Arguing over what minimum wage is doesn't justify paying a sub if a game simply doesn't deserve one.

If you are arguing that most games deserve a sub for the sake of... God knows what... /facepalm

This is how class warfare starts - because one guy wants to flaunt his ability to pay more and blame everyone else for the standard of quality is dropping because of "cheapskates and freeloaders". You know damned well why the quality is dropping, and the fault at hand that you can place on the consumer is simply for *putting up with it*. /foolish

Originally posted by GTwander

Arguing over what minimum wage is doesn't justify paying a sub if a game simply doesn't deserve one.

If you are arguing that most games deserve a sub for the sake of... God knows what... /facepalm

This is how class warfare starts - because one guy wants to flaunt his ability to pay more and blame everyone else for the standard of quality is dropping because of "cheapskates and freeloaders". You know damned well why the quality is dropping, and the fault at hand that you can place on the consumer is simply for *putting up with it*. /foolish

I agree with you on that its almost no different then the F2P games where they say if you dont pay your a freeloader but if you dont pay what they do your a cheapskate it happens all the time in this genre and people dont see it.

Originally posted by nolic1

I agree with you on that its almost no different then the F2P games where they say if you dont pay your a freeloader but if you dont pay what they do your a cheapskate it happens all the time in this genre and people dont see it.

The people saying all that have their nose too high in the air to even bother trying any F2P games.

They haven't changed along with the genre, and are still carrying some curmudgeonly outlook from the late 90's. Bush era shit... papa-Bush.

Originally posted by TheCrow2k

Originally posted by Malcanis

Is merely keeping the server open and spending a buck or two on the bandwidth enough, or do you demand more for your $10-$15 a month?

In my opinion, paying a subscription fee should entitle the MMO customer to expect at minimum the following:

(1) Frequent, regular bug-fixing and exploit-patching

(2) Competent, active GMs

(3) A game that's in a fully working condition to play, and which fufills the promises made by advertising (or at the least, has the reasonable expectation of fulfilling those not currently delivered in the near future)

(4) An active, responsive community team

 

I think paying subscribers should also reasonably expect at least some of:

(5) Access to all the content in the game without further payment

(6) An expectation that the game will continue to be developed and expanded, and for that direction to be communicated

(7) Some level of input or interaction with the Dev team as to the future direction of the game.

(8) Proper game documentation and tutorials

 

What are your thoughts? Which subscription MMOs actually deliver to your expectations for a subscription? Should subbed MMOs which don't deliver go F2P or should they raise their game, so to speak?

 

Game needs to be Massively Multiplayer, not Single Player with co-op and Vs modes.

Why? Couldn't an argument be made that paying for access to a gateway that allows you to easily and seamlessly integrate your "massively singleplayer" experience is something that people want, and will pay for and that costs money to provide?

I think monthly sub and access to all content is the best and only model MMORPGs should use I really hate all these f2p games with cash shops :( but sadly the companies have found a way to make more money so they are not gonna stop..

Nothing really justifies 15 a month, your average game takes 5 years to produce with a massive team all the bills during that period new technoligies etc etc and all it costs is 60 bucks, wheras a month is a month with a relatively miniscule costs but yet you pay one fourth of the price of a full game every single month. Not to mention you tend to need to buy said mmo for 60 bucks anyway.

Being ok with paying it though is another thing and the game simply just have to be good(fun) enough no specific checklist, if it's the  best goddamn game in the entire world i'd pay a 15 sub even if it never gets any updates got no support yada yada.

Originally posted by GTwander

I agree with the guy that said "no double/triple dipping, not even for expansions". Thusly, EVE is king.

Otherwise, never running out of things to do - again, EVE is king.

 

~Yeah, I'd be playing EVE right now if the community wasn't a mongol horde of dickpunchers. If any game can come out with the sheer amount of options it has, but with a community I can actually gel with, I'd pay them what they ask for.

That got me giggling and now everyone in the office is looking at me

I agree with you that EVE meets the requirements for a subscription (to the extent that I am subscribed) - you've kind of fast-forwarded to where I was going with this. But I'm really interested in which other MMOs offer genuine value for a subscription. Simply being able to play the game as much as one likes isn't enough - as said above, any box-price only single player game offers this.

To what extent are MMO publishers charging us merely for the chance to be for providing content and environment for each other?

PS: For the record, here's the list of why I think EVE is worth a sub. I haven't included the gameplay because that's subjective. What I'm talking about here is whether the game company deserve your money. How do other publishers compare?

(1) Twice-yearly expansions (by MMO standards they're really just mini-expansions, but getting one every 6-8 months is nice) which are free to all subscribers. In fact they're mandatory.

(2) Free client download with a 14-day free trial, it costs nothing to "buy" the game, only to subscribe.

(3) Dev community is actively engaged with the players

(4) Frequent bug fix patches

(5) PLEX system allows you to play for free if you are willing to accept the in-game price

(6) All content is available to all players even "F2P" PLEX subs.

