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The Secret World

The Secret World 

General Discussion  » Why the Combat is Poorly Designed (With Video Included)

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306 posts found
  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/28/12 6:59:19 AM#261
Originally posted by Hycoo
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Dredde

Ive read em, but I dont aggre. You have no facts again, only personal opinions.

 

Ive lvled a toon and tried some raids in AoC, but I didnt like it. One of the reasons beeing combat was so poorly. And one of the reasons i love TSW is the combat. The skill wheel is nothing like wow or rift or lotro f.ex You have much more choises and can be alot more unique. Ive played TSW for 50+ hours in closed beta and the fighting there is much more fun then the other games I just mentioned. Again a personal opinion, another personal opinion: People thinking AoC combat is better then TSW combat are strange.

Why is the skill wheel different than say talent trees?

How about I represent the wheel like a talent tree:

PISTOLS ---------------------------- HAMMERS

A        B                                         A         B

PISTOL T2 --------------------------- HAMMER T2

A B C D E F                                   A B C D E F

Now tell me again, how is that different from a talent tree? And since you can only take 7 abilities at a time, how is that more choices? If I let you choose 20 abilities of 100, vs 2 abilities out of 1000, which would you prefer? Which would make for better gameplay in a hotbar-based MMO where your gameplay is pushing those abilities?

Oh wait, you're saying you find TSW more fun. Well that's like, your opinion man.


The difference is that you can mix and match what weapons, abilities, states, and types of damage you want to use/do. This is something that talent trees don't let you do.

Yeah it's obvious you haven't read the posts properly and then there's not much point explaining things over and over.

Slickshoes, my apologies, you're right.

A lot of people here are too busy fawning over the new shiny to actually try to understand the rather simplistic systems behind the cosmetic fluff.

After the honeymoon period is over a month or two after release, they might understand better by reading what others have written.

  Hycoo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 208

6/28/12 7:09:32 AM#262
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Hycoo
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Dredde

Ive read em, but I dont aggre. You have no facts again, only personal opinions.

 

Ive lvled a toon and tried some raids in AoC, but I didnt like it. One of the reasons beeing combat was so poorly. And one of the reasons i love TSW is the combat. The skill wheel is nothing like wow or rift or lotro f.ex You have much more choises and can be alot more unique. Ive played TSW for 50+ hours in closed beta and the fighting there is much more fun then the other games I just mentioned. Again a personal opinion, another personal opinion: People thinking AoC combat is better then TSW combat are strange.

Why is the skill wheel different than say talent trees?

How about I represent the wheel like a talent tree:

PISTOLS ---------------------------- HAMMERS

A        B                                         A         B

PISTOL T2 --------------------------- HAMMER T2

A B C D E F                                   A B C D E F

Now tell me again, how is that different from a talent tree? And since you can only take 7 abilities at a time, how is that more choices? If I let you choose 20 abilities of 100, vs 2 abilities out of 1000, which would you prefer? Which would make for better gameplay in a hotbar-based MMO where your gameplay is pushing those abilities?

Oh wait, you're saying you find TSW more fun. Well that's like, your opinion man.


The difference is that you can mix and match what weapons, abilities, states, and types of damage you want to use/do. This is something that talent trees don't let you do.

Yeah it's obvious you haven't read the posts properly and then there's not much point explaining things over and over.

Slickshoes, my apologies, you're right.

A lot of people here are too busy fawning over the new shiny to actually try to understand the rather simplistic systems behind the cosmetic fluff.

After the honeymoon period is over a month or two after release, they might understand better by reading what others have written.

Yeah by your definition combat is simplistic because it doesn't involve using 20 hotkeys, but you fail to see the freedom and depth behind it. Im not typing here to try to convince you otherwise tho, im typing here so that you don't misinform everyone that are looking into this game. I think most stopped listening to you when you said wow combat is complex :)

  mrgrimrpr

Novice Member

Joined: 12/28/04
Posts: 93

6/28/12 7:10:14 AM#263
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by SlickShoes
 

Don't you realise that not everyone needs to play at the highest level or theorycraft everything?

