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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » An important character dimension is vanishing.

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126 posts found
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5931

6/25/12 8:50:58 PM#21
Originally posted by stormannnn

I love how the genre is now referred to as "MMOs" leaving the fact that you're taking on the role of a character (the RPG aspect) out. Encumberance is an invaluable aspect to any self-respecting mmorpg game out there, and frankly I don't like the cube slotted 'bags' current games give us. Think back to pre-AOS Ultima Online. Your character has easily 100 dex, right? Put on a piece of platemail and it drops to 50. THATS what I'm talking about. That needs to be in more games. I hate that computers are so widespread and that RPG games which used to be only real story tellers and adventure seeking people played are now played by everyone. Developers who aren't actually part of the game listen to these 'average every-day' people and our games become what they are now.

thats because MMO is a general term, which applies many sub genres (MMORPG, MMORTS, MMOFPS, etc)

  centkin

Elite Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 779

6/25/12 8:53:50 PM#22

Well, the balance was as follows:

Old days:

If you were a warrior you could carry a ton of items, but you had to walk them back to town and walk them back to where you were hunting -- you didnt even get a gate spell so if you got lost you were LOST. 

If you were a caster you could carry a very limited number of items, but you could instantly port yourself back to town.  And many casters could also port themselves back to their hunting grounds.

Later:

Warriors got a method of hearthstoning back to town.  Casters might have some extra convenience but the basic transports were available to all...  Hence to make inventory management equal they equalized the carry weights.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10431

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/25/12 8:54:53 PM#23


Originally posted by rdrakken

Originally posted by lizardbones People wanted to play the "killing monsters" game, not the "endless inventory management" game. This allowed developers to have player banks instead of player houses, which players generally found acceptable.
Then why did it go from Asherons Call of inventory management with killing 100 mobs at the same time to no inventory management and mostly not being able to take on 2 or more mobs at once? :p



Dunno. Games seem to be heading back in the direction of more, weaker mobs as opposed to fewer, stronger mobs though. I'm not sure there's a good reason for any of it.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  User Deleted
6/25/12 8:55:15 PM#24

It seems to me if a significant portion of any given playerbase would want any of the said features..it would probably exist. The games that original had such systems are still around, go play those.

Seriously, like real life doesn't have enough tedious details to deal with, why would you drag that into a form of entertainment?

  rounner

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 532

6/25/12 8:55:17 PM#25

It's not just mechanics but attitude. For example DDO was designed so that the rogue would have to detect and disarm traps. Nobody would wait for this, so everyone just ran through and took the damage. Even with WOW, in early vanilla, the rogue had to set up their saps for the pull. After a while nobody could be assed and they started using quicker split pull techniques. I had a look at wow a few years ago and there was no pull set up at all, just a break neck rush to the boss.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/25/12 9:01:54 PM#26
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.

And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.

And so they disappeared.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

6/25/12 9:03:56 PM#27

I'm just going to blame Pokemon since they can fit huge monsters into tiny capsules. Obvious cheating!

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  ReallyNow10

Elite Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1605

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

6/25/12 9:21:31 PM#28

I think the regression in MMORPG gaming parallels the regression in Western humanity that comes with technology.  In 20 years or so, it may be people no longer use their arms and legs, and such are withered useless atrophic limbs attached to bloated persons whose eyeball scans cause their game mouses to automatically move across the screens and play games.  Even waste will be siphoned through their game chairs, which they never leave, and filtered back through tubes and into their mouths as second harvest nutrition.

The future bodes ill for MMORPG gaming, indeed.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3714

RIP City of Heroes!

6/25/12 9:30:53 PM#29
Originally posted by redcloud16

I personally found encumberance to be one of the more moronic game systems. 

I love role playing and I am by no means one of the instant gratification crowd, but I am playing a game. I have no intention of playing a reality simulation. 

There are certain real life trappings I simply do not want to have to deal with. But to each his own. 

You are officially granted membership in the instant gratification crowd.

  grogstorm

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/05/07
Posts: 287

If it ain't broke, dont fix it!

