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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » An important character dimension is vanishing.

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126 posts found
  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/25/12 11:17:53 PM#41
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by GTwander

Well what I see these days is that all games are becoming a homogenous layer of crap, everything is samey, and the reason why is because they are sticking with what people say they "want", and removing anything considered "hassle".

Now we have hundreds of games that do the exact same fucking thing... Good job guys.

That's ridiculous.

There are hundreds of genres out there which are completely different games without adding ample inconveniences, and there are tons of potential MMORPG designs which are completely different from existing MMORPGs without involving ample inconveniences.

Homogenization has nothing to do with avoiding inconveniences.

Uh huh, yet every new shooter has health mechanics from Halo, leveling aspects from CoD, etc, etc.

Everything is ending up samey on a per-genre level. MMOs especially.

How many total genres are there again? Pretty sure I can count them on all my available digits... so in the future, it will be that many choices of games to play overall. ~and hopefully, the market will lean towards whatever titles choose to stray from the "norm" at that point.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  EricDanie

Tipster

Joined: 2/10/05
Posts: 2244

6/25/12 11:22:42 PM#42

We must go deeper.

The "problem" is killing a rat and looting a two-handed sword, killing a dragon and looting a full set of shiny new armor.

We should be looting scales, teeth, fangs, etc, for use in a crafting system that would be the only source of PvE equipment (exchanging PvP tokens seems perfectly fine). From that point it would become a lot easier to handle inventory logic without creating a huge hassle for players (a realistic inventory without a realistic loot system wouldn't work - you'd kill monsters for like 10 minutes and get overburdened with 5 shields on your backpack. It's the reason I love the Monster Hunter games.

Anyway, we play in a MMORPG genre that barely justifies the use of the RPG anymore, there really should be a lot of differences between races even if considering only the implications of the physical differences.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/25/12 11:26:45 PM#43
Originally posted by GTwander

Uh huh, yet every new shooter has health mechanics from Halo, leveling aspects from CoD, etc, etc.

Couldn't one argue that that this has always been true in video games?  From a mass of scrolling 1942-esque shooters in the arcade days, to a mass of Dune-type RTS games, a mass of RPGs with similar D&D-inspired mechanics/settings ... it's just that when we look back 10 years, most of the surrounding mass of clones has faded from memory and we only remember one or two iconic games from each genre or subgenre..

  User Deleted
6/25/12 11:30:00 PM#44


Originally posted by EricDanie
We must go deeper.

The "problem" is killing a rat and looting a two-handed sword, killing a dragon and looting a full set of shiny new armor.

We should be looting scales, teeth, fangs, etc, for use in a crafting system that would be the only source of PvE equipment (exchanging PvP tokens seems perfectly fine). From that point it would become a lot easier to handle inventory logic without creating a huge hassle for players (a realistic inventory without a realistic loot system wouldn't work - you'd kill monsters for like 10 minutes and get overburdened with 5 shields on your backpack. It's the reason I love the Monster Hunter games.

Anyway, we play in a MMORPG genre that barely justifies the use of the RPG anymore, there really should be a lot of differences between races even if considering only the implications of the physical differences.



I agree. This is one of the features I enjoy while playing Fallen Earth. I have to make my weapons or buy them from someone else who has made them. The rats just have resources.

  redcloud16

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/11
Posts: 223

There is no chance unless you take one.

6/25/12 11:30:43 PM#45

Interesting that I am suddenly in the instant gratification crowd simply for disliking needlessly complex inventory management systems. Nice flash judgement there.

A little is fine, I don't care, but when it takes me like hours to do a 20 minute dungeon (my experience in the first Neverwinter Nights), it's generally easier on me if I don't have to worry about going back to town every time I enter a new room. 

The problem is mine, lol, I have this uncontrollable need to loot everything I can and not throw anything away. It might be useful or valueable. Obvoiusly it's a bit different in MMOs, but I still avoid destroying stuff (even greys) if I can help it. 

