I actually can't think of an example of an industry which never has problems with anything after release)

As long as there aren't any bugs making it unplayable or anything that can be majorly explioted by unethical players then it will be more finished than most games, but hey, we should hold out for a magical fairyland where everything is how we dream and nothing every goes even slightly wrong, right?

In the last BWE I thought the game looked pretty good IMO.  If it was launched that day, it would have been one of the better launches I have seen.

What is going to be 100 guarantee is:

- Game will fail for some people

- Game will be the best MMO for some people

- Game will be so-so for some people.

All they care about is the percentages in each category.

The fact the game is BTP, will give them a lot more time post launch to sort out issues, people are incredibly patient if they aren't paying an active sub.

I really didnt have any problems with BWE 2's build besides the little kinks and minor balance issues.  I myself am not worried because those are easy things to fix and they've been brought to arenanets attention through us, the testers.  Anyway, GW2 RELEASE DATE !!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Hasn't been expressed outright, but some people's responses to worries or criticisms are starting to slant toward "Miracle Build".  That is, you shouldn't complain now because when they release it will all be unicorns and rainbows.  Already have the "not the most current build" excuse, just waiting on "well they still have debugging code running" to crop up.

Originally posted by Vutar

This game had better have spectacular improvement in the next BWE or this will be just one more MMO in a long line that fails to meet expectations. The same people demanding the game be released are those who will be here a month later bashing it or moving on to the next hyped game. I really thought Anet was going to take their time and make sure the game was "ready." as they said. Having been in tons of beta tests for MMOs, I cannot fathom how they are going to fix all the problems this game still has by 28 August.

There were over 8 pages of just "bugs." in the few hour stress test yesterday. That does not even take into account things like the UI not being customizable. They would not allow any discussion yesterday in regard to improvements. All threads on that were locked. Likely they will be concentrating on squashing bugs for the next two months.  While good to get those taken care of, it is bad for anyone wanting any type significant improvment in gameplay systems. They will not want to implement anything major knowing that more bugs could come up before release.

I really like GW2 and think it could be a great game. However, if they release without implementing many of the improvements that were all over the forums during/after last BWE, it simply will not be a great game.

/sadface

You have to be joking. I really believe you have to be.

Your negativism was already debunked in a previous thread, but you put out the same arguements again, trying to spin the pending release date as a negative.

The game could launch next week and if the rest of the game were as well off as what we have seen so far in the BWEs, it would have already been well positioned to become the biggest MMO since WoW.

I've already played over 85 hours in the various events and if those 85 hours had been my first 85 hours of actual post launch game play, it would have been the best first 86 hours I'd have had with any MMORPG. WoW was the high water mark and there were a lot bigger issues with WoW at release than with GW2 in BWE2.

The only reason I'm not mad that we need to wait another two months is I realize that the rest of the game may still need some finishing up and I also know that Arenanet will make good use of that time to add even more polish and get the game fully optimized.

When an MMORPG needs more development time, I'm the first to clamor for it. Many titles since WoW's release would have greatly benefited from another 6 months or more of development time. GW2 is the first MMO in a long time where I've had to wonder if the developers weren't being a bit too focused on perfection before releasing the game.

I think the only people who need to be worried are people who were hoping to have until the end of the year before GW2 sucks the air out of most other MMORPGs in the market.

To each his own I guess. In the 4 hours yesterday I encountered one bug...which I reported (though in retrospect it was mostly a side effect of the stress test and not an actual bug...it was involving zoning between battlegrounds). The rest of the 4 hour play session was smooth as butter (FPS and lag wise) and I encountered no other issues or crashes.

I've played both weekends and both impromptu "stress tests". THe game has never crashed once for me (i was kicked out a few times but they weren't crashes). I encountered one "bugged" quest in the first event (the skill point mission in the first human zone) which was fixed by the next weekend event. Maybe I'm just lucky but I haven't experienced anything in the way of bugs/instability.

Now I have my concerns about the game sure, especially the WvW. I hope they tweak the reward system a bit for WvW (at the very least provide autoloot). However in terms of stability/lack of bugs I have really no complaints. Again maybe I'm just lucky.

Originally posted by Drevar

Hasn't been expressed outright, but some people's responses to worries or criticisms are starting to slant toward "Miracle Build".  That is, you shouldn't complain now because when they release it will all be unicorns and rainbows.  Already have the "not the most current build" excuse, just waiting on "well they still have debugging code running" to crop up.