Can't you tell that the guy you are responding to is just a guy wanting to play and enjoy a game, once again your post is highly condescending.

 

I think an elephant is bigger than the moon because the moon looks small to me, and telling me otherwise is condescending.

I don't need to operate with knowledge of science or whatever, I need to be allowed to be wrong so I can just enjoy life.

I applaud you for critizing to make the game better, until it comes down to attacking the fanbase. Out of 45 pages of posts I know you are playing the game for three reasons: Story, setting and investigation missions. I thought you would of learned that this isn't the game for you after the SWTOR fiasco, but posting things like:

" If there's one thing of value in TSW, it is working things out for yourself, just like those old point-and-click games - you ruin the experience if you just google/youtube the answer. Why ruin the only interesting part of the game?"

and

" The graphics despite all their detail are sparse and basic, the animations are horrible, the gameplay is spongey, the PVP is laughably bad."

I can already tell you that this game isn't for you. Save yourself the 50 bucks.

and then you go on to post things like:

" The combat and overall metagame of GW2 is indeed more complex and deeper than TSW."

and

" GW2 has "it" - that compulsive thing where you just don't want to stop playing and every game is enjoyable.

I am ONLY doing battlegrounds PVP (been missing those since Tera doesnt have them) and playing 2-3 classes, and it's already endless fun."

Then why would you waste your money on a game that is not worth it to you? I'm all for constructive critisism, but by posting in such a fashion you're becoming a debbie-downer, and giving many the impression that you are a troll. Does TSW need work? Yes. Does GW2 need work? Yes. By admitting this, I am unbiased, but judging by your post history, GW2 can do no wrong. So you asked what game you are championing for? I think you know the answer. There will never be the MMOJesus, WoW wasn't it, TSW won't be it, GW2 won't be it. Its many a niche game that we all enjoyed back in the day. After all of these posts, I hope you can find someone who wants to group with a constant complainer. =)

 

  Raekon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/04
Posts: 552

6/28/12 7:21:50 AM#264
Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Raekon
Originally posted by Blackbrrd
Originally posted by Raekon

TSW

- you run into a zombies infested place, the zombies are running to you as if they had pushed the "turbo mode" button and are glued on your body no matter how you move, biting you 24/7 till they are dead.

- No dodging possible, not a possibility to put them away since they are too fast and are glued on your body as if they were your second skin.

I saw a TSW dev commenting on this and said that just moving and active dodging made you live 33% longer than just standing there. The mobs does continous attacks if you stand still, but get forced into the movement animation if you move. You can't backpedal though, you need to circle strafe.

Hi! :)

I know that you can strafe and circle around.

My problem with it was that even the basic zombies were THAT fast that no matter how you moved, they kept been glued on your body, barely did damage while you were taking them out one after another.

If they managed to take your hp down (some stronger ones) you simply healed with a item before you took them down again while they were repeating their same attack animation over and over while you had no chance to take some distance by rolling or jumping back or to the side.

In my opinion they could fix the issue by either adding proper dodging/jumping/rolling into the game (make it more action based like in the RE Series as example) OR at least make these zombies slower than the player cause their speed is ridicoulos.

When I get attacked by "turbo zombies" that barely do damage and are glued on my body no matter how I move, it just destroys this feeling and drops the quality of the game down to nothingness and that's a bad thing.

Even enemies that should be faster than the player like birds or dogs shouldn't just rush and get glued on one but rather attack, step back and rush attack again.

If they indeed "stuck" on the player, then a proper animation should be included in which shows that a dog has bitten and holds a part of your clothing or body and give you the opportunity to hit it away, roll back (or similar action) before it makes it back to you again.

Same with the zombies after they reached someone.

Such details would improve the overall quality of the game and richen the whole experience for everyone.

It just bothers me the most because the game has a wonderful atmosphere/environment in which properly designed enemies and combat mechanics could give you a really great horror adventure feeling and add a lot of fun into the game.

