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General Discussion  » Brian Wheeler Quote- PvP Lead

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70 posts found
  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/27/12 3:11:46 PM#41
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Terronte

I hate to break it to everyone all excited about another IP being made into an MMO. It's not going to be what you want. It's going to be your favorite IP slathered over a WoW base..with some sort of twist so they can say it's innovative. You heard it here first.

I hate to break it to you but all MMO with Battlegrounds apart from WOW failed miserably, so it is not essential for any MMO, let alone a TES one.

 

...and which ones with open world PvP have done any better?

The same argument, as in the red, could be made for any kind of PvP in any MMORPG.

Especially a TES one, which by rights should be PvP free right from the start.

 

The focus of PvP in these games has turned the gaming culture of them into a cesspit.

in all fairness I would say EvE to answer your question. Even though I am a Darkfall fan myself EvE is the proper answer to that question

Even then the argument is disingenuous.  The point is no feature is ESSENTIAL for an MMO except for what it stands for: Massively Multiplayer Online.  It is a format, not a genre.

Even when you specify MMORPG you only have to look at the incredibly diverse RPG landscape to see the possibilties of features there.

Basically, nowadays, RPGs are about one thing: character progression.  You get that in your game and you earn the RPG tag (often hybrid'd with FPS or TPS).  It may not be a traditional RPG, or a "deep" RPG, but that's about all the requirement there any more.  So the canvas is open, blank, and all the colors are available to those with the imagination enough to use them.

Matt Firor prefers to stick to black and white it seems.

@Vesavius: How would it make sense for a TES MMO to be PvP free?  I assume you mean no PvP at all?  Have you played any TES games?  One of the major features is that you can hit/attack/kill anything at any time and take everything on its corpse, as long as you understand you might be breaking the law and end up imprisoned.  That sounds like FFA PVP to me with a robust crime and punishment system.

If you meant Free-For-All PvP and you phrased it differently then I apologize.

Originally posted by kadepsyson

I could understand an Arena, Imperial City style, to do matches between two players or even teams of players.  But I don't think "battlegrounds" are anywhere close to what the Elder Scrolls have established in their lore.

It feels like a cop out to me.  Appealing to the lowest common denominator (WoW players)


100% agreed.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/27/12 3:22:20 PM#42
Originally posted by Entinerint

@Vesavius: How would it make sense for a TES MMO to be PvP free?  I assume you mean no PvP at all?  Have you played any TES games?  One of the major features is that you can hit/attack/kill anything at any time and take everything on its corpse, as long as you understand you might be breaking the law and end up imprisoned.  That sounds like FFA PVP to me with a robust crime and punishment system.

If you meant Free-For-All PvP and you phrased it differently then I apologize.

 

That sounds like a robust PvE system to me tbh. I certainly have not played a single TES game where I had to PvP.

This title going the lazy 'cheap filler content' route of having a PvP focus will see it alienating a large part of it's single RPG player base IMO. I think that a PvE co-op model would have served them better, and attracted a more loyal (and genrally more decent) player base.

 

 

 

 

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/27/12 3:30:26 PM#43
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint

@Vesavius: How would it make sense for a TES MMO to be PvP free?  I assume you mean no PvP at all?  Have you played any TES games?  One of the major features is that you can hit/attack/kill anything at any time and take everything on its corpse, as long as you understand you might be breaking the law and end up imprisoned.  That sounds like FFA PVP to me with a robust crime and punishment system.

If you meant Free-For-All PvP and you phrased it differently then I apologize.

 

That sounds like a robust PvE system to me tbh. I certainly have not played a single TES game where I had to PvP.

This title going the lazy 'cheap filler content' route of having a PvP focus will see it alienating a large part of it's single RPG player base IMO. I think that a PvE co-op model would have served them better, and attracted a more loyal (and genrally more decent) player base.

 

 

I disagree, I think not having FFA PVP will do that. Most TES players will expect they can hurt ANYTHING.  You are making too much of a distinction between PVE and PVP.  All of TES games are PVE so the example is irrelevant.  The point is, if it moves, you can kill it.  Doesn't matter if its AI or happens to be a player, it would be a lot stranger if you could kill any NPC/AI and NOT kill any player.  What kind of strange protection magic is this?!  Molag Bal truly is a dastardly trickster!

TES is a pretty harsh world all-in-all, and if you get rid of PVP completely you lose the danger associated with that.  Then again, if you relegate it to an end-game PvP instance you do that anyway.

Honestly, FFA is the only way I see TES players being comfortable, as long as outright murdering someone had similar consequences as it does in single-player TES games.  Not that they'd necessarily go all PK-happy, but that lack of danger takes away a large amount of the depth and layers to the TES experience.

I do agree with what I highlighted in gold though.

EDIT: As someone who has played TES since Arena, I would be weirded out if there were people running around ina  TES MMO who were utterly invulnerable to my attacks for some game-y, immersion-breaking reason.

Granted I'm usually not a serial killer in TES games like MANY MANY people are (you should hear Todd Howard talk about it), but sometimes steel is more convincing than words.

You can't make the distinction that a single-player game is PvE.  That doesn't make sense.  It is just Single-Player.  It is irrelevent whether you are fighting players or AI because there is only one choice.