 

Interesting, though, that an endless bag space with no regard to the number or size of objects in your recent MMOs are looked down on, but no one bats en eye in DnD when a wizard opens his satchel to reveal his cavernous study in a pocket dimension.

Bag of Holding/Hermione's Bag anyone?

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

6/25/12 11:37:23 PM#46
Originally posted by lizardbones

People wanted to play the "killing monsters" game, not the "endless inventory management" game. This allowed developers to have player banks instead of player houses, which players generally found acceptable.

Right there is the problem. MMOs are only about 10% killing monester if it is a true MMO. There is much more in the world than just that.

  Quenchster

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/12
Posts: 452

6/25/12 11:38:13 PM#47

All it really does is get you to look at each individual items weight and sell value to determine what should be tossed out because the weight to gold ratio isn't good enough. Item slots without weight on items is about convience. Out of combat conviences are important in any form of MMO because it lets players get back to playing with each other faster. Having to stop what I am doing with a friend just to check the weight of somethings in my UI isn't exactly something I consider fun. I can see where an RPG leaning MMORPGer would have some fun with it, but not an MMO leaning MMORPGer.

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

6/25/12 11:38:20 PM#48

Mmmm no. This is one feature in particular I was happy to see disappear. I don't like my inventory and thus my versatility and ability to make money (and support myself) hindered because all my stats went into making sure I was a value to my party. Mechanics like this favored the keyboard face-roll dpsers who only had to spam points in Strength, putting them at the advantage of not only gaining lots of loot but not having to actually work very hard, while the healers and mages keeping their squishy asses alive could barely carry anything and had to content themselves with whatever crumbs got thrown their way.

 

Naw. I'm good.

 

EDIT - btw as far as realism goes, no one would be able to carry the armor/weapons frequently worn by these characters (even in the pre-WoW shoulder-pads-of-huge days) let alone spare equipment in real life, especially in the heat of battle. Suspension of disbelief...it is necessary.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/25/12 11:38:41 PM#49
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by GTwander

Uh huh, yet every new shooter has health mechanics from Halo, leveling aspects from CoD, etc, etc.

Couldn't one argue that that this has always been true in video games?  From a mass of scrolling 1942-esque shooters in the arcade days, to a mass of Dune-type RTS games, a mass of RPGs with similar D&D-inspired mechanics/settings ... it's just that when we look back 10 years, most of the surrounding mass of clones has faded from memory and we only remember one or two iconic games from each genre or subgenre..

Got a point there, but now it's even harder for these companies to stray off and be the first to introduce a "next big thing" that can be copied by all the poseurs.

I can think of (and have thought of) a dozen ways to handle health mechanics that don't involve finding a pickup or having auto-regenerating health. Yet, that seems to be the only two ever employed, and only because of sheer copycat~ism.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  User Deleted
6/25/12 11:59:20 PM#50


Originally posted by redcloud16
Interesting that I am suddenly in the instant gratification crowd simply for disliking needlessly complex inventory management systems. Nice flash judgement there.

A little is fine, I don't care, but when it takes me like hours to do a 20 minute dungeon (my experience in the first Neverwinter Nights), it's generally easier on me if I don't have to worry about going back to town every time I enter a new room. 

The problem is mine, lol, I have this uncontrollable need to loot everything I can and not throw anything away. It might be useful or valueable. Obvoiusly it's a bit different in MMOs, but I still avoid destroying stuff (even greys) if I can help it. 

 

Interesting, though, that an endless bag space with no regard to the number or size of objects in your recent MMOs are looked down on, but no one bats en eye in DnD when a wizard opens his satchel to reveal his cavernous study in a pocket dimension.

Bag of Holding/Hermione's Bag anyone?


I have the same issue regarding my loot. I really do not like giving up any of it either. I do enjoy having to make decisions however sometimes I just can't have everything.

Not everyone is an instant gratification member of the crowd. These games are just designed to attract those people. Just like the loot we like so much, it drops so frequently now days and in many cases we know exactly what mob to kill in order to get the stuff we want. I preferred the days where items were less frequently dropped and when you got something unique or rare actually was exciting to get. I don't expect the loot table to change though.