GW2 doesn't need a miracle build. The content we've seen to date could release a week from now and it would be the best MMORPG in release. The wild card has always been the content that we haven't seen and were never going to see in a beta event until actual release. Obviously, Arenanet feels that content will be ready by the end of August and given how conservative they have been, it probably will be ready before that date.

That doesn't mean there won't be work to do after release, release always finds issues that won't be discovered outside of the live environment and balance and tweaking will go on for any MMO over the course of it's life span. However, the game is in no need of a miracle build.

To disparage "not the most current build" as excuse making is just plain silly. The BWE client has been lagging changes in the closed beta build since the start of the BWE process, not to mention the fact that the BWE client only includes a quarter of the game world and 1/8th of the Dungeons the game will ship with. Of course it's not the most current build, it's not even a complete build by three quarters!

even VG had a customizeable UI at release .. VANGUARD .. definitely disappointed in this, but otherwise it looks ready. and no one means mods .. or even macros (though basic chat macros I feel are very helpful) .. just the ability to have the UI arranged the way we want it arranged.

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Vutar

This game had better have spectacular improvement in the next BWE or this will be just one more MMO in a long line that fails to meet expectations. The same people demanding the game be released are those who will be here a month later bashing it or moving on to the next hyped game. I really thought Anet was going to take their time and make sure the game was "ready." as they said. Having been in tons of beta tests for MMOs, I cannot fathom how they are going to fix all the problems this game still has by 28 August.

There were over 8 pages of just "bugs." in the few hour stress test yesterday. That does not even take into account things like the UI not being customizable. They would not allow any discussion yesterday in regard to improvements. All threads on that were locked. Likely they will be concentrating on squashing bugs for the next two months.  While good to get those taken care of, it is bad for anyone wanting any type significant improvment in gameplay systems. They will not want to implement anything major knowing that more bugs could come up before release.

I really like GW2 and think it could be a great game. However, if they release without implementing many of the improvements that were all over the forums during/after last BWE, it simply will not be a great game.

/sadface

You have to be joking. I really believe you have to be.

Your negativism was already debunked in a previous thread, but you put out the same arguements again, trying to spin the pending release date as a negative.

The game could launch next week and if the rest of the game were as well off as what we have seen so far in the BWEs, it would have already been well positioned to become the giggest MMO since WoW.

I've already played over 85 hours in the various events and if those 85 hours had been my first 85 hours of actual post launch game play, it would have been the best first 86 hours I'd have had with any MMORPG. WoW was the high water mark and there were a lot bigger issues with WoW at release than with GW2 in BWE2.

The only reason I'm not mad that we need to wait another two months is I realize that the rest of the game may still need some finishing up and I also know that Arenanet will make good use of that time to add even more polish and get the game fully optimized.

When an MMORPG needs more development time, I'm the first to clamor for it. Many titles since WoW's release would have greatly benefited from another 6 months or more of development time. GW2 is the first MMO in a long time where I've had to wonder if the developers weren't being a bit too focused on perfection before releasing the game.

I think the only people who need to be worried are people who were hoping to have until the end of the year before GW2 sucks the air out of most other MMORPGs in the market.

Debunked? LOL you didn't debunk a damn thing.  It truely amazes me that with so many failed MMO's the past 5+ years people again and again are sucked in to the emotion of a new release. If you actualy believe this game is ready for release I feel sorry for you. This idea that just becuase a game is "stable" means that it is ready, is ridiculous. If that were the only standard then we should have quite a few great MMO's around. Aion for example was very stable at release, so was Rift. Heck SWTOR was stable at release as well. Yet all of them mere months after release found subs dwindling. 

One would think that at some point people would learn, instead they continuously double down on release hype and willingly ignore flaws a game has with the notion that "it will be fixed after release." 

The fact that you think GW2 is going to "suck the air out of most other MMORPG's in the market." says all anyone needs to know about your opinion.

Originally posted by azmundai

even VG had a customizeable UI at release .. VANGUARD .. definitely disappointed in this, but otherwise it looks ready. and no one means mods .. or even macros (though basic chat macros I feel are very helpful) .. just the ability to have the UI arranged the way we want it arranged.

This seems to be a common talking point. I remember in SWTOR it was a big deal as well. I've never understood it.

