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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » An important character dimension is vanishing.

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126 posts found
  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1427

6/26/12 4:18:07 PM#81


Originally posted by EricDanie
We must go deeper.

The "problem" is killing a rat and looting a two-handed sword, killing a dragon and looting a full set of shiny new armor.

We should be looting scales, teeth, fangs, etc, for use in a crafting system that would be the only source of PvE equipment (exchanging PvP tokens seems perfectly fine). From that point it would become a lot easier to handle inventory logic without creating a huge hassle for players (a realistic inventory without a realistic loot system wouldn't work - you'd kill monsters for like 10 minutes and get overburdened with 5 shields on your backpack. It's the reason I love the Monster Hunter games.

Anyway, we play in a MMORPG genre that barely justifies the use of the RPG anymore, there really should be a lot of differences between races even if considering only the implications of the physical differences.



While I am all for certain mechanics making a comeback, I would argue that the rat you just killed has killed 250 other adventurers and their swords / armor / etc lies there on the floor for you to take. No this doesn't make as much sense in the open world .. but it's a mechanic pulled from games with dungeon crawls. At one point there were chests.

That being said, I am all for looting scales / bones / w.e .. and making all pve gear crafteable. its an interesting concept that has been asked for, for years ..

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21930

6/26/12 4:35:01 PM#82
Originally posted by Torik

I consider encumberance to be a 'dumbed down' mechanic.  The devs are not brave enough to put in a realistic inventory system but still feel that they need to restrict player choice and freedom in matters of equipment. 

If you want a realistic inventory system, you do not let players carry multiple sets of weapons and armor.  If you want to let them carry more than their personal equipment set, you let them use pack animals and/or carts. 

Requireing your players to play 'inventory management games' is not role playing.  It's just lazy design.

Realistic != more fun.

Do i really want to be able to carry 3 items and run to town to sell (or drop the stuff i earn) every 5 steps?

GAMEPLAY should come first in a game.

A shooter can afford to be realistic in this (i.e. lots of games you can only carry two guns) but a item progression based MMO?

  Deathofsage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 1010

Honestly:
FFXI Fanboy
RIFT hater.
Stop rewarding wow-clones.

6/26/12 5:54:20 PM#83

Threads like this are where the elitists really show up. Just because someone doesn't like a feature, inventory mini-game in this case, doesn't mean their bad, or not intelligent. It means that pressing I and carefully putting items in the right slots detracts from the game instead of adding to it.

Of course some games just do pure weight, rather than giving you a bag to play scramble-tiles with.

I love how people can be called dumb and bad because they disliked a dumb and bad idea.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  Dewm

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/29/09
Posts: 1350

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/26/12 6:52:07 PM#84
Originally posted by dreamscaper
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

 

I would laugh at this if it wasn't so sadly true.

 

*starts sobbing* WHhhhyyyyyyy!!

Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos

  Dewm

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/29/09
Posts: 1350

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/26/12 6:58:42 PM#85
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Originally posted by lizardbones

People wanted to play the "killing monsters" game, not the "endless inventory management" game. This allowed developers to have player banks instead of player houses, which players generally found acceptable.

Right there is the problem. MMOs are only about 10% killing monester if it is a true MMO. There is much more in the world than just that.

 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If I wanted to play a game where all I did was kill monsters I would play a GOOD game (FPS of some sort) If I want to only battle other players I will pull out AOE2

 

BUT! I want to play a MMORPG! RPG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like a world to live in, f*ck killing monster after monster to get the newest gear. 

 

 

Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos

  TheLizardbones

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10959

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

6/26/12 7:05:50 PM#86


Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Thorbrand

Originally posted by lizardbones People wanted to play the "killing monsters" game, not the "endless inventory management" game. This allowed developers to have player banks instead of player houses, which players generally found acceptable.
Right there is the problem. MMOs are only about 10% killing monester if it is a true MMO. There is much more in the world than just that.
 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If I wanted to play a game where all I did was kill monsters I would play a GOOD game (FPS of some sort) If I want to only battle other players I will pull out AOE2

 

BUT! I want to play a MMORPG! RPG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like a world to live in, f*ck killing monster after monster to get the newest gear. 

 

 




You may not find a 'true' MMO for awhile unless you're willing to compromise. Play an MMORPG with some, but not all of the features you want, play on an Arma II sandbox style server or a Minecraft RPG server...that kind of thing.

I wouldn't expect a return of actual encumbrance rules to most MMORPG though.