In a seamless online world, there should be as little difference between AI/NPCs as actual players.  If immersion is the focus (which it absolutely should be in a TES MMO) then they should be as indistinguishable as possible, thus not affording players any unexplained magical immunity that NPCs do not have.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

6/27/12 3:31:01 PM#44
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint

@Vesavius: How would it make sense for a TES MMO to be PvP free?  I assume you mean no PvP at all?  Have you played any TES games?  One of the major features is that you can hit/attack/kill anything at any time and take everything on its corpse, as long as you understand you might be breaking the law and end up imprisoned.  That sounds like FFA PVP to me with a robust crime and punishment system.

If you meant Free-For-All PvP and you phrased it differently then I apologize.

 

That sounds like a robust PvE system to me tbh. I certainly have not played a single TES game where I had to PvP.

This title going the lazy 'cheap filler content' route of having a PvP focus will see it alienating a large part of it's single RPG player base IMO. I think that a PvE co-op model would have served them better, and attracted a more loyal (and genrally more decent) player base.

 

 

making the connection between how TES works as a single player game and a FFA PvP game is about as obvious as big hair in a Dallas morning Church. Its a pefectly blindly extreemly obviously clear connection between the two. In fact I would not be surprised to learn that the entire idea of FFA PvP came from TES games orginally.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/27/12 3:39:23 PM#45
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint

@Vesavius: How would it make sense for a TES MMO to be PvP free?  I assume you mean no PvP at all?  Have you played any TES games?  One of the major features is that you can hit/attack/kill anything at any time and take everything on its corpse, as long as you understand you might be breaking the law and end up imprisoned.  That sounds like FFA PVP to me with a robust crime and punishment system.

If you meant Free-For-All PvP and you phrased it differently then I apologize.

 

That sounds like a robust PvE system to me tbh. I certainly have not played a single TES game where I had to PvP.

This title going the lazy 'cheap filler content' route of having a PvP focus will see it alienating a large part of it's single RPG player base IMO. I think that a PvE co-op model would have served them better, and attracted a more loyal (and genrally more decent) player base.

I disagree, I think not having FFA PVP will do that. Most TES players will expect they can hurt ANYTHING.

The truth is Skyrim has sold 10+ KK units... as a single player PvE RPG. What will TESO shift as a PvP focused game? Maybe, at the outside, 1kk copies?. This should be giving the Zenimax a little hint about what the mass audience is actually looking for. 

You are making too much of a distinction between PVE and PVP. 

Not in terms of market I am not.

TES is a pretty harsh world all-in-all, and if you get rid of PVP completely you lose the danger associated with that. 

You might lose the danger attached to the threat of repeated ganking, but that's not what a PvE player is looking for anyhow.

Honestly, FFA is the only way I see TES players being comfortable

Really? You mean all those literal millions of TES players that choose to play the PvE RPG?

Obviously I disagree.

I do agree with what I highlighted in gold though.

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/27/12 3:56:25 PM#46
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint

@Vesavius: How would it make sense for a TES MMO to be PvP free?  I assume you mean no PvP at all?  Have you played any TES games?  One of the major features is that you can hit/attack/kill anything at any time and take everything on its corpse, as long as you understand you might be breaking the law and end up imprisoned.  That sounds like FFA PVP to me with a robust crime and punishment system.

If you meant Free-For-All PvP and you phrased it differently then I apologize.

 

That sounds like a robust PvE system to me tbh. I certainly have not played a single TES game where I had to PvP.

This title going the lazy 'cheap filler content' route of having a PvP focus will see it alienating a large part of it's single RPG player base IMO. I think that a PvE co-op model would have served them better, and attracted a more loyal (and genrally more decent) player base.

I disagree, I think not having FFA PVP will do that. Most TES players will expect they can hurt ANYTHING.

The truth is Skyrim has sold 10+ KK units... as a single player PvE RPG. What will TESO shift as a PvP focused game? Maybe, at the outside, 1kk copies?. This should be giving the Zenimax a little hint about what the mass audience is actually looking for. 

You are making too much of a distinction between PVE and PVP. 

Not in terms of market I am not.

TES is a pretty harsh world all-in-all, and if you get rid of PVP completely you lose the danger associated with that. 

No, just not true.

Honestly, FFA is the only way I see TES players being comfortable

Really? You mean all those literal millions of TES players that choose to play the PvE RPG?

Obviously I disagree.

I do agree with what I highlighted in gold though.

Ah, I saw your edit too late.  But I'll reiterate.

As someone who has played TES since Arena, I would be weirded out if there were people running around in a TES MMO (read: world) who were utterly invulnerable to my attacks for some game-y, immersion-breaking reason.

Granted I'm usually not a serial killer in TES games like MANY MANY people are (you should hear Todd Howard talk about it "Usually the first thing people want to do is kill everyone in sight"), but sometimes steel is more convincing than words.

You can't make the distinction that a single-player game is PvE.  That doesn't make sense.  It is just Single-Player.  It is irrelevent whether you are fighting players or AI because there is only one choice.  Very few people who play TES think of it in those terms unless they are avid MMO players.  If someone calls a creature in an SP game a "MOB" you know they play MMOs.

In a seamless online world, there should be as little difference between AI/NPCs as actual players.  If immersion is the focus (which it absolutely should be in a TES MMO) then they should be as indistinguishable as possible, thus not affording players any unexplained magical immunity that NPCs do not have.