It would be a huge shame if they won't bother to improve such things.

 

I agree with all of this. Right now the combat is just poor, and it is the biggest factor in why the game will die after a couple of months, once people have consumed the story content.

Funcom needs to delay release and overhaul the entire combat system both from a PVE perspective and a PVP perspective to make the game actually fun to play in itself.

Otheriwse, it'll just be another dead MMO to add to the ever-increasing pile and none of us want that.


Shenanigans, Still mad that SWTOR is a flop? If you think the combat is any worse than any mmo that has come out, you'd be mistaken. Bad combat? lol, people's posts are excluding quite a bit of "IMO", thus being spoken as fact. The fact is: why would you play a game if one of its big mechanics such as combat is broken?

If this is an attempt to ward of the WoW crowd, then by all means: The combat is broken. *wink* *wink* *nudge* nudge*

Just a suggestion to you:

- if you have nothing productive to say then please feel free to ignore my posts

- if you are not able to read my post and greyhoofs reply to it properly, then please feel free to ignore this post again

Why?

Because:

- you have no clue if I'm currently playing the game but yet you feel the need to say I and Greyhoof are doing so

- you are involving SWTOR in the post I never wrote about

- nor me or Greyhoof wrote that TSW has the "worst combat in a mmo" but you feel the need to say that we "think" that way?

- you ignoring the real issues the combat system of this game has and are attacking peoples posts instead of helping the Devs and the Game with constructiv critisism upon the games system so they can improve it and through it provide the community with a greater game then they already have provided us with

- it's really beyond me how you can ignore these issues and for what reason, when even a Developer itself thanked me for my contribution and review after the betas, because he found my points valid and on spot.

Last but not least: Yes! The combat system in it's current state and partially the animations "sucks" (to put it in your wording), because it destroys the aesthetics the environment and story provides the game with.

  rpgalon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/11
Posts: 432

6/28/12 7:27:36 AM#265
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Hycoo
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Dredde

Ive read em, but I dont aggre. You have no facts again, only personal opinions.

 

Ive lvled a toon and tried some raids in AoC, but I didnt like it. One of the reasons beeing combat was so poorly. And one of the reasons i love TSW is the combat. The skill wheel is nothing like wow or rift or lotro f.ex You have much more choises and can be alot more unique. Ive played TSW for 50+ hours in closed beta and the fighting there is much more fun then the other games I just mentioned. Again a personal opinion, another personal opinion: People thinking AoC combat is better then TSW combat are strange.

Why is the skill wheel different than say talent trees?

How about I represent the wheel like a talent tree:

PISTOLS ---------------------------- HAMMERS

A        B                                         A         B

PISTOL T2 --------------------------- HAMMER T2

A B C D E F                                   A B C D E F

Now tell me again, how is that different from a talent tree? And since you can only take 7 abilities at a time, how is that more choices? If I let you choose 20 abilities of 100, vs 2 abilities out of 1000, which would you prefer? Which would make for better gameplay in a hotbar-based MMO where your gameplay is pushing those abilities?

Oh wait, you're saying you find TSW more fun. Well that's like, your opinion man.


The difference is that you can mix and match what weapons, abilities, states, and types of damage you want to use/do. This is something that talent trees don't let you do.

Yeah it's obvious you haven't read the posts properly and then there's not much point explaining things over and over.

Slickshoes, my apologies, you're right.

A lot of people here are too busy fawning over the new shiny to actually try to understand the rather simplistic systems behind the cosmetic fluff.

After the honeymoon period is over a month or two after release, they might understand better by reading what others have written.

so I'm on a pretty long honeymoon, since I have played for almost 3 months and there is still things to do to upgrade my primary build.

most people forget that to make a build you not only need the actives+passives abillities, you also need a very specific gear set that fits your build like a glove.

  mrgrimrpr

Novice Member

Joined: 12/28/04
Posts: 93

6/28/12 7:33:16 AM#266
Originally posted by Raekon
Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Raekon
Originally posted by Blackbrrd
Originally posted by Raekon

TSW

- you run into a zombies infested place, the zombies are running to you as if they had pushed the "turbo mode" button and are glued on your body no matter how you move, biting you 24/7 till they are dead.