(7) Gameplay has been really improved over time (eg: they've made massive strides in combatting lag) and they're constantly updating and polishing the client

I don't agree with everything they've done over the last few years, especially the dreadful Incarna debacle but they've stayed commited to developing the game that I've committed to, and IMO that's what deserves my money.

I think an mmo should have the things you mentioned.  Although I dont mind paying for extra content if its extensive enough.

The biggest thing that justifies a subcription fee to me.... the type of players who play it.    Ive played quite alot of MMOs both FTP, subcription and the like.   FTP games have a higher amount of people who I just would rather not play with.  Subscription fees asl help deal with the gold sellers. 

For those reasons alone I am willing to pay a subscription fee.  Its unlikely i will play a game that doesnt have a subscription fee.

Honestly, for a subscription, a game should have ALL of the things you mentioned, OP. Even the optional. It's been so long since we've gotten that, that I think many players have forgotten about when subscription games were actively maintained, where devs actually engaged in the community, hosted events, added content, etc.

As the name implies, a subscription is paying for a service, and as such, we should be getting what we pay for. I.E. A launched game is around 60-75$ these days (depending on launch-day subscription or not). Not only had it better be a good game for that price, but a subscription is basically paying for an entirely new every 4 months or so. While that isn't entirely practical, we should at the very least be seeing regular improvements to the game, content additions, and active / vocal Devs engaging the community. What we've been getting is barely any fixes to recent games, quiet / aloof Devs who either don't seem to get involved much at all, or seem completely obvlivious to their fanbase (TOR i'm looking at you).

Honestly, this is one of the reasons why I think companies are starting to drift away from the subscription model. It sets a very high expectation for a game, one that so many studio have failed to deliver. And, at the end of the day, many people still just don't wanna deal w/ subscriptions anymore. They are too easily turned into scams or cash grabs.

One thing I will say, though, is that games that choose a business model should stick with one business model. When I see games that try and capitalize on every revenue model they can (TSW) it really puts a bad taste in my mouth. I'd think that gamers would be getting tired of being monetized to death (especially after D3, and ME3), but I guess not.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Is merely keeping the server open and spending a buck or two on the bandwidth enough, or do you demand more for your $10-$15 a month?

In my opinion, paying a subscription fee should entitle the MMO customer to expect at minimum the following:

(1) Frequent, regular bug-fixing and exploit-patching

(2) Competent, active GMs

(3) A game that's in a fully working condition to play, and which fufills the promises made by advertising (or at the least, has the reasonable expectation of fulfilling those not currently delivered in the near future)

(4) An active, responsive community team

 

I think paying subscribers should also reasonably expect at least some of:

(5) Access to all the content in the game without further payment

(6) An expectation that the game will continue to be developed and expanded, and for that direction to be communicated

(7) Some level of input or interaction with the Dev team as to the future direction of the game.

(8) Proper game documentation and tutorials

 

What are your thoughts? Which subscription MMOs actually deliver to your expectations for a subscription? Should subbed MMOs which don't deliver go F2P or should they raise their game, so to speak?

I think $15/month is pocket change. Money I could spend on almost anything without thinking about it before or after. All I want is a fun game that I feel like playing. If it is $15 is very cheap. I get a lot of entertainment and fun for that money.

Of course if there is a monthly fee and a P2W-cash shop anyway I would never buy it or play it. No xp potions, item enhancers or boost or time savers in general.  I prefer to pay monthly because I dont like and dont want things like that to be part of the game. If there is a cash shop like that it is not justified to also expect people to pay a subscription fee.

Originally posted by Hurvart

I think $15/month is pocket change. Money I could spend on almost anything without thinking about it before or after.

Your mum would be proud... after all, we only went to college to lord it over others.

*lights a cigar with bearer bonds*

For me, its mostly just about persistence.  They keep the world up, they keep my characters, that alone adds a whole other dimension to the game, that I'm willing to pay a sub price for, if I like the game enough.

Not saying I think it's the best payment model (I don't!) but its also just $15 a month.

The only way to go IMO is with a sub based game. Look at RIFT w/o the sub they wouldnt be able to put out the speed of which they put out content. IMO Rift justifies the SUB with how they are releasing content once every month to month 1/2. A Sub should also ensure fast and efficient CS which i think TRION provides, active gms which ive seen alot of on rift, community events which you see alot of on the forums (cake contest, Scavenger hunts, Extra Life charity, ECT ECT) The only issue trion seems to have is bug fixing.

Originally posted by DSWBeef

The only way to go IMO is with a sub based game. Look at RIFT w/o the sub they wouldnt be able to put out the speed of which they put out content. IMO Rift justifies the SUB with how they are releasing content once every month to month 1/2.

How much content can they possibly release that fast?

The kind of patches and bugfixes that Skyrim does with having only had bought the client itself, maybe?