I totally agree that ESO will sell very little incomparison to its fanbase, but even 1 million is an over-estimate in my view.  That can be attributed to the fact that the majority of TES players however, are console-based (approximately 25% are pc-based since Skyrim's release, it was 18% for Oblivion).  Cross-pollination could happen, but right now there is little to motivate them to do so. 

However, the PvP is not something, regardless of how its handled, that will turn anyone away, it's the fact that it doesn't play and feel like a TES game in general that will do that.

I can't agree that Tamriel is not a harsh world, outside of Oblivion (arguably the least harsh but still not exactly candyland) the other games have been incredibly dangerous.  Jumped by assassins, bandits, wolves, nix hounds, cliff racers, at every turn.  One-shot smashed by giants if you get too close.  Ever played the intro dungeon in Daggerfall?  That was HARSH.

I don't think one could consider TES a very care-bear RPG, unless they play on Novice difficulty I guess. But that's just no fun, no danger, no tension, no risk and no reward.

I will concede this: the smartest thing they could do, is have FFA PVP servers and PVE servers.  Then they maximize the player-base.  While I don't think your view is in the majority, I'm sure you are not alone.  I also don't think my view is the majority either.  I simply don't think the majority of TES fans make the distinction.  I'm pretty sure the sentiment from the majority would be "I don't necessarily want to kill everyone I meet, but its nice to know I can."

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

6/27/12 4:03:22 PM#47
Originally posted by Entinerint

Ah, I saw your edit too late.  But I'll reiterate.

As someone who has played TES since Arena, I would be weirded out if there were people running around in a TES MMO (read: world) who were utterly invulnerable to my attacks for some game-y, immersion-breaking reason.

Granted I'm usually not a serial killer in TES games like MANY MANY people are (you should hear Todd Howard talk about it "The first thing people want to do is kill everyone in sight"), but sometimes steel is more convincing than words.

You can't make the distinction that a single-player game is PvE.  That doesn't make sense.  It is just Single-Player.  It is irrelevent whether you are fighting players or AI because there is only one choice.  Very few people who play TES think of it in those terms unless they are avid MMO players.  If someone calls a creature in an SP game a "MOB" you know they play MMOs.

In a seamless online world, there should be as little difference between AI/NPCs as actual players.  If immersion is the focus (which it absolutely should be in a TES MMO) then they should be as indistinguishable as possible, thus not affording players any unexplained magical immunity that NPCs do not have.

I totally agree that ESO will sell very little incomparison to its fanbase, but even 1 million is an over-estimate in my view.  That can be attributed to the fact that the majority of TES players however, are console-based (approximately 25% are pc-based since Skyrim's release, it was 18% for Oblivion).  Cross-polination could happen, but right now there is little to motivate them to do so. 

However, the PvP is not something, regardless of how its handled, that will turn anyone away, it's the fact that it doesn't play and feel like a TES game in general that will do that.

I can't agree that Tamriel is not a harsh world, outside of Oblivion (arguably the least harsh but still not exactly candyland) the other games have been incredibly dangerous.  Jumped by assassins, bandits, wolves, nix hounds, cliff racers, at every turn.  One-shot smashed by giants if you get too close.  Ever played the intro dungeon in Daggerfall?  That was HARSH.

I don't think one could consider TES a very care-bear RPG, unless they play on Novice difficulty I guess. But that's just no fun, no danger, no tension, no risk and no reward.

I will concede this: the smartest thing they could do, is have FFA PVP servers and PVE servers.  Then they maximize the player-base.  While I don't think your view is in the majority, I'm sure you are not alone.  I also don't think my view is the majority either.  I simply don't think the majority of TES fans make the distinction.  I'm pretty sure the sentiment from the majority would be "I don't necessarily want to kill everyone I meet, but its nice to know I can."

I would actually be surprised to learn that the idea of FFA PvP didnt orginate from TES game play.

its that close of a connection between the two and I honestly do not believe people can not see how obvious it is but I suppose for those with less diverse gaming experience it might be possible

Correlation does not imply causation

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/27/12 4:06:25 PM#48
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Entinerint

Ah, I saw your edit too late.  But I'll reiterate.

As someone who has played TES since Arena, I would be weirded out if there were people running around in a TES MMO (read: world) who were utterly invulnerable to my attacks for some game-y, immersion-breaking reason.

Granted I'm usually not a serial killer in TES games like MANY MANY people are (you should hear Todd Howard talk about it "The first thing people want to do is kill everyone in sight"), but sometimes steel is more convincing than words.

You can't make the distinction that a single-player game is PvE.  That doesn't make sense.  It is just Single-Player.  It is irrelevent whether you are fighting players or AI because there is only one choice.  Very few people who play TES think of it in those terms unless they are avid MMO players.  If someone calls a creature in an SP game a "MOB" you know they play MMOs.

In a seamless online world, there should be as little difference between AI/NPCs as actual players.  If immersion is the focus (which it absolutely should be in a TES MMO) then they should be as indistinguishable as possible, thus not affording players any unexplained magical immunity that NPCs do not have.

I totally agree that ESO will sell very little incomparison to its fanbase, but even 1 million is an over-estimate in my view.  That can be attributed to the fact that the majority of TES players however, are console-based (approximately 25% are pc-based since Skyrim's release, it was 18% for Oblivion).  Cross-polination could happen, but right now there is little to motivate them to do so. 

However, the PvP is not something, regardless of how its handled, that will turn anyone away, it's the fact that it doesn't play and feel like a TES game in general that will do that.