I'm not saying those who want it are wrong...I just never get it. The UI has a map, it has the buttons for skills, it has my health, it shows the menus. It has what I need. What do I need to change? Maybe for the first 15-30 minutes I'm getting used to a new UI if I'm coming from another game...but after that it seems perfectly fine? Why would I need to customize it? Adapting didn't really seem to cause that much stress.

Originally posted by DrWookie

Originally posted by azmundai

even VG had a customizeable UI at release .. VANGUARD .. definitely disappointed in this, but otherwise it looks ready. and no one means mods .. or even macros (though basic chat macros I feel are very helpful) .. just the ability to have the UI arranged the way we want it arranged.

This seems to be a common talking point. I remember in SWTOR it was a big deal as well. I've never understood it.

I'm not saying those who want it are wrong...I just never get it. The UI has a map, it has the buttons for skills, it has my health, it shows the menus. It has what I need. What do I need to change? Maybe for the first 15-30 minutes I'm getting used to a new UI if I'm coming from another game...but after that it seems perfectly fine? Why would I need to customize it? Adapting didn't really seem to cause that much stress.

WoW mods have allowed customization of the UI for years. Rift released with a fully customizable UI. Yet for some reason games releasing in 2012 do not allow modding nor are they customizable. That is a problem...

Originally posted by Vuta

Debunked? LOL you didn't debunk a damn thing.  It truely amazes me that with so many failed MMO's the past 5+ years people again and again are sucked in to the emotion of a new release. If you actualy believe this game is ready for release I feel sorry for you. This idea that just becuase a game is "stable" means that it is ready, is ridiculous. If that were the only standard then we should have quite a few great MMO's around. Aion for example was very stable at release, so was Rift. Heck SWTOR was stable at release as well. Yet all of them mere months after release found subs dwindling. 

One would think that at some point people would learn, instead they continuously double down on release hype and willingly ignore flaws a game has with the notion that "it will be fixed after release." 

The fact that you think GW2 is going to "suck the air out of most other MMORPG's in the market." says all anyone needs to know about your opinion.

Let me debunk your post then:

The release of WoW was crappy as hell and the game was practically unplaybable for the first weeks or so

...where's Wow now? Thought so!

So in Wow's case: they fixed it after release

Your turn now...

ohnoes! bugs on a bug list!

this game is so doomed when players even find bugs in beta!

nothing to see, move along!

Originally posted by Vutar

 

 

Debunked? LOL you didn't debunk a damn thing.  It truely amazes me that with so many failed MMO's the past 5+ years people again and again are sucked in to the emotion of a new release. If you actualy believe this game is ready for release I feel sorry for you. This idea that just becuase a game is "stable" means that it is ready, is ridiculous. If that were the only standard then we should have quite a few great MMO's around. Aion for example was very stable at release, so was Rift. Heck SWTOR was stable at release as well. Yet all of them mere months after release found subs dwindling. 

One would think that at some point people would learn, instead they continuously double down on release hype and willingly ignore flaws a game has with the notion that "it will be fixed after release." 

The fact that you think GW2 is going to "suck the air out of most other MMORPG's in the market." says all anyone needs to know about your opinion.

 What exactly isn't ready for release about the game? Honestly I feel the professions need a bit of work balance wise, I didn't experience any further bugs worth mentioning. The game being CPU bound didn't seem to have any effect on my system, for the life of me I couldn't find any reason other than my balance complaints that they shouldn't be ready.

 If you could perhaps illuminate the issues you see with the game with your opinion the game isn't ready the thread could have actual discussion on it. Perhaps the yet unseen zones, races, limited skills for professions, bosses?

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by DrWookie

Originally posted by azmundai

even VG had a customizeable UI at release .. VANGUARD .. definitely disappointed in this, but otherwise it looks ready. and no one means mods .. or even macros (though basic chat macros I feel are very helpful) .. just the ability to have the UI arranged the way we want it arranged.

This seems to be a common talking point. I remember in SWTOR it was a big deal as well. I've never understood it.

I'm not saying those who want it are wrong...I just never get it. The UI has a map, it has the buttons for skills, it has my health, it shows the menus. It has what I need. What do I need to change? Maybe for the first 15-30 minutes I'm getting used to a new UI if I'm coming from another game...but after that it seems perfectly fine? Why would I need to customize it? Adapting didn't really seem to cause that much stress.

 

WoW mods have allowed customization of the UI for years. Rift released with a fully customizable UI. Yet for some reason games releasing in 2012 do not allow modding nor are they customizable. That is a problem...