Wanna know what your subs are paying for? Trion's NEXT MMO.

All subbed games are paying for their next investment, only the smallest fraction of it is actually cycled back into the product. Hard to believe so many people actually take up the camp that you need subs to create new content. If it was truly the case, then why do most games charge you for expansions regularly?

My very subjective of "what justifies subscription fee".

I would pay subscription happily for a mmorpg with design & features like:

1. It has to be mmorpg that create virtual world - so it provide also game on :

- economy (good crafting, player-made economy, viable gameplay as crafter or / and trader)  - good example SWG. Feel that player shops are must and AH should be limited and expensive or non-existant for it to work.

- sim, building in open world - player house, guild castles  - should include non-combat professions like furniture maker, decorator, etc

- farming, herding, taming - kinda self-explanatory

- exploring - seamless, vast world - non-railed rewards for exploring, so no-data-crons, but for example randomized chance to find temporary spots of unique one-time randomized crafting resources - again look at SWG also things like not all places appearing on a map even when uncovered from fog of war - examples could include small islands, some caverns, randomized small bosses / elites. etc

Fast travel - it NEEDS to be there but it have to be limited somehow. Be it expensive or maybe player having only limited number of "binded" fast travel destinations or maybe not always possible to fast travel (like carrying some resources disable fast travel) - well I am not game designer - so that are just random fast ideas.

2. Interdependability between players - good chunk of activities shoule be possible solo BUT it should be not possible to do everything by yourself.

Like for example having dozens of crafting alts on same server should not be possible. I know it is a game, but you cannot make everything by yourself in real world right?

So maybe a limit that only 1 character per server can craft, no matter how much alts are there?

+

some (but not overly much) content (also open world ones) made for groups

3. Game develoer actively fighting with botting, exploiting (rollbacks, banning , fast hotfixing)

4. No addons and macros

5. Each server it's own virtual world - no cross server LFG's

6. Reasonaly high production values. Would be best if AAA, but  It does not have to be 200 $ mln Swtor, but it cannot be indie or close-to-indie project like DFO or similar.

7. Absolutely NO CASH SHOP in any way.  Not even so called 'vanity shop'.   Want sub? Then no cash shop at all. Really simple.

Obviously no RMAH and similar things as well. Just one flat-payment plan for 'everything'. Box price and expansion price is permissable.

That also include no further addition of CS / RMAH.  If they put it 'later down the line' = me unsubbing.

Had enough of experience with slowly putting more microtransactions bit by bit in a game over the months / years.

Don't want to experence that again.

That's about it. I would be happy to pay sub for a game like that and I would even fork out higher sub rate for it. (think 20- 22 $ would be possible no problem).

No itemshop, no additional charges (besides boxes and monthly fees), a permanent world (Like EQ/Wow as example).

I am willing to pay 20 bucks a month for that, even 35 if the game is really good. I don´t start playing games with monthly fees that have any other charges though, then I might as well play B2P/F2P.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

If GW2 can do what they do (which is already 99% more then any other MMO) then I can never jsutify me paying a monthly sub fee except in the rare circumstances Ive been looking forward to the game for a while (TSW and TESO are the only 2 games on my immediate radar I will fork over a sub fee for) or if heaven forbids someone makes an updated Asherons Call in which I would gladly fork over $50.00 a month to pay as long as the popualtion was high enough.  (population issues is the only reason why I quit AC in the first place).

JEBUS! I really hope your not wrong here.I would totally hate you to be bored 1 month after launch with such high expectations.You would be devastated.Before some fanboy points it out,at least you will have no sub fee.After all box sales mean nothing.......Keep dodging that zerg dude!

I think that only EVE right now has right to ask for sub price.

When a game is world simulation where all players should be on equal ground it basically must have sub.

In all other cases - especially when we talk about theme park games or solo intensive games - i dont care if the other guy bought something with money or not.

They can just go and charge per content or items.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I think that only EVE right now has right to ask for sub price.

When a game is world simulation where all players should be on equal ground it basically must have sub.

In all other cases - especially when we talk about theme park games or solo intensive games - i dont care if the other guy bought something with money or not.

They can just go and charge per content or items.

Themeparks that are item based with PvP still gets messed up if people can buy good gear.

PvP based games are by far better as P2P (or B2P) possibly with cosmetic shop no matter if they are sandboxes or not.

     Nothing. Not a damned thing can justify a mandatory subscription anymore. If I pay $60 for a game it no longer makes sense that I should also pay an additional $15 to play the game I paid that $60 for. The whole subscription thing really doesn't make sense in that light... pay us for the game, but you can't play it until you pay us more! The $15/mo isn't important in and of itself; it's really not that much money. But the concept, especially now that it's been demonstrated that the subscription isn't required to maintain servers... yeah, it's the whole principle of it. It's like buying a refrigerator then having to pay GE $15/mo or they cut it off remotely. Doesn't make sense.