I can't agree that Tamriel is not a harsh world, outside of Oblivion (arguably the least harsh but still not exactly candyland) the other games have been incredibly dangerous.  Jumped by assassins, bandits, wolves, nix hounds, cliff racers, at every turn.  One-shot smashed by giants if you get too close.  Ever played the intro dungeon in Daggerfall?  That was HARSH.

I don't think one could consider TES a very care-bear RPG, unless they play on Novice difficulty I guess. But that's just no fun, no danger, no tension, no risk and no reward.

I will concede this: the smartest thing they could do, is have FFA PVP servers and PVE servers.  Then they maximize the player-base.  While I don't think your view is in the majority, I'm sure you are not alone.  I also don't think my view is the majority either.  I simply don't think the majority of TES fans make the distinction.  I'm pretty sure the sentiment from the majority would be "I don't necessarily want to kill everyone I meet, but its nice to know I can."

I would actually be surprised to learn that the idea of FFA PvP didnt orginate from TES game play.

its that close of a connection between the two and I honestly do not believe people can not see how obvious it is but I suppose for those with less diverse gaming experience it might be possible

It did actually.

The first 3D MMORPG was Meridian 59, released in 1997.  The designer specifically said he wanted to make a Daggerfall Online-like game.

It is a first-person, twitch combat, FFA full-loot MMORPG.  Before even Ultima Online.

The Darkfall devs at Aventurine have never been shy about saying that the spark of their game was wanting to see an MMORPG based on Morrowind all the way back in 2001.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

6/27/12 4:07:59 PM#49
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Entinerint

Ah, I saw your edit too late.  But I'll reiterate.

As someone who has played TES since Arena, I would be weirded out if there were people running around in a TES MMO (read: world) who were utterly invulnerable to my attacks for some game-y, immersion-breaking reason.

Granted I'm usually not a serial killer in TES games like MANY MANY people are (you should hear Todd Howard talk about it "The first thing people want to do is kill everyone in sight"), but sometimes steel is more convincing than words.

You can't make the distinction that a single-player game is PvE.  That doesn't make sense.  It is just Single-Player.  It is irrelevent whether you are fighting players or AI because there is only one choice.  Very few people who play TES think of it in those terms unless they are avid MMO players.  If someone calls a creature in an SP game a "MOB" you know they play MMOs.

In a seamless online world, there should be as little difference between AI/NPCs as actual players.  If immersion is the focus (which it absolutely should be in a TES MMO) then they should be as indistinguishable as possible, thus not affording players any unexplained magical immunity that NPCs do not have.

I totally agree that ESO will sell very little incomparison to its fanbase, but even 1 million is an over-estimate in my view.  That can be attributed to the fact that the majority of TES players however, are console-based (approximately 25% are pc-based since Skyrim's release, it was 18% for Oblivion).  Cross-polination could happen, but right now there is little to motivate them to do so. 

However, the PvP is not something, regardless of how its handled, that will turn anyone away, it's the fact that it doesn't play and feel like a TES game in general that will do that.

I can't agree that Tamriel is not a harsh world, outside of Oblivion (arguably the least harsh but still not exactly candyland) the other games have been incredibly dangerous.  Jumped by assassins, bandits, wolves, nix hounds, cliff racers, at every turn.  One-shot smashed by giants if you get too close.  Ever played the intro dungeon in Daggerfall?  That was HARSH.

I don't think one could consider TES a very care-bear RPG, unless they play on Novice difficulty I guess. But that's just no fun, no danger, no tension, no risk and no reward.

I will concede this: the smartest thing they could do, is have FFA PVP servers and PVE servers.  Then they maximize the player-base.  While I don't think your view is in the majority, I'm sure you are not alone.  I also don't think my view is the majority either.  I simply don't think the majority of TES fans make the distinction.  I'm pretty sure the sentiment from the majority would be "I don't necessarily want to kill everyone I meet, but its nice to know I can."

I would actually be surprised to learn that the idea of FFA PvP didnt orginate from TES game play.

its that close of a connection between the two and I honestly do not believe people can not see how obvious it is but I suppose for those with less diverse gaming experience it might be possible

It did actually.

The first 3D MMORPG was Meridian 59, released in 1997.  The designers specifically said they wanted to make a Daggerfall Online-like game.

It is a first-person, twitch combat, FFA full-loot MMORPG.  Before even Ultima Online.

The Darkfall devs at Aventurine have never been shy about saying that the spark of their game was wanting to see an MMORPG based on Morrowind all the way back in 2001.

sold me.

not sure why people dont make the obvious connection between being able to steal everything in a game and FFA PvP.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/27/12 4:12:02 PM#50
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Entinerint

Ah, I saw your edit too late.  But I'll reiterate.

As someone who has played TES since Arena, I would be weirded out if there were people running around in a TES MMO (read: world) who were utterly invulnerable to my attacks for some game-y, immersion-breaking reason.

Granted I'm usually not a serial killer in TES games like MANY MANY people are (you should hear Todd Howard talk about it "The first thing people want to do is kill everyone in sight"), but sometimes steel is more convincing than words.

You can't make the distinction that a single-player game is PvE.  That doesn't make sense.  It is just Single-Player.  It is irrelevent whether you are fighting players or AI because there is only one choice.  Very few people who play TES think of it in those terms unless they are avid MMO players.  If someone calls a creature in an SP game a "MOB" you know they play MMOs.