  Silvermink

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 289

6/26/12 12:08:40 AM#51
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

I miss all those things :)

Racial/class diversity got neutered in the cause for class balance. Can't let 1 class or race be better than another, can't let class/race combo's unbalance the game. While I don't usually jump on the blame WoW cruscade, I'm pretty sure they killed this. Dwarf tanks making all other races unwanted.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5510

6/26/12 12:12:07 AM#52
Originally posted by EricDanie

We must go deeper.

The "problem" is killing a rat and looting a two-handed sword, killing a dragon and looting a full set of shiny new armor.

We should be looting scales, teeth, fangs, etc, for use in a crafting system that would be the only source of PvE equipment (exchanging PvP tokens seems perfectly fine). From that point it would become a lot easier to handle inventory logic without creating a huge hassle for players (a realistic inventory without a realistic loot system wouldn't work - you'd kill monsters for like 10 minutes and get overburdened with 5 shields on your backpack. It's the reason I love the Monster Hunter games.

Anyway, we play in a MMORPG genre that barely justifies the use of the RPG anymore, there really should be a lot of differences between races even if considering only the implications of the physical differences.

Now this is a complex system that actually adds depth to game play.  Instead of armour just dropping you assemble your armour through pieces parts that drop from monsters.

Encumbrance in most games was nothing more than an artificial means to limit loot collection.  It was never about adding an in depth system that worked with the rest of the world.

It's not like it was some huge gaming flub to have those systems, but some of them also didn't really add anything.  Do people really miss encumbrance or do they just miss the idea of having in depth systems iin their game?

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Theocritus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3605

6/26/12 12:15:07 AM#53

     THis is a good point...SO many RPG elements are disappearing from games...No wonder players only stay a month or two in games nowadays......Heck even EQ has weightless coins now.

  soulmirror

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 93

6/26/12 12:36:12 AM#54

Yes, with any NEW MMO that has come out it is all about endgame, even most of the older MMO's have sped up the leveling curve. The first incarnation of WoW it took months to max level, now that same level range requires 2 weeks of casual play with a friend.

Why has this happened?

 

1) Companies, big and small, realized that you can attract non-gamers and casual gamers to a game  and make it easy enough for them to hang around. Experience gathering is easier and anything that is not experience related is trivialized, crafting, Guilds, exploration, corpse runs The MMO's further blur the lines by using hybred characters, giving everyone a chance to heal and insta-travel, making it that much easier to gain experience over a period of time.

2) Using this model + hype, gives a company what they want a game easily accessible by all that gives instant gratification, does not take time to master and they expect high turnover and are willing to do so by offering incentives to atract new players or get old ones to come back.

3) They listened to the communities complaints and gave the gamers what they wanted, this is the fault of gamers to a degree, this is why.

a) Everyone cried about the holy trinity (fighter, cleric, crowd control) so developers made hybred characters, so everyone could do everything well enough to get by in the game.

b) Pick up groups (PUGS) were flamed by communities and forums everywhere, run over by the short bus, flamed some more, made the joke list of every forum and then beaten like a dead horse and left for dead. Developers answered the call by making games with companions(GW, SWTOR) or made them easy enough for solo play.

c) Everyone clamoured about casual players and not seeing all the content in a game, devs made the games easier, so everyone can experience everything about a game.

d) Anything that required thinking beyond mashing buttons has been trivialized crafting, weght management, exploration, race/class advantages, teamwork, housing, guilds and giuld halls.

e) This (plus sharding) led to the death of the community behind a game, if you can solo a game and every thing else is trivialized, you do not need a guild except as a vehicle for a chat room. If the companion guide on how to beat the game is printed the day the game releases, all you need is you and the book (or the website) and you do not need a guild or anyone else, except for a few bottlenecks in the game.

 

 

 

I honestly hope that someone builds an MMO that challenges me again......