- No dodging possible, not a possibility to put them away since they are too fast and are glued on your body as if they were your second skin.

I saw a TSW dev commenting on this and said that just moving and active dodging made you live 33% longer than just standing there. The mobs does continous attacks if you stand still, but get forced into the movement animation if you move. You can't backpedal though, you need to circle strafe.

Hi! :)

I know that you can strafe and circle around.

My problem with it was that even the basic zombies were THAT fast that no matter how you moved, they kept been glued on your body, barely did damage while you were taking them out one after another.

If they managed to take your hp down (some stronger ones) you simply healed with a item before you took them down again while they were repeating their same attack animation over and over while you had no chance to take some distance by rolling or jumping back or to the side.

In my opinion they could fix the issue by either adding proper dodging/jumping/rolling into the game (make it more action based like in the RE Series as example) OR at least make these zombies slower than the player cause their speed is ridicoulos.

When I get attacked by "turbo zombies" that barely do damage and are glued on my body no matter how I move, it just destroys this feeling and drops the quality of the game down to nothingness and that's a bad thing.

Even enemies that should be faster than the player like birds or dogs shouldn't just rush and get glued on one but rather attack, step back and rush attack again.

If they indeed "stuck" on the player, then a proper animation should be included in which shows that a dog has bitten and holds a part of your clothing or body and give you the opportunity to hit it away, roll back (or similar action) before it makes it back to you again.

Same with the zombies after they reached someone.

Such details would improve the overall quality of the game and richen the whole experience for everyone.

It just bothers me the most because the game has a wonderful atmosphere/environment in which properly designed enemies and combat mechanics could give you a really great horror adventure feeling and add a lot of fun into the game.

It would be a huge shame if they won't bother to improve such things.

 

I agree with all of this. Right now the combat is just poor, and it is the biggest factor in why the game will die after a couple of months, once people have consumed the story content.

Funcom needs to delay release and overhaul the entire combat system both from a PVE perspective and a PVP perspective to make the game actually fun to play in itself.

Otheriwse, it'll just be another dead MMO to add to the ever-increasing pile and none of us want that.


Shenanigans, Still mad that SWTOR is a flop? If you think the combat is any worse than any mmo that has come out, you'd be mistaken. Bad combat? lol, people's posts are excluding quite a bit of "IMO", thus being spoken as fact. The fact is: why would you play a game if one of its big mechanics such as combat is broken?

If this is an attempt to ward of the WoW crowd, then by all means: The combat is broken. *wink* *wink* *nudge* nudge*

Just a suggestion to you:

- if you have nothing productive to say then please feel free to ignore my posts

- if you are not able to read my post and greyhoofs reply to it properly, then please feel free to ignore this post again

Why?

Because:

- you have no clue if I'm currently playing the game but yet you feel the need to say I and Greyhoof are doing so

- you are involving SWTOR in the post I never wrote about

- nor me or Greyhoof wrote that TSW has the "worst combat in a mmo" but you feel the need to say that we "think" that way?

- you ignoring the real issues the combat system of this game has and are attacking peoples posts instead of helping the Devs and the Game with constructiv critisism upon the games system so they can improve it and through it provide the community with a greater game then they already have provided us with

- it's really beyond me how you can ignore these issues and for what reason, when even a Developer itself thanked me for my contribution and review after the betas, because he found my points valid and on spot.

Last but not least: Yes! The combat system in it's current state and partially the animations "sucks" (to put it in your wording), because it destroys the aesthetics the environment and story provides the game with.


Raekon, I appreciate your input on the game, I really do. I have no problem with debate or constructive critisism, unfortunately it has boiled down to personal insults. This will be my last post on the subject, but know my posts were not directed at you, saying something sucks is not constructive, and to think others may insult the intelligence of others as constructive feedback is above me. Good day.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/28/12 7:37:34 AM#267
Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by SlickShoes
 

Don't you realise that not everyone needs to play at the highest level or theorycraft everything?