 
OP  6/25/12 9:31:47 PM#30
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

I think the regression in MMORPG gaming parallels the regression in Western humanity that comes with technology.  In 20 years or so, it may be people no longer use their arms and legs, and such are withered useless atrophic limbs attached to bloated persons whose eyeball scans cause their game mouses to automatically move across the screens and play games.  Even waste will be siphoned through their game chairs, which they never leave, and filtered back through tubes and into their mouths as second harvest nutrition.

The future bodes ill for MMORPG gaming, indeed.

Your right on track. 

Soon, every mom's baseent will require a second harvest nutrition system to meet code if they plan on having children.   :)

Grog

  Deathofsage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 1010

Honestly:
FFXI Fanboy
RIFT hater.
Stop rewarding wow-clones.

6/25/12 9:37:41 PM#31

I despise inventory management as well. It's not fun in the slightest.

Yeah it's a little silly that I can carry forty greatswords, an anvil and 20 feasts around, but then again, I'm fighting dragons or zombies or faeries... I think how big my bag is is the least of my issues with immersion.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  Hero_Alpha

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/07
Posts: 59

6/25/12 9:43:32 PM#32

I dont understand all these treads about wanting encumbrance, eating/sleeping, player housing, KOS in some towns and a dozen other "old-school" MMORPG things. All you have to do is load up Mortal Online and you should be in heaven, just overlook a few bugs. Its all there, all these things people ask for and claim no game has it.

playing:DCUO,GW2,TU
played:SWG,LotRO,CoH,GW

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6591

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

6/25/12 10:22:38 PM#33

I agree mr GT wonder,so many new gamers havbe been playing really cheap games and got in the nabit of just button mashing with no meaning.

Us older gamers have seen how all those in depth ideas can add a lot of meaning to game play.

FFXI is one of those games that covered a lot of those areas but the only weight idea was in the weapons.That however added a LOT of strategy and versatility to weapon selections.

FFXi's storage system definitely worked to curb RMT boitters.You see if you allow massive storage with no care ,be it weight or not,RMT will just sit there in auto bot and load up.In FFXI you have very little bagg space,you had to earn the extra space and RMT are usually not into actually playing a game,so it screwed them over.They did however figure ways around it by just having extra players sit  there and act as transporters.

Sadly when i read MANY excuses,it sounds like a lot of lazy people who really do not want a RPG,so i wonder why they are bothering to hang out in one?This is probably also why we see so many new games get a ton of people ,then they all quit.

I beleive most game system designers are passionate,but they are cutting corners to make game development shorter and make a higher profit.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10431

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/25/12 10:47:18 PM#34


Originally posted by Wizardry
I agree mr GT wonder,so many new gamers havbe been playing really cheap games and got in the nabit of just button mashing with no meaning.

Us older gamers have seen how all those in depth ideas can add a lot of meaning to game play.

FFXI is one of those games that covered a lot of those areas but the only weight idea was in the weapons.That however added a LOT of strategy and versatility to weapon selections.

FFXi's storage system definitely worked to curb RMT boitters.You see if you allow massive storage with no care ,be it weight or not,RMT will just sit there in auto bot and load up.In FFXI you have very little bagg space,you had to earn the extra space and RMT are usually not into actually playing a game,so it screwed them over.They did however figure ways around it by just having extra players sit  there and act as transporters.

Sadly when i read MANY excuses,it sounds like a lot of lazy people who really do not want a RPG,so i wonder why they are bothering to hang out in one?This is probably also why we see so many new games get a ton of people ,then they all quit.

I beleive most game system designers are passionate,but they are cutting corners to make game development shorter and make a higher profit.




I've been playing video games and rpg since 1976. I do not miss encumbrance rules or anything of the kind. Mostly, I think it's because it seems like people spend so much time getting caught up in the rules, they forget to play the game. If the rules are the game, why bother playing online rpg? Play pnp rpg, where the rules are king?

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/25/12 10:56:06 PM#35

Well what I see these days is that all games are becoming a homogenous layer of crap, everything is samey, and the reason why is because they are sticking with what people say they "want", and removing anything considered "hassle".

Now we have hundreds of games that do the exact same fucking thing... Good job guys.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/25/12 11:04:49 PM#36
Originally posted by lizardbones
I've been playing video games and rpg since 1976. I do not miss encumbrance rules or anything of the kind. Mostly, I think it's because it seems like people spend so much time getting caught up in the rules, they forget to play the game. If the rules are the game, why bother playing online rpg? Play pnp rpg, where the rules are king?