** edit **
Perpetuum has actual encumbrance limits. The weight you can carry and load onto your mech is limited by your mech's frame. This is one of the only places I would be happy to deal with encumbrance...an actual MechWarrior MMORPG. Not sure about MechWarrior Online, but a MW MMORPG? Oh yeah.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

6/26/12 7:18:44 PM#87
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.

And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.

And so they disappeared.

I couldnt disagree more, those items added depth that you just dont see.  The above items you consider as "hassles" is the mentality that has slowly erroded gameplay in modern MMO's.

Others see them for what they are opportunities / planning / resourcesfullness / intelligent game choices etc.  But nah they are just hassels right?  Toss them out send me to end game in 3 days so I can complain.  Just give me more monsters to kill bigger weapons and flashier spells.

  spizz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 2588

6/26/12 7:21:30 PM#88
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

Remember when actually characters in an mmorpg had stats like STR, AGI, DEX, WIL, CON or whatever.

Remember when  you could build your own fortifications i.e. whole villages with buildings and a wall around.

Remember when th ere was actually fear walking around into enemy territory.

Remember when  the term F2P was  a phrase and people knew such games were bad quality.

Remember when not that many games in general where out there but people were more happy than nowadays.

Remember the days when companies were not that greedy with dirty marketing tricks and actually released games by gamers and not by stock investors.

  NorseGod

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 826

6/26/12 7:26:02 PM#89
Originally posted by snapfusion
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.

And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.

And so they disappeared.

I couldnt disagree more, those items added depth that you just dont see.  The above items you consider as "hassles" is the mentality that has slowly erroded gameplay in modern MMO's.

Others see them for what they are opportunities / planning / resourcesfullness / intelligent game choices etc.  But nah they are just hassels right?  Toss them out send me to end game in 3 days so I can complain.  Just give me more monsters to kill bigger weapons and flashier spells.

He's the type of gamer that has to buy a new game every 2-3 months because his current one got boring with nothing to do because he beaten it.

I find it odd that it is now commonplace to "beat" MMOs. Before this was unheard of. So was moving from game to game every 2 months like locust.

MMORPGs are dumbed down, lobby-based, co-Ops now. Nothing more.

Paying for a provided service does not bother me. Gaming is not a human right.

  Silvermink

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 289

6/26/12 9:03:15 PM#90
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by demongoat
i'll never understand why people want to go back to days of frustration and tedium that just made the game unfun.
 

Every inconvenience is a game for someone else.

 Something totally unfun for you may be very fun for someone else.

 I don't understand why it is so hard to understand.

 ===========

Saying this that NOT ALL old mmorpg mechanics were good.

That would be most challanging to developers which one to implement and which one to not implement.

Also which one of mechanics ideas to implement but diffrently.

The fun doesn't come from the tedium of running back to your corpse, or grinding the exp you lost back. The fun comes from the thrill of killing the monster with under 10% health left knowing what you were risking. From getting a level and going back and killing a monster you couldn't yesterday. From having the long cast heal land just in time to save the tank. None of that excites when a death or a wipe is just a few minutes to run back and a pittance of gold.

 

Originally posted by Axehilt

The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.

And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.

And so they disappeared.

 

Encumberance actually made sense in EQ. And as for depth, you probably didn't try a monk. It didn't really punish the weaker classes cause they wore lighter armor.  If you didn't eat or drink, you got hungry and it did matter, you didn't regen. And sense heading...wandering around GFay as a human with no sense heading and no lightsource...ouch. What do dev's have against the dark? Diablo 1 was spooky and scared the crap out of me, d2 and d3 we're too bright, even in the darkest places.

  Torval

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6680

6/26/12 10:45:31 PM#91
Originally posted by snapfusion
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.

And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.

And so they disappeared.

I couldnt disagree more, those items added depth that you just dont see.  The above items you consider as "hassles" is the mentality that has slowly erroded gameplay in modern MMO's.

Others see them for what they are opportunities / planning / resourcesfullness / intelligent game choices etc.  But nah they are just hassels right?  Toss them out send me to end game in 3 days so I can complain.  Just give me more monsters to kill bigger weapons and flashier spells.

How did encumbrance add depth?  I already explained why it doesn't.  I would like to hear how it does.  It was meaningless and added nothing to the game.  It didn't make the game more challenging or more interesting.  It was simply there as an artificial limit to inventory.  It wasn't even implemented in a realistic fashion.