Can't you tell that the guy you are responding to is just a guy wanting to play and enjoy a game, once again your post is highly condescending.

 

I think an elephant is bigger than the moon because the moon looks small to me, and telling me otherwise is condescending.

I don't need to operate with knowledge of science or whatever, I need to be allowed to be wrong so I can just enjoy life.

I applaud you for critizing to make the game better, until it comes down to attacking the fanbase. Out of 45 pages of posts I know you are playing the game for three reasons: Story, setting and investigation missions. I thought you would of learned that this isn't the game for you after the SWTOR fiasco, but posting things like:

" If there's one thing of value in TSW, it is working things out for yourself, just like those old point-and-click games - you ruin the experience if you just google/youtube the answer. Why ruin the only interesting part of the game?"

and

" The graphics despite all their detail are sparse and basic, the animations are horrible, the gameplay is spongey, the PVP is laughably bad."

I can already tell you that this game isn't for you. Save yourself the 50 bucks.

and then you go on to post things like:

" The combat and overall metagame of GW2 is indeed more complex and deeper than TSW."

and

" GW2 has "it" - that compulsive thing where you just don't want to stop playing and every game is enjoyable.

I am ONLY doing battlegrounds PVP (been missing those since Tera doesnt have them) and playing 2-3 classes, and it's already endless fun."

Then why would you waste your money on a game that is not worth it to you? I'm all for constructive critisism, but by posting in such a fashion you're becoming a debbie-downer, and giving many the impression that you are a troll. Does TSW need work? Yes. Does GW2 need work? Yes. By admitting this, I am unbiased, but judging by your post history, GW2 can do no wrong. So you asked what game you are championing for? I think you know the answer. There will never be the MMOJesus, WoW wasn't it, TSW won't be it, GW2 won't be it. Its many a niche game that we all enjoyed back in the day. After all of these posts, I hope you can find someone who wants to group with a constant complainer. =)

 

 

Good post this, and I agree with almost all of it.

I do have things I don't like with GW2, I find the lore and setting very bland, the races very uninspiring and the whole "radiant questing" thing or whatever is just overblown. GW2 is a regular hotbar MMO with dodge, with quests, and it's really not an "action-MMO" a la Tera/Vindictus/etc - so people need to stop pretending GW2 will revolutionise MMO gaming, it won't. The good thing about GW2 is the combat, the gameplay, and the depth and intricacy of the metagame, and those things it does better than every other MMO I've played.

In some ways GW2 is kind of the exact opposite of TSW. 

TSW story, setting and atmosphere are great, and I like the 3 factions, their equivalent of "races". I just think the game is very rough around the edges, the combat system is poor, the gameplay is not smooth or engaging, and the metagame is simplistic.

That's kind of my comparative review of both games. Overall I suspect GW2 will be a more successful game because of the payment model and the fact that it seems to already be attracting players from League of Legends, MMO and FPS backgrounds simultaneously.

You're also right that TSW is kind of like SWTOR. For that reason, I do think it will need to get significantly better before release, or it will in fact end up exactly like SWTOR. Which is fine for me, I just want to do the content and then I'll play something else. But for those who want a MMO that will be a long-term success, TSW isn't that, no more than SWTOR isn't. Or rather... wasn't.

  mrgrimrpr

Novice Member

Joined: 12/28/04
Posts: 93

6/28/12 7:42:33 AM#268
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by SlickShoes
 

Don't you realise that not everyone needs to play at the highest level or theorycraft everything?

Can't you tell that the guy you are responding to is just a guy wanting to play and enjoy a game, once again your post is highly condescending.

 

I think an elephant is bigger than the moon because the moon looks small to me, and telling me otherwise is condescending.

I don't need to operate with knowledge of science or whatever, I need to be allowed to be wrong so I can just enjoy life.