In a seamless online world, there should be as little difference between AI/NPCs as actual players.  If immersion is the focus (which it absolutely should be in a TES MMO) then they should be as indistinguishable as possible, thus not affording players any unexplained magical immunity that NPCs do not have.

I totally agree that ESO will sell very little incomparison to its fanbase, but even 1 million is an over-estimate in my view.  That can be attributed to the fact that the majority of TES players however, are console-based (approximately 25% are pc-based since Skyrim's release, it was 18% for Oblivion).  Cross-polination could happen, but right now there is little to motivate them to do so. 

However, the PvP is not something, regardless of how its handled, that will turn anyone away, it's the fact that it doesn't play and feel like a TES game in general that will do that.

I can't agree that Tamriel is not a harsh world, outside of Oblivion (arguably the least harsh but still not exactly candyland) the other games have been incredibly dangerous.  Jumped by assassins, bandits, wolves, nix hounds, cliff racers, at every turn.  One-shot smashed by giants if you get too close.  Ever played the intro dungeon in Daggerfall?  That was HARSH.

I don't think one could consider TES a very care-bear RPG, unless they play on Novice difficulty I guess. But that's just no fun, no danger, no tension, no risk and no reward.

I will concede this: the smartest thing they could do, is have FFA PVP servers and PVE servers.  Then they maximize the player-base.  While I don't think your view is in the majority, I'm sure you are not alone.  I also don't think my view is the majority either.  I simply don't think the majority of TES fans make the distinction.  I'm pretty sure the sentiment from the majority would be "I don't necessarily want to kill everyone I meet, but its nice to know I can."

I would actually be surprised to learn that the idea of FFA PvP didnt orginate from TES game play.

its that close of a connection between the two and I honestly do not believe people can not see how obvious it is but I suppose for those with less diverse gaming experience it might be possible

It did actually.

The first 3D MMORPG was Meridian 59, released in 1997.  The designers specifically said they wanted to make a Daggerfall Online-like game.

It is a first-person, twitch combat, FFA full-loot MMORPG.  Before even Ultima Online.

The Darkfall devs at Aventurine have never been shy about saying that the spark of their game was wanting to see an MMORPG based on Morrowind all the way back in 2001.

sold me.

not sure why people dont make the obvious connection between being able to steal everything in a game and FFA PvP.

Added pix ;)

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/27/12 4:23:51 PM#51
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint

@Vesavius: How would it make sense for a TES MMO to be PvP free?  I assume you mean no PvP at all?  Have you played any TES games?  One of the major features is that you can hit/attack/kill anything at any time and take everything on its corpse, as long as you understand you might be breaking the law and end up imprisoned.  That sounds like FFA PVP to me with a robust crime and punishment system.

If you meant Free-For-All PvP and you phrased it differently then I apologize.

 

That sounds like a robust PvE system to me tbh. I certainly have not played a single TES game where I had to PvP.

This title going the lazy 'cheap filler content' route of having a PvP focus will see it alienating a large part of it's single RPG player base IMO. I think that a PvE co-op model would have served them better, and attracted a more loyal (and genrally more decent) player base.

I disagree, I think not having FFA PVP will do that. Most TES players will expect they can hurt ANYTHING.

The truth is Skyrim has sold 10+ KK units... as a single player PvE RPG. What will TESO shift as a PvP focused game? Maybe, at the outside, 1kk copies?. This should be giving the Zenimax a little hint about what the mass audience is actually looking for. 

You are making too much of a distinction between PVE and PVP. 

Not in terms of market I am not.

TES is a pretty harsh world all-in-all, and if you get rid of PVP completely you lose the danger associated with that. 

You might lose the danger attached to the threat of repeated ganking, but that's not what a PvE player is looking for anyhow. 

Honestly, FFA is the only way I see TES players being comfortable

Really? You mean all those literal millions of TES players that choose to play the PvE RPG?

Obviously I disagree.

I do agree with what I highlighted in gold though.

Ah, I saw your edit too late.  But I'll reiterate.

NPs, I just did it to clarify what I meant is all. I will amend it here to help cut down on confusion.

You can't make the distinction that a single-player game is PvE.  That doesn't make sense. 

Again, it does in terms of market.

Customers chose to buy and play a PvE game over one of the FFA PvP ones on offer in their millions.

If FFA PvP is such a requirement to so many, not just yourself, then why has no FFA PvP game sold in these kind of numbers?

Is it a fair assumption that the majority of Skyrim players have never played a FFA PvP MMORPG, simply because that style of game does not appeal to them?

I totally agree that ESO will sell very little incomparison to its fanbase, but even 1 million is an over-estimate in my view.  That can be attributed to the fact that the majority of TES players however, are console-based (approximately 25% are pc-based since Skyrim's release, it was 18% for Oblivion).  Cross-polination could happen, but right now there is little to motivate them to do so. 

Skyrim sold stacks on the PC, it was a MAJOR hit. I think it was selling three units for every one of other titles for a month or two and is the fastest selling title on Steam ever.

All without PvP.

Going by your own figure of 25%, though I haven't seen that anywhere myself, that means at least 2.5kk units of Skyrim sold on the PC.

However, the PvP is not something, regardless of how its handled, that will turn anyone away.

