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Diablo 3

Diablo 3 

General Discussion  » How will Blizzard retaliate?

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140 posts found
  Torik

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2312

6/21/12 10:15:33 PM#121
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by doodphace

To everyone who is upset over this..

From the RMAH EULA:

"What happens if there is a patch and the item I purchased is altered?
It's important for us to ensure that Diablo III remains balanced and fun for years after launch. To that end, it may be necessary to change stats or alter abilities of items from time to time. It’s very important to note that Blizzard will not be providing refunds or making other accommodations if a purchased item is later altered in a patch. Given this, it's up to players to determine whether they're comfortable purchasing items in the real-money auction house."

 

Its not "law", but it is their terms that you agreed to...

I ask you all....why did you click "i agree" and proceed to buy items if you don't actually agree with it?

/sigh...

The EULA can't change federal, state or local laws.  There are laws which cover a variety of odd things which might apply.  People need to understand the EULA NEVER TRUMPS LAW.  . 

People also need to understand that if you agree to an EULA...things that you agreed to might actually happen...

So far everyone butthurt over this keeps bringing up "EULA doesnt trump the LAW"..but nobody has been able to say which law its "trying" to trump...

We  understand.  You have to understand that LAW is higher than a lowly EULA.  There are many cases of using services (such as ski resorts) where tickets have statements about buying the ticket (Like EULA) means the resort isn't liable for damages.  Guess what, in a lawsuit, it has minimal effect.

Liability waivers are a different legal issue than this.  The EULA is not even that important in this matter beyond establishing that Blizzard made the players aware that the 'value' of the items could change after a patch. 

This is actually pretty basic buyer-seller law.  If you buy something but what you receive is substantially different than what the seller told you you were buying then you are entitiled to return it and get your money back.  However, if you were sold exactly what you were told you would receive, the seller is not required to refund you anything.  Blizzard is providing the players a service and as far as I can see the service worked as advertised. 

The big issue is whether the credit card companies will honor the chargebacks and what Blizzard will do if this happens. 

 

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3711

RIP City of Heroes!

6/22/12 12:04:38 AM#122
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by doodphace

To everyone who is upset over this..

From the RMAH EULA:

"What happens if there is a patch and the item I purchased is altered?
It's important for us to ensure that Diablo III remains balanced and fun for years after launch. To that end, it may be necessary to change stats or alter abilities of items from time to time. It’s very important to note that Blizzard will not be providing refunds or making other accommodations if a purchased item is later altered in a patch. Given this, it's up to players to determine whether they're comfortable purchasing items in the real-money auction house."

 

Its not "law", but it is their terms that you agreed to...

I ask you all....why did you click "i agree" and proceed to buy items if you don't actually agree with it?

/sigh...

The EULA can't change federal, state or local laws.  There are laws which cover a variety of odd things which might apply.  People need to understand the EULA NEVER TRUMPS LAW.  . 

People also need to understand that if you agree to an EULA...things that you agreed to might actually happen...

So far everyone butthurt over this keeps bringing up "EULA doesnt trump the LAW"..but nobody has been able to say which law its "trying" to trump...

We  understand.  You have to understand that LAW is higher than a lowly EULA.  There are many cases of using services (such as ski resorts) where tickets have statements about buying the ticket (Like EULA) means the resort isn't liable for damages.  Guess what, in a lawsuit, it has minimal effect.

Liability waivers are a different legal issue than this.  The EULA is not even that important in this matter beyond establishing that Blizzard made the players aware that the 'value' of the items could change after a patch. 

This is actually pretty basic buyer-seller law.  If you buy something but what you receive is substantially different than what the seller told you you were buying then you are entitiled to return it and get your money back.  However, if you were sold exactly what you were told you would receive, the seller is not required to refund you anything.  Blizzard is providing the players a service and as far as I can see the service worked as advertised. 

The big issue is whether the credit card companies will honor the chargebacks and what Blizzard will do if this happens. 

 

EULA doesn't cover sales laws or consumer laws.  The game was misrepresented in that at the time of sale, you were not required to purchase an authenticator.  That is a legit refund bit.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5178

6/22/12 1:18:21 AM#123
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by doodphace

To everyone who is upset over this..

From the RMAH EULA:

"What happens if there is a patch and the item I purchased is altered?
It's important for us to ensure that Diablo III remains balanced and fun for years after launch. To that end, it may be necessary to change stats or alter abilities of items from time to time. It’s very important to note that Blizzard will not be providing refunds or making other accommodations if a purchased item is later altered in a patch. Given this, it's up to players to determine whether they're comfortable purchasing items in the real-money auction house."

 

Its not "law", but it is their terms that you agreed to...

I ask you all....why did you click "i agree" and proceed to buy items if you don't actually agree with it?

/sigh...

The EULA can't change federal, state or local laws.  There are laws which cover a variety of odd things which might apply.  People need to understand the EULA NEVER TRUMPS LAW.  . 

People also need to understand that if you agree to an EULA...things that you agreed to might actually happen...

So far everyone butthurt over this keeps bringing up "EULA doesnt trump the LAW"..but nobody has been able to say which law its "trying" to trump...

We  understand.  You have to understand that LAW is higher than a lowly EULA.  There are many cases of using services (such as ski resorts) where tickets have statements about buying the ticket (Like EULA) means the resort isn't liable for damages.  Guess what, in a lawsuit, it has minimal effect.

Liability waivers are a different legal issue than this.  The EULA is not even that important in this matter beyond establishing that Blizzard made the players aware that the 'value' of the items could change after a patch. 