I applaud you for critizing to make the game better, until it comes down to attacking the fanbase. Out of 45 pages of posts I know you are playing the game for three reasons: Story, setting and investigation missions. I thought you would of learned that this isn't the game for you after the SWTOR fiasco, but posting things like:

" If there's one thing of value in TSW, it is working things out for yourself, just like those old point-and-click games - you ruin the experience if you just google/youtube the answer. Why ruin the only interesting part of the game?"

and

" The graphics despite all their detail are sparse and basic, the animations are horrible, the gameplay is spongey, the PVP is laughably bad."

I can already tell you that this game isn't for you. Save yourself the 50 bucks.

and then you go on to post things like:

" The combat and overall metagame of GW2 is indeed more complex and deeper than TSW."

and

" GW2 has "it" - that compulsive thing where you just don't want to stop playing and every game is enjoyable.

I am ONLY doing battlegrounds PVP (been missing those since Tera doesnt have them) and playing 2-3 classes, and it's already endless fun."

Then why would you waste your money on a game that is not worth it to you? I'm all for constructive critisism, but by posting in such a fashion you're becoming a debbie-downer, and giving many the impression that you are a troll. Does TSW need work? Yes. Does GW2 need work? Yes. By admitting this, I am unbiased, but judging by your post history, GW2 can do no wrong. So you asked what game you are championing for? I think you know the answer. There will never be the MMOJesus, WoW wasn't it, TSW won't be it, GW2 won't be it. Its many a niche game that we all enjoyed back in the day. After all of these posts, I hope you can find someone who wants to group with a constant complainer. =)

 

 

Good post this, and I agree with almost all of it.

I do have things I don't like with GW2, I find the lore and setting very bland, the races very uninspiring and the whole "radiant questing" thing or whatever is just overblown. GW2 is a regular hotbar MMO with dodge, with quests, and it's really not an "action-MMO" a la Tera/Vindictus/etc - so people need to stop pretending GW2 will revolutionise MMO gaming, it won't. The good thing about GW2 is the combat, the gameplay, and the depth and intricacy of the metagame, and those things it does better than every other MMO I've played.

In some ways GW2 is kind of the exact opposite of TSW. 

TSW story, setting and atmosphere are great, and I like the 3 factions, their equivalent of "races". I just think the game is very rough around the edges, the combat system is poor, the gameplay is not smooth or engaging, and the metagame is simplistic.

That's kind of my comparative review of both games. Overall I suspect GW2 will be a more successful game because of the payment model and the fact that it seems to already be attracting players from League of Legends, MMO and FPS backgrounds simultaneously.

You're also right that TSW is kind of like SWTOR. For that reason, I do think it will need to get significantly better before release, or it will in fact end up exactly like SWTOR. Which is fine for me, I just want to do the content and then I'll play something else. But for those who want a MMO that will be a long-term success, TSW isn't that, no more than SWTOR isn't.


I know I said that I wasn't going to post, but after this I had to. /applaud, good post.

  User Deleted
6/28/12 7:46:54 AM#269
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by SlickShoes
 

 

 

 

Good post this, and I agree with almost all of it.

I do have things I don't like with GW2, I find the lore and setting very bland, the races very uninspiring and the whole "radiant questing" thing or whatever is just overblown. GW2 is a regular hotbar MMO with dodge, with quests, and it's really not an "action-MMO" a la Tera/Vindictus/etc - so people need to stop pretending GW2 will revolutionise MMO gaming, it won't. The good thing about GW2 is the combat, the gameplay, and the depth and intricacy of the metagame, and those things it does better than every other MMO I've played.

In some ways GW2 is kind of the exact opposite of TSW. 

TSW story, setting and atmosphere are great, and I like the 3 factions, their equivalent of "races". I just think the game is very rough around the edges, the combat system is poor, the gameplay is not smooth or engaging, and the metagame is simplistic.

That's kind of my comparative review of both games. Overall I suspect GW2 will be a more successful game because of the payment model and the fact that it seems to already be attracting players from League of Legends, MMO and FPS backgrounds simultaneously.