You honestly think the love of PvP is universal? I am not quite sure what to say to that... Except that I think you are very very wrong.

I don't think one could consider TES a very care-bear RPG

'Carebear'? That term is usually meant to describe pure PvEers... by it's very definition Skyrim is a carebear game.

I will concede this: the smartest thing they could do, is have FFA PVP servers and PVE servers.  Then they maximize the player-base.

Yeah, this would be their best bet at this point in terms of market, but in a game leaning so seemingly heavy on PvP filler content I doubt that they have enough PvE content in place to make this viable. We shall see.

 

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/27/12 4:50:29 PM#52
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Entinerint

@Vesavius: How would it make sense for a TES MMO to be PvP free?  I assume you mean no PvP at all?  Have you played any TES games?  One of the major features is that you can hit/attack/kill anything at any time and take everything on its corpse, as long as you understand you might be breaking the law and end up imprisoned.  That sounds like FFA PVP to me with a robust crime and punishment system.

If you meant Free-For-All PvP and you phrased it differently then I apologize.

 

That sounds like a robust PvE system to me tbh. I certainly have not played a single TES game where I had to PvP.

This title going the lazy 'cheap filler content' route of having a PvP focus will see it alienating a large part of it's single RPG player base IMO. I think that a PvE co-op model would have served them better, and attracted a more loyal (and genrally more decent) player base.

I disagree, I think not having FFA PVP will do that. Most TES players will expect they can hurt ANYTHING.

The truth is Skyrim has sold 10+ KK units... as a single player PvE RPG. What will TESO shift as a PvP focused game? Maybe, at the outside, 1kk copies?. This should be giving the Zenimax a little hint about what the mass audience is actually looking for. 

You are making too much of a distinction between PVE and PVP. 

Not in terms of market I am not.

TES is a pretty harsh world all-in-all, and if you get rid of PVP completely you lose the danger associated with that. 

You might lose the danger attached to the threat of repeated ganking, but that's not what a PvE player is looking for anyhow. 

Honestly, FFA is the only way I see TES players being comfortable

Really? You mean all those literal millions of TES players that choose to play the PvE RPG?

Obviously I disagree.

I do agree with what I highlighted in gold though.

Ah, I saw your edit too late.  But I'll reiterate.

NPs, I just did it to clarify what I meant is all. I will amend it here to help cut down on confusion.

You can't make the distinction that a single-player game is PvE.  That doesn't make sense. 

Again, it does in terms of market.

Customers chose to buy and play a PvE game over one of the FFA PvP ones on offer in their millions.

If FFA PvP is such a requirement to so many, not just yourself, then why has no FFA PvP game sold in these kind of numbers?

Is it a fair assumption that the majority of Skyrim players have never played a FFA PvP MMORPG, simply because that style of game does not appeal to them?

I totally agree that ESO will sell very little incomparison to its fanbase, but even 1 million is an over-estimate in my view.  That can be attributed to the fact that the majority of TES players however, are console-based (approximately 25% are pc-based since Skyrim's release, it was 18% for Oblivion).  Cross-polination could happen, but right now there is little to motivate them to do so. 

Skyrim sold stacks on the PC, it was a MAJOR hit. I think it was selling three units for every one of other titles for a month or two and is the fastest selling title on Steam ever.

All without PvP.

Going by your own figure of 25%, though I haven't seen that anywhere myself, that means at least 2.5kk units of Skyrim sold on the PC.

However, the PvP is not something, regardless of how its handled, that will turn anyone away.

You honestly think the love of PvP is universal? I am not quite sure what to say to that... Except that I think you are very very wrong.

I don't think one could consider TES a very care-bear RPG

'Carebear'? That term is usually meant to describe pure PvEers... by it's very definition Skyrim is a carebear game.

I will concede this: the smartest thing they could do, is have FFA PVP servers and PVE servers.  Then they maximize the player-base.

Yeah, this would be their best bet at this point in terms of market, but in a game leaning so seemingly heavy on PvP filler content I doubt that they have enough PvE content in place to make this viable. We shall see.

 

Yes it did sell a ton, but again, we're not even talking about PVE, we're just talking about single-player.  PVE implies a choice.  Single-player gives one no choice and so the distinction, again, is irrelevant, especially in terms of market.

No one classifies single-player games as PVE, that term is solely reserved for MMOs.  Conceptually there are some similarities, but in practice, and in terms of player psychology, there is a wide gap.  PVE and PVP aren't even distinctions in the online/offline shooter market.

I'm also well aware that many people dislike PvP, and that's all well and good.  But that, in my view, doesn't fit very well in the realm of a TES MMORPG.

The difference isn't whether you can hurt other people or not for most fans of single-player, it is the very presence of other people to begin with.

I've heard argue, from many a TES fan (including Todd Howard himself), regardng how much they simply don't want anyone else in that world with them.  They want to feel special, feel like the center of that experience.  That's part of the reason why we have yet to see a co-op in TES, with or without the ability to beat on the other players.

The game will not sell to everyone on the PC for that reason, as well as the reason that ESO simply does not play or feel like TES, and does not afford them the freedoms they so enjoy.

What we have to really deal with, is the fact that Matt Firor and his cronies are taking the TES lore and stretching it over the DAOC design, hoping it will fit.

It won't.  We may disagree on why it won't, but we definitely agree that it will utterly fall flat due to their failure to understand the TES audience.