But that doesn't answer my question. I just don't get why we care about a customizeable UI? The UI functions fine. It has everything I would need. What is it missing? Do we just want customization for the sake of it or is there actually something lacking? Yes maybe some would prefer the map in a different spot...but that only takes a few minutes to get used to (at least it only took me a few minutes). I just don't get why people care so much about customization? I'm not fighting against it, I just don't see why it is so important to people.

Originally posted by Sixpax

Originally posted by botrytis

The missing content was due to the fact they didn't want to show much of it early to keep it new and exciting. There will always be bugs in software, don't kid yourself. It is only important if it cuases crashes, etc. My wife always says the last bug in software is fixed when the last user is dead.

That's not "missing content" that's "undisclosed content".  I'm referring to things like no voice-overs on some cutscenes (saw plenty of that).  And I agree on the bugs... minor bugs, meh, but client crashing bugs (which plagued me in BWE2 but not BWE1) need to be ironed out.  Again though, it's better to wait until BWE3 before this topic is even worth discussing.

You mean those cutscenes that clearly have a warning sign in the corner that says work in progress?   I know I totally expected those to be completely finished too after reading that.

C'mon, if it says it's not done, why expect it to be done?

Originally posted by Thrashbarg

People saying the stress test being buggy is a sign that the game isn't near finished don't understand what a stress test is. The client even said something about expecting performance issues due to the nature of the test, but people are still going "OMG I had teh laggz and DCz!!!! Game r not dunn!!!". I read through the 8 pages of bug reports on the official forum, most of it was very simple fixes or stuff that wasn't bugged (since the bug report forum was the only one open, many people posted suggestions and random comments there as well).

The things that still need fixing are extremely minor compared to what was changed between BWE1 and BWE2, and they still have 2 more months to polish it. I've been beta testing software since about 1992, and in 20 years this is one of the more finished products I've seen.

 

Someone above: "In what other industry do we expect and accept problems with the finished product?"

Answer: Damn near every one. Have you ever heard of a recall in the auto industry? Why does my windows program need to update, can't they release a "finished" product?  Billion dollar pharmeceuticals being recalled for killing people?

(I actually can't think of an example of an industry which never has problems with anything after release)

As long as there aren't any bugs making it unplayable or anything that can be majorly explioted by unethical players then it will be more finished than most games, but hey, we should hold out for a magical fairyland where everything is how we dream and nothing every goes even slightly wrong, right?

 

You should know by now that a lot of people don't like to read and the probability of them seeing the disclaimer that they will have crashes and several other issues during the stress test is basically slim to none.

Originally posted by DrWookie

Originally posted by Vutar

Originally posted by DrWookie

Originally posted by azmundai

even VG had a customizeable UI at release .. VANGUARD .. definitely disappointed in this, but otherwise it looks ready. and no one means mods .. or even macros (though basic chat macros I feel are very helpful) .. just the ability to have the UI arranged the way we want it arranged.

This seems to be a common talking point. I remember in SWTOR it was a big deal as well. I've never understood it.

I'm not saying those who want it are wrong...I just never get it. The UI has a map, it has the buttons for skills, it has my health, it shows the menus. It has what I need. What do I need to change? Maybe for the first 15-30 minutes I'm getting used to a new UI if I'm coming from another game...but after that it seems perfectly fine? Why would I need to customize it? Adapting didn't really seem to cause that much stress.

 

WoW mods have allowed customization of the UI for years. Rift released with a fully customizable UI. Yet for some reason games releasing in 2012 do not allow modding nor are they customizable. That is a problem...

But that doesn't answer my question. I just don't get why we care about a customizeable UI? The UI functions fine. It has everything I would need. What is it missing? Do we just want customization for the sake of it or is there actually something lacking? Yes maybe some would prefer the map in a different spot...but that only takes a few minutes to get used to (at least it only took me a few minutes). I just don't get why people care so much about customization? I'm not fighting against it, I just don't see why it is so important to people.

I'm with this guy.  ^

If the UI is broken or doesn't function, then hell yes, let the players fool around with it since the DEVS clearly haven't done so.  However, if the UI works well and functions the way it should without getting in the way of anything, then leave it alone.  If it's not broke, don't fix it.

FFXIV, that needed a new UI or customization.  SWTOR needed UI customization.  GW2, doesn't.  There's nothing other than moving a map or scooting frames around that matters, and even those are seriously already non-intrusive.