You're also right that TSW is kind of like SWTOR. For that reason, I do think it will need to get significantly better before release, or it will in fact end up exactly like SWTOR. Which is fine for me, I just want to do the content and then I'll play something else. But for those who want a MMO that will be a long-term success, TSW isn't that, no more than SWTOR isn't. Or rather... wasn't.

That's why i want them fused together

As far as the sucess of te game, i don't care. I don't play games for their sucess and money they make the devs, since i'll never touch it.

Regarding playing like SWTOR, same thing can be said for GW2. I really don't see the difference at all. In fact, GW2 is closer, where you have to run alts to get more out of pve. Both of these are themepakrs. Make a character, do quests, story, dungeons, grind soem more pvp, get bored, move on. The thing is, once i run out of things to do or get tired, i'll leave and come back when there's new content going on. However, i plan to enjoy my journey in both games.

Almost all pve content in rpgs in story based, and when it's over, it's over. I don't get where players expect these games to actually last them more then a few months. New wave of mmorpgs and all of that.

EDIT: Sorry, but this is out of topic. the thread is about the combat systems. Let's not derail.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/28/12 10:19:23 AM#270

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

6/28/12 10:21:13 AM#271
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/28/12 10:25:28 AM#272
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

And yet I have so much fun :)

Or are you saying your way of having fun is the only way? 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

6/28/12 10:34:29 AM#273
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

And yet I have so much fun :)

Or are you saying your way of having fun is the only way? 

no but you tear apart a system that offers tons of flexability because its going to have min/max combos? well guess what every game like this will always have min/max combos its just how it goes.. Ones that are OP will get nerfed and so on. The fun of this system is having the options to build a slew of differn't builds and enjoy hybrids.. I don't get why people are so focused on just the min/max aspect of systems and can't enjoy them for what else they offer.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/28/12 10:41:46 AM#274
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

And yet I have so much fun :)

Or are you saying your way of having fun is the only way? 

no but you tear apart a system that offers tons of flexability because its going to have min/max combos? well guess what every game like this will always have min/max combos its just how it goes.. Ones that are OP will get nerfed and so on. The fun of this system is having the options to build a slew of differn't builds and enjoy hybrids.. I don't get why people are so focused on just the min/max aspect of systems and can't enjoy them for what else the offer,

How is understanding a system tearing it apart? What do you mean by "tons of flexibility", a damage number is a damage number whether it comes from an assault rifle or a fist weapon, a weakened or impaired debuff is still the same debuff regardless of where it came from.

You're telling me the fun comes from making random builds that don't work? The measure of a good build is how it performs in the task of like, killing stuff. And the game rewards optimal builds. That's pretty much what the whole system and the whole game is driving towards.

You don't take DPS who can't deal damage and cause your entire group to wipe just because they're having fun doing a different build that is complete crap. Even in beta, people were asking for "good dps" for Polaris. This should give you a good indication that builds are there to be worked out with a view to creating builds that work and work well, not just any old random things thrown together.

What you're saying is that players of this game should not min-max, but why does the game encourage us to, and even require it of us when things get difficult?

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/28/12 10:44:39 AM#275

oh and as for nerfing OP stuff:

I used to play a +polearm gemmed Guardian in AOC. One-shotting people was fun... for a few days. We basically killed everyone, in open world, in the battleground, it was kind of a massacre. Very easy to do too. AOC also had a very simplistic metagame.

They fixed it months after I had already left. Funcom is not quick at dealing with OP builds.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

6/28/12 10:47:11 AM#276
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

And yet I have so much fun :)

Or are you saying your way of having fun is the only way? 

no but you tear apart a system that offers tons of flexability because its going to have min/max combos? well guess what every game like this will always have min/max combos its just how it goes.. Ones that are OP will get nerfed and so on. The fun of this system is having the options to build a slew of differn't builds and enjoy hybrids.. I don't get why people are so focused on just the min/max aspect of systems and can't enjoy them for what else the offer,

How is understanding a system tearing it apart? What do you mean by "tons of flexibility", a damage number is a damage number whether it comes from an assault rifle or a fist weapon, a weakened or impaired debuff is still the same debuff regardless of where it came from.