I would be all for an encumbrance/weight and inventory mass system if it made sense within the game framework and added something.  Depth is great.  Hassle mechanics are not.

No one has as many friends as a man with many cheeses!

  Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 8064

6/26/12 10:49:09 PM#92
Originally posted by snapfusion

I couldnt disagree more, those items added depth that you just dont see.  The above items you consider as "hassles" is the mentality that has slowly erroded gameplay in modern MMO's.

Others see them for what they are opportunities / planning / resourcesfullness / intelligent game choices etc.  But nah they are just hassels right?  Toss them out send me to end game in 3 days so I can complain.  Just give me more monsters to kill bigger weapons and flashier spells.

They are hassles.

They're a feature which costs players a lot of time or clicks or attention, while their benefits (in terms of "how many interesting decisions does this game system provide?") tend to be extremely low.

When a player calls something a "hassle" (or an "inconvenience") that's exactly what they're describing: lots of effort required, for little payoff (little game depth.)

Meanwhile there are countless other features games can have where the same effort is associated with considerably more interesting decisions being made, which makes the game feel considerably more rewarding.

Don't mistake me for saying a weight system brings zero depth to a game, but man...for the effort required it brings so little depth to a game I don't know why anyone would want that over countless other, deeper game features.

  BartDaCat

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/04
Posts: 823

Gamer Forums, where "First World Problems" are our specialty!

6/26/12 10:57:36 PM#93
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

I think the regression in MMORPG gaming parallels the regression in Western humanity that comes with technology.  In 20 years or so, it may be people no longer use their arms and legs, and such are withered useless atrophic limbs attached to bloated persons whose eyeball scans cause their game mouses to automatically move across the screens and play games.  Even waste will be siphoned through their game chairs, which they never leave, and filtered back through tubes and into their mouths as second harvest nutrition.

The future bodes ill for MMORPG gaming, indeed.

The first thing that popped into my mind when you described this was the movie "Idiocracy".  Granted, it's no Academy Award winner, but the premise seems frighteningly prophetic.

 

  Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 8064

6/26/12 11:00:52 PM#94
Originally posted by Silvermink

Encumberance actually made sense in EQ. And as for depth, you probably didn't try a monk. It didn't really punish the weaker classes cause they wore lighter armor.  If you didn't eat or drink, you got hungry and it did matter, you didn't regen. And sense heading...wandering around GFay as a human with no sense heading and no lightsource...ouch. What do dev's have against the dark? Diablo 1 was spooky and scared the crap out of me, d2 and d3 we're too bright, even in the darkest places.

If I create a game exactly like WOW but you have to hit tilde (~) every 30 seconds or your character dies, that has not added depth to the game.  That has added hassle.

There's no deep gameplay and no sense of mastery to hitting tilde every 30 seconds.

The same is true of food and encumbrance in just about every game out there (certainly the MMORPGs I've played that used it.)  The amount of depth they add in the MMORPGs and RPGs I've seen them in hasn't been zero, but it's been so close to zero as to make them not worth the hassle.

I've seen some non-MMORPGs do encumbrance in a way where it created interesting tradeoff decisions (ie depth) but never in a MMORPG so far.

  User Deleted
6/26/12 11:18:57 PM#95


Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Silvermink

Encumberance actually made sense in EQ. And as for depth, you probably didn't try a monk. It didn't really punish the weaker classes cause they wore lighter armor.  If you didn't eat or drink, you got hungry and it did matter, you didn't regen. And sense heading...wandering around GFay as a human with no sense heading and no lightsource...ouch. What do dev's have against the dark? Diablo 1 was spooky and scared the crap out of me, d2 and d3 we're too bright, even in the darkest places.

If I create a game exactly like WOW but you have to hit tilde (~) every 30 seconds or your character dies, that has not added depth to the game.  That has added hassle.

There's no deep gameplay and no sense of mastery to hitting tilde every 30 seconds.

The same is true of food and encumbrance in just about every game out there (certainly the MMORPGs I've played that used it.)  The amount of depth they add in the MMORPGs and RPGs I've seen them in hasn't been zero, but it's been so close to zero as to make them not worth the hassle.

I've seen some non-MMORPGs do encumbrance in a way where it created interesting tradeoff decisions (ie depth) but never in a MMORPG so far.


I would not call inventory mechanics any sort of depth mechanic. With that being said you keep talking about hassles. A hassle can mean many different things to many different people. Looting could be a hassle.
Walking could be a hassle.
Repairs could be a hassle.
Buffs could be a hassle.
Leveling could be a hassle.
Bosses could be a hassle.
Guild mates could be a hassle.
Mobs could be a hassle.