Micromanagement is easier on a computer than with pencil and paper.  I'm not a huge fan of encumbrance, but part of what makes a game work is some framework of limitations and choices.  Deciding what's worth looting has always been a part of it - whether it's by weight, by slots or some other wall that prevents you from overflowing the database.

  User Deleted
6/25/12 11:12:32 PM#37


Originally posted by lizardbones

Originally posted by Wizardry
I agree mr GT wonder,so many new gamers havbe been playing really cheap games and got in the nabit of just button mashing with no meaning.

Us older gamers have seen how all those in depth ideas can add a lot of meaning to game play.

FFXI is one of those games that covered a lot of those areas but the only weight idea was in the weapons.That however added a LOT of strategy and versatility to weapon selections.

FFXi's storage system definitely worked to curb RMT boitters.You see if you allow massive storage with no care ,be it weight or not,RMT will just sit there in auto bot and load up.In FFXI you have very little bagg space,you had to earn the extra space and RMT are usually not into actually playing a game,so it screwed them over.They did however figure ways around it by just having extra players sit  there and act as transporters.

Sadly when i read MANY excuses,it sounds like a lot of lazy people who really do not want a RPG,so i wonder why they are bothering to hang out in one?This is probably also why we see so many new games get a ton of people ,then they all quit.

I beleive most game system designers are passionate,but they are cutting corners to make game development shorter and make a higher profit.




I've been playing video games and rpg since 1976. I do not miss encumbrance rules or anything of the kind. Mostly, I think it's because it seems like people spend so much time getting caught up in the rules, they forget to play the game. If the rules are the game, why bother playing online rpg? Play pnp rpg, where the rules are king?


Most people welcome with open arms any changes that makes life easier. Many of these easier, less cumbersome games are not replacing the absent challenge with anything new.

I might very well be a minority but I still want to have some challenges while I play my games. I am not suggesting that they be annoying to the degree of pointless but whether it is a weight issue, or a bag space issue the choice will have to be made.

Personally I favor the concept where the weight of the items you are wearing also affect your speed and attack abilities. Cloth wearing characters should be faster than plate wearing players. We read about how people want their choices to affect the game, but then we also want to keep those choices limited to other areas of the game because it is easier.

Easier and faster are two of the most important factors for a majority of players.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/25/12 11:14:14 PM#38
Originally posted by GTwander

Well what I see these days is that all games are becoming a homogenous layer of crap, everything is samey, and the reason why is because they are sticking with what people say they "want", and removing anything considered "hassle".

Now we have hundreds of games that do the exact same fucking thing... Good job guys.

That's ridiculous.

There are hundreds of genres out there which are completely different games without adding ample inconveniences, and there are tons of potential MMORPG designs which are completely different from existing MMORPGs without involving ample inconveniences.

Homogenization has nothing to do with avoiding inconveniences.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

6/25/12 11:14:57 PM#39
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by NorseGod

It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.

Remember eating and drinking?

Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?

Remember corpse runs?

Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?

Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?

Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you)  for 15 mins and get the uber loot.

The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.

And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.

And so they disappeared.

I think you nailed Axe.  Really most of those systems were shallow, poorly implemented, and added nothing but bother to the game.

Let's take EQ2 as an example.

It had encumbrance.  What did people do?  They compensated by collecting magic bags to negate weight.  They stacked enough strength to make up for it.  In effect everyone did what they needed to do in order to bypass that annoying mechanic.

It still has the eat/drink mechanic.  What do people do?  They stack huge piles of long cooldown food so they don't have to deal with the mechanic.

What depth do those systems add to the game play?

I'm not sure why faction KoS is on that list though.  There are still a lot of games with faction KoS and that has nothing to do with grouping.  Most of my guild in EQ2 is evil and I group with them all the time.  If I want to go into most evil factions I just grind some rep quests until I'm neutral.  I can do this in between grouping sessions.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  User Deleted
6/25/12 11:15:37 PM#40

what happened : if there were weight mechanics then tiny rats and bunnys couldnt carry  huge blue lockboxes from cash shop dimension.

 

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