You're telling me the fun comes from making random builds that don't work? The measure of a good build is how it performs in the task of like, killing stuff. And the game rewards optimal builds. That's pretty much what the whole system and the whole game is driving towards.

You don't take DPS who can't deal damage and cause your entire group to wipe just because they're having fun doing a different build that is complete crap. Even in beta, people were asking for "good dps" for Polaris. This should give you a good indication that builds are there to be worked out with a view to creating builds that work and work well, not just any old random things thrown together.

What you're saying is that players of this game should not min-max, but why does the game encourage us to, and even require it of us when things get difficult?

Because you say they don't work they don't? I saw this same attitude in Rift. I put together tons of soul combo builds and wrote guides about them and they were not the FOTM builds yet guess what? they worked great and were a ton of fun. You don't have ot min/max everything to be competative to have fun in Rift and you don't in this game. If all you do is look at it like that then I guess you could call it shallow but I don't and enjoy putting together builds others don't think of and prove to people like you I can destroy them in PVP with my builds. But like I said all these games will have OP builds till things get balanced out a bit just depends how fell funcom handles this.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

6/28/12 10:49:29 AM#277
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

You do realise this is not how the average person plays a game? 

Take me for instance, I am at work, working, and posting here during lunch/tea breaks, by the time I get home and sat infront of the computer it is 8pm, I will then play a game for a few hours, probably TSW this weekend and next week.

I will not spend any time at all with a spreadsheet working out the most efficient way to kill a player or certain mob, with a certain combination of abilities.

It's great that you have the time to devote to theorycrafting the hell out of the game but the majority of people don't do this. If you are approaching games in this way you should try to find a game that caters to your style rather than constantly ragging on games like these that are clearly for "slow" people as you so eloquently put it a few pages ago.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/28/12 10:53:35 AM#278
Originally posted by SlickShoes
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

You do realise this is not how the average person plays a game? 

Take me for instance, I am at work, working, and posting here during lunch/tea breaks, by the time I get home and sat infront of the computer it is 8pm, I will then play a game for a few hours, probably TSW this weekend and next week.

I will not spend any time at all with a spreadsheet working out the most efficient way to kill a player or certain mob, with a certain combination of abilities.

It's great that you have the time to devote to theorycrafting the hell out of the game but the majority of people don't do this. If you are approaching games in this way you should try to find a game that caters to your style rather than constantly ragging on games like these that are clearly for "slow" people as you so eloquently put it a few pages ago.

I'm at work too, in between mails and phone calls and well, work stuff, I tab to the forums, tab to my spreadsheets, etc.

It doesn't take hours to work out this stuff, an hour or two total, tops. I've played games of Risk that have lasted longer.

  negativf4kk

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 376

6/28/12 10:53:39 AM#279
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

Yeah.

The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

 

such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

And yet I have so much fun :)

Or are you saying your way of having fun is the only way? 

Unfortunatly  proof of poorly desighned combat is video of  facerolling undergeared people who just starting the game. This proof nothing. 

Save your money or better give them to charity.

 

Edited.

 

 

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  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/28/12 10:55:32 AM#280
Originally posted by Aerowyn
 

Because you say they don't work they don't? I saw this same attitude in Rift. I put together tons of soul combo builds and wrote guides about them and they were not the FOTM builds yet guess what? they worked great and were a ton of fun. You don't have ot min/max everything to be competative to have fun in Rift and you don't in this game. If all you do is look at it like that then I guess you could call it shallow but I don't and enjoy putting together builds others don't think of and prove to people like you I can destroy them in PVP with my builds. But like I said all these games will have OP builds till things get balanced out a bit just depends how fell funcom handles this.

So you're working out builds... and it makes you happy that they "destroy others in PVP"

How is that different from what I'm doing? Oh wait, it's not!

Does that mean you share my "sad and shallow look you have on games."

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