This list could go on and on. You do not like to be bothered by such a mechanic. I understand that. I just think that labeling stuff as a hassle because you have limited time is just a generalization. A weight mechanic versus a space mechanic does not necessarily offer fewer trips to unload your burden. You have just latched on to that concept because you feel that one version is better than another.

Honestly, I really don't care all that much which feature is in the game. I play and determine my fun in many different ways. If time is so damn important that walking and traveling throughout my game are hassles. I wake up and take time off from the gaming. I call it a reality check.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/26/12 11:22:23 PM#96

Agreed ^

I think the future of hassle-less games will be ones where you don't even have to play to progress in. It would take EVE-style timers and apply it to everything.

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  Drekker17

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/11
Posts: 293

6/26/12 11:47:57 PM#97
I absolutely hate weight and other related stuff, I don't mind it being in games that are trying to make a realistic feel, but otherwise it just annoys me.

"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small minds talk about people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
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  LydarSynn

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/03
Posts: 183

6/27/12 12:03:41 AM#98

I think the OP is really just bringing up what we all know and has been discussed many times (although weight and encumbrance is one that usually doesn't come up so good job). The whole MMO genre is simply a hack and slash fest where too much thinking causes most players to whine and quit. For most people today, a challenge is not fun. They really just want to do easy things that make them feel good. If there was a chance to lose to the game or gods forbid another player, most would quit because it would remind them of their real lives.

I have pretty much given up on MMOs for this reason. IMO, the really good games that still have a challenge are the browser based strategy games. I am playing Illyriad right now and that is a blast. I know- totally different type of game but it has what many of us are looking for.  Weight, death, any semblance of realism and any possibility of failure will not return to MMO gaming.

  demongoat

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 68

6/27/12 12:15:18 AM#99
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by demongoat
 

 

i'll never understand why people want to go back to days of frustration and tedium that just made the game unfun.
 

 

Every inconvenience is a game for someone else.

 

Something totally unfun for you may be very fun for someone else.

 

I don't understand why it is so hard to understand.

 

===========

Saying this that NOT ALL old mmorpg mechanics were good.

That would be most challanging to developers which one to implement and which one to not implement.

Also which one of mechanics ideas to implement but diffrently.

 

why would anyone have fun wasting time on mechanics that are frustrating and boring? no one can tell me that they always have fun every corpse run or camping stuff for 20 hours.

the only thing i can think of is they still believe overcoming bordom and frustration is a sign of acomplishment, rather than what it it is, poor game design.

also i should have added "still" into that quote, since i did play eq1 and felt like overcoming those things somehow made the game more "fun" myself .   Wow and other games showed you could create other mechanisms to add challenge and that list is just poor outdated ones that no game company would attempt to add anymore if they want to make money.

 

i was happy when sony decided to phase out mechanisms like these, too bad the game was played out for me after playing on and off for 10 years.   wish they had made it so you don't lose gear about 8 years ago when there were more players, maybe eq would have retained more players, either that or maybe just not have put GoD out, either one.

i realize some people believe these mechanisms are "fun",  but i honestly think they are just holding on to that belief  because they played a game with it forever and they have now rationalized that belief into "this adds fun to games".

 

i think you missed what i was really saying, that the mechanisms are bad because they waste players time.  or for a while were nothing but junk mechanisms that didn't add anything to the game,  like the eating and drinking mechanism that did nothing, not because they inconvenience people.   they fixed the issue with food, namely made it have an effect, even thought it sometimes seems broken.

inconvenience is fine, all mmos have inconvenience, but corpse runs are not an inconvenience they are a game breaker for most people.

there is always niche games for that, people play the god awful d3 permadeath thing after all. 

 

 

  demongoat

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 68

6/27/12 12:28:48 AM#100
Originally posted by LydarSynn

fest where too much thinking causes most players to whine and quit.

i think you overestimated the amount of thinking you needed to do in old mmos.

how much skill does it take to play any of these games? not as much as people want to think they do.

i'm not sure why people say you needed more thought in older mmos, it wasn't any different than the new ones.

the new ones just require you to not have to experiment,  because from out of the gate it is all spoonfed to you by websites made by people that already did the work.

 

of course that is how the rest of the internet is, full of information prepackaged by someone else already, in small bites for everyone to consume.

this is of course, just as planned.

 

 

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