And instead of care-bear, because you have a point there, I will substitute the term "casual."  It is not a casual RPG franchise in my view.

EDIT: There are also a myriad of other reasons why people choose PVE games over PVP games or vice versa.  Some people flat out refuse to play games without PvP.  To each their own, BUT most FFA games are unsuccessful for the lack of budget, marketing presence, and brand recognition, not because of their feature set.

EVE online is the exception to this rule.  They had one hell of a marketing team and budget that really helped them push their game out there.  Now it is one of the highest-subscribed MMOs on the market.

The point here is that PvE and PvP games are a dime a dozen, but TES is the one major AAA IP that could promote a justifiable FFA play-style in a big-market game.

Those single-player people are not coming anyway, no matter how co-op the MMO is, so better to push it toward the feeling of TES than hold it back in some way (though, as I said, I totally support different server rules).

  Fearum

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

6/27/12 8:36:49 PM#53

Every game has BG's, not much a suprise there as alot of people like that feature in a game. They are all optional though, so what is the problem in a game?

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/28/12 12:16:50 AM#54
Originally posted by Fearum

Every game has BG's, not much a suprise there as alot of people like that feature in a game. They are all optional though, so what is the problem in a game?

Not every game has BG's.  Not even every MMO.  Not even every MMORPG.  Not even every fantasy MMORPG.  Not even every successful fantasy MMORPG.  Not even every successful AAA fantasy MMORPG.  That's the whole point of the thread.

It isn't that it has or doesn't have BGs, Arenas, Raids, or whathaveyou, it is the "of course" mentality that the devs display, which undercuts them making an MMORPG in the spirit of TES.

"Of course it has hotbar cool-down combat, it's an MMO!" <- This is an example of the MOST wrong and why AAA MMOs are, for the most part, stuck in the "WoW-clone" rut.

  Fearum

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

6/28/12 12:47:08 AM#55
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Fearum

Every game has BG's, not much a suprise there as alot of people like that feature in a game. They are all optional though, so what is the problem in a game?

Not every game has BG's.  Not even every MMO.  Not even every MMORPG.  Not even every fantasy MMORPG.  Not even every successful fantasy MMORPG.  Not even every successful AAA fantasy MMORPG.  That's the whole point of the thread.

It isn't that it has or doesn't have BGs, Arenas, Raids, or whathaveyou, it is the "of course" mentality that the devs display, which undercuts them making an MMORPG in the spirit of TES.

"Of course it has hotbar cool-down combat, it's an MMO!" <- This is an example of the MOST wrong and why AAA MMOs are, for the most part, stuck in the "WoW-clone" rut.

What is the spirit of TES? Im sure some other fan would have their own opinion of what the spirit of TES is then you. Who's right?

Is Coke better than Pepsi? I like Coke more so there I win lol :P

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/28/12 5:55:35 AM#56
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Fearum

Every game has BG's, not much a suprise there as alot of people like that feature in a game. They are all optional though, so what is the problem in a game?

Not every game has BG's.  Not even every MMO.  Not even every MMORPG.  Not even every fantasy MMORPG.  Not even every successful fantasy MMORPG.  Not even every successful AAA fantasy MMORPG.  That's the whole point of the thread.

It isn't that it has or doesn't have BGs, Arenas, Raids, or whathaveyou, it is the "of course" mentality that the devs display, which undercuts them making an MMORPG in the spirit of TES.

"Of course it has hotbar cool-down combat, it's an MMO!" <- This is an example of the MOST wrong and why AAA MMOs are, for the most part, stuck in the "WoW-clone" rut.

What is the spirit of TES? Im sure some other fan would have their own opinion of what the spirit of TES is then you. Who's right?

Is Coke better than Pepsi? I like Coke more so there I win lol :P

I also like Coke better, so we both win, and worldwide sales back up our stance. hehehe

The spirit of TES is not a subjective thing.  It is not something I have defined in my mind.  It is something that the creators and designers of past TES games have set forth for us.

It is not just real-time combat with a first-person view.

It is not just an open-ended world where we can choose our own adventure.

It is not just the rich lore of Nirn and the people who inhabit her.

It is not player housing, or custom classes, or a gritty, realistic art-style, or skill-based progression, or racial freedom from factions, or birthsigns, or Daedra, or the Dark Brotherhood, or Umbra...

It is all of those things, and much more, together as one whole experience.

Whenever Todd Howard is asked what makes TES special, he doesn't talk about the unique things his game does that no other RPG series even strives for (although there are quite a few).  He talks about the experience as a whole.  The feeling of being in a TES game that is so very different from that of any other game.  The spirit of TES.  It is incomparable, and it could have been incredible in an MMO format.

Alas, I suppose we shall never see that happen...

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

6/28/12 7:57:57 AM#57
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Fearum

Every game has BG's, not much a suprise there as alot of people like that feature in a game. They are all optional though, so what is the problem in a game?

Not every game has BG's.  Not even every MMO.  Not even every MMORPG.  Not even every fantasy MMORPG.  Not even every successful fantasy MMORPG.  Not even every successful AAA fantasy MMORPG.  That's the whole point of the thread.

It isn't that it has or doesn't have BGs, Arenas, Raids, or whathaveyou, it is the "of course" mentality that the devs display, which undercuts them making an MMORPG in the spirit of TES.

"Of course it has hotbar cool-down combat, it's an MMO!" <- This is an example of the MOST wrong and why AAA MMOs are, for the most part, stuck in the "WoW-clone" rut.