 

  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

6/26/12 12:37:48 AM#55
Originally posted by grogstorm
What ever happened to weight limits?
 
Items used to weigh something and your characters were limited to the amount of weight they could carry.
 
I remember back in the day when only the biggest and strongest characters could carry the siege equipment into the fray.  Now everyone can carry the ram no matter how small or diminutive their character was.   This takes away a dimension of a game that was very important for role playing and community building.
 
We need to get this aspect back in the game.  So if I want to be a loot whore, I need to make a big and bulky toon to accommodate this gameplay desire.   If I want near endless endurance to sprint across an entire zone I would have to make a much smaller and nibble toon.
 
I’m just wondering what ever happened to this aspect of character customization.  Currently in most games you can have a 3 foot tall 45 pound toon that can carry as much as a 6 foot 235 pound character.  And they will also have to same amount of endurance.  This just seems wrong to me.
 
If you want to be tiny, you should have disadvantages and advantages for this choice.  Conversely the same for choosing a larger character.
 
What do you think?

If you are basing your views of the importance of certain attributes on reality:

 

No ram that is portable by a 235 pound man is going to do anything of significance to a fortress gate.

High physical strength, for carrying things across distances is not particularly important when mules can do better. If you are basing the importance of your character on its ability to compete with the product of a horse-donkey cross breed you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Small does not equate to greater endurance.

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/26/12 1:08:39 AM#56
Originally posted by GTwander

Uh huh, yet every new shooter has health mechanics from Halo, leveling aspects from CoD, etc, etc.

Everything is ending up samey on a per-genre level. MMOs especially.

How many total genres are there again? Pretty sure I can count them on all my available digits... so in the future, it will be that many choices of games to play overall. ~and hopefully, the market will lean towards whatever titles choose to stray from the "norm" at that point.

Did you not play TF2, Tribes, or SMNC?  Plenty of shooters lack Halo's health mechanics or CoD-style leveling.

I suppose "hundreds" might be a stretch for how many genres there are, but certainly it's in the 20+ range with all the subgenres of games which are considerably different.  Hell, even Apple's iPhone store is ultra-casual yet manages to define 18 separate (very broad) genres which misses a ton of very specific genres of games which exist.

  Dibdabs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2400

6/26/12 6:48:19 AM#57
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

The absolute truth.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3719

6/26/12 6:57:50 AM#58

Everybody who wants these mechanics, and who wants monsters to drop monster-appropriate items (Like dragons dropping say... dragon scales and horns) should go out and buy TWO copies of Dragon's Dogma by Capcom.

Maybe if it sells incredibly well, more games will be made with those kinds of vaguely realistic mechanics.

The game pays attention to weight, height/weight of characters, uses endurance for running/climbing and fighting, has monster-appropriate loot drops... even has short characters have shorter melee reach but smaller hitboxes to compensate.

I'm not sure I'd want EVERY game I play to be like that, but it's interesting as a change of pace!

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/26/12 7:41:06 AM#59


Originally posted by EricDanie
We must go deeper.

The "problem" is killing a rat and looting a two-handed sword, killing a dragon and looting a full set of shiny new armor.

We should be looting scales, teeth, fangs, etc, for use in a crafting system that would be the only source of PvE equipment (exchanging PvP tokens seems perfectly fine). From that point it would become a lot easier to handle inventory logic without creating a huge hassle for players (a realistic inventory without a realistic loot system wouldn't work - you'd kill monsters for like 10 minutes and get overburdened with 5 shields on your backpack. It's the reason I love the Monster Hunter games.

Anyway, we play in a MMORPG genre that barely justifies the use of the RPG anymore, there really should be a lot of differences between races even if considering only the implications of the physical differences.




While I'm not a fan of encumbrance mechanics, I am a fan of drops having something to do with the mob you're killing. I'm also a fan of crafting systems that take this into account. I'm not sure why encumbrance = lame but sort of realistic drops = fun to me.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  COORS

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 362

6/26/12 7:45:34 AM#60
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

 

This is so spot on.

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