What is the spirit of TES? Im sure some other fan would have their own opinion of what the spirit of TES is then you. Who's right?

Is Coke better than Pepsi? I like Coke more so there I win lol :P

I also like Coke better, so we both win, and worldwide sales back up our stance. hehehe

The spirit of TES is not a subjective thing.  It is not something I have defined in my mind.  It is something that the creators and designers of past TES games have set forth for us.

It is not just real-time combat with a first-person view.

It is not just an open-ended world where we can choose our own adventure.

It is not just the rich lore of Nirn and the people who inhabit her.

It is not player housing, or custom classes, or a gritty, realistic art-style, or skill-based progression, or racial freedom from factions, or birthsigns, or Daedra, or the Dark Brotherhood, or Umbra...

It is all of those things, and much more, together as one whole experience.

Whenever Todd Howard is asked what makes TES special, he doesn't talk about the unique things his game does that no other RPG series even strives for (although there are quite a few).  He talks about the experience as a whole.  The feeling of being in a TES game that is so very different from that of any other game.  The spirit of TES.  It is incomparable, and it could have been incredible in an MMO format.

Alas, I suppose we shall never see that happen...

comparing what is planned for TES to what core players want to coke or pepsi is being disingenuous on his part. The only thing the two have remotely in common is that they are both liquid. So I dont know maybe something like the difference between tea and larger beer? just using one randomly

Correlation does not imply causation

  ste2000

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4734

6/28/12 12:30:45 PM#58
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Terronte

I hate to break it to everyone all excited about another IP being made into an MMO. It's not going to be what you want. It's going to be your favorite IP slathered over a WoW base..with some sort of twist so they can say it's innovative. You heard it here first.

I hate to break it to you but all MMO with Battlegrounds apart from WOW failed miserably, so it is not essential for any MMO, let alone a TES one.

 

...and which ones with open world PvP have done any better?

The same argument, as in the red, could be made for any kind of PvP in any MMORPG.

Especially a TES one, which by rights should be PvP free right from the start.

 

The focus of PvP in these games has turned the gaming culture of them into a cesspit.

I didn't say that open PvP is the solution, but certainly suits TES better.

I was  answering those people who think that not having instance battlegrounds is a sacrilege, when in fact none of the recent AAA MMOs with battlegrounds has been a success.

If it was me I would make TESO just PvE only...........but I know it ain't gonna happen, so I accept there will be some  PvP.

I just hope there won't be none of that instanced PvP crap (Arena, battlegrounds).

For me is game breaking. I am not gonna buy the game if BG or Arenas are in it.

  Fearum

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

6/28/12 1:56:23 PM#59
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Terronte

I hate to break it to everyone all excited about another IP being made into an MMO. It's not going to be what you want. It's going to be your favorite IP slathered over a WoW base..with some sort of twist so they can say it's innovative. You heard it here first.

I hate to break it to you but all MMO with Battlegrounds apart from WOW failed miserably, so it is not essential for any MMO, let alone a TES one.

 

...and which ones with open world PvP have done any better?

The same argument, as in the red, could be made for any kind of PvP in any MMORPG.

Especially a TES one, which by rights should be PvP free right from the start.

 

The focus of PvP in these games has turned the gaming culture of them into a cesspit.

I didn't say that open PvP is the solution, but certainly suits TES better.

I was  answering those people who think that not having instance battlegrounds is a sacrilege, when in fact none of the recent AAA MMOs with battlegrounds has been a success.

If it was me I would make TESO just PvE only...........but I know it ain't gonna happen, so I accept there will be some  PvP.

I just hope there won't be none of that instanced PvP crap (Arena, battlegrounds).

For me is game breaking. I am not gonna buy the game if BG or Arenas are in it.

From your previous posts, it looks like you got GW2 and Tera. GW2 has BG's and read some where that Tera is going to implement them soon.

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/28/12 4:11:24 PM#60
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Terronte

I hate to break it to everyone all excited about another IP being made into an MMO. It's not going to be what you want. It's going to be your favorite IP slathered over a WoW base..with some sort of twist so they can say it's innovative. You heard it here first.

I hate to break it to you but all MMO with Battlegrounds apart from WOW failed miserably, so it is not essential for any MMO, let alone a TES one.

 

...and which ones with open world PvP have done any better?

The same argument, as in the red, could be made for any kind of PvP in any MMORPG.

Especially a TES one, which by rights should be PvP free right from the start.

 

The focus of PvP in these games has turned the gaming culture of them into a cesspit.

I didn't say that open PvP is the solution, but certainly suits TES better.

I was  answering those people who think that not having instance battlegrounds is a sacrilege, when in fact none of the recent AAA MMOs with battlegrounds has been a success.

If it was me I would make TESO just PvE only...........but I know it ain't gonna happen, so I accept there will be some  PvP.

I just hope there won't be none of that instanced PvP crap (Arena, battlegrounds).

For me is game breaking. I am not gonna buy the game if BG or Arenas are in it.

From your previous posts, it looks like you got GW2 and Tera. GW2 has BG's and read some where that Tera is going to implement them soon.

neither of those games are based on the TES IP and are therefore irrelevant to this particular discussion.

Look at what he said in Red.  It has nothing to do with whether BGs are good or bad, it's whether they fit in with TES or not.

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