This is actually pretty basic buyer-seller law.  If you buy something but what you receive is substantially different than what the seller told you you were buying then you are entitiled to return it and get your money back.  However, if you were sold exactly what you were told you would receive, the seller is not required to refund you anything.  Blizzard is providing the players a service and as far as I can see the service worked as advertised. 

The big issue is whether the credit card companies will honor the chargebacks and what Blizzard will do if this happens. 

 

EULA doesn't cover sales laws or consumer laws.  The game was misrepresented in that at the time of sale, you were not required to purchase an authenticator.  That is a legit refund bit.

 You're not required to purchase an authenticator now.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2624

6/22/12 2:21:15 AM#124

Asking for a chargeback is not right because you bought the game and you got it. Even if you didn't like the game, you are not entitled to a refund. You only ask for a chargeback when you are mistreated. But arguments that the game is not fun or that the company has made a change you don't like are not enough for a chargeback.

Also I don't know what Blizzard's policy is but the vast majority of PC games are non-refundable because of the one off CD Key required to play the game.You knew this when you bought the game so you have to suck it up.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Bushi131

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 64

6/22/12 3:20:34 AM#125

They should have an extra tooltip on the tooltip saying : "Beware this item might be change in future patch"

Like there is a tooltip on cigaret pack saying : " Beware smoking can kill you"

ONce again warn people and take responsibilities, that should be pretty much build in.

But hey it took million dead and 70 years for the cigaret company to come this far, with almost 0% drop dead rate in gaming this might never ever change.

But it is still funny to see that the one people spending real money are the one duped.

Last time I bought a wooden kitchen table for my house, it was nerfed and became a night drawers. <-when will that ever happens ? :)

  flbellman

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/12
Posts: 11

6/22/12 3:45:33 AM#126

Read my previous post.

I am a lawyer in Italy. I checked the EULA according to  the Italian Consumer Law and thery are pretty much void/voidable. As Italia Consumer Law is a wrap up of EU Directives, so I think that EULA can be challenged in other EU members as well, and witha  good degree of success. I committed myself for fun becasue my friends were extremely annoyed about D3, especially at the beginning. In Italy there is a way to challenge such EULA in front of a Independent Authority. If I have the time, I will do that. I already drafted a documents with notes.

On a different note, people should be careful, law is not an easy matter at all, and multiple answers may address the same issue. So it is very hard for nonexperienced people to assess the valididy of a contract, EULA etc...Lawyers are there for a reason other than sucking your blood (which is not that good, I assure you).

Finally. about lawyers, you may read "Lawyers and other reptiles". Great fun.

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

6/22/12 4:14:40 AM#127

I think most companies know that the EULA/TOS will not be valid in all countries. And that they will often lose in court if someone really wants to fight them.

But very few players do that. Most believe the EULA/TOS is valid. And that they must accept it. And most ordinary players dont think a $50 game is important enough to hire lawyers, go to court and so on. Its probaby better to just stop playing the game and to perhaps never buy anymore games from that company. If enough people do that it will hurt them more.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

6/22/12 4:18:59 AM#128
Originally posted by flbellman
I am a lawyer in Italy. I checked the EULA according to  the Italian Consumer Law and thery are pretty much void/voidable. As Italia Consumer Law is a wrap up of EU Directives, so I think that EULA can be challenged in other EU members as well, and witha  good degree of success.

Of course EULAs can be challenged, but the challenge to gamers (always) on message boards who yack yack about lawyers is a simple one: put up, or shut up.  We know how rarely people are upset enough to actually go through the time and expense in the real world, as opposed to the "talk is cheap" world.

Generally, once gamers find out that the threat of lawyers to Blizzard will cause your account to be closed while you're turned over to the Blizzard legal team and litigation proceeds takes the bluster right out of the offended players.

"What?  You mean I can't play and sue them at the same time? Naw, I'm not really that serious."

And we strongly suspect that 95% of claims that "I'm a lawyer!" on a message board are about as legitmate as we've come to expect from the honesty on the internet, of course.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  flbellman

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/12
Posts: 11

6/22/12 4:44:55 AM#129

My draft notes are on the web already on FB., but are in Italian. I founded a group. Are you interested and maybe from Europe?

  flbellman

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/12
Posts: 11

6/22/12 5:14:21 AM#130

Follow up: Sadly I am a lawyer for sure.  So my claim is legitimate. Secondly, if you read my previous posts I am not fostering any private litigation against Blizzard. I am evaluating to challange EULA accoding to our laws, not for refunds (which may come later. maybe) but to have the EULA declared void according to our Consumer Law. Good luck with your Italian:Art. 5 (Tutela amministrativa contro le clausole vessatorie)

1. Al decreto legislativo 6 settembre 2005, n.206 dopo l’articolo 37 è aggiunto il seguente “Art. 37 bis (Tutela amministrativa contro le clausole vessatorie) 1. L’Autorità Garante della Concorrenza e del Mercato, previo accordo con le associazioni di categoria, d’ufficio o su denuncia dei consumatori interessati, ai soli fini di cui ai commi successivi, dichiara la vessatorietà delle clausole inserite nei contratti tra professionisti e consumatori che si concludono mediante adesione a condizioni generali di contratto o con la sottoscrizione di moduli, modelli o formulari.
2. Il provvedimento che accerta la vessatorietà della clausola è diffuso mediante pubblicazione su apposita sezione del sito internet istituzionale dell’Autorità, sul sito dell’operatore che adotta la clausola ritenuta vessatoria e mediante ogni altro mezzo ritenuto opportuno in relazione all’esigenza di informare compiutamente i consumatori.
3. Le imprese interessate hanno facoltà di interpellare preventivamente l’Autorità in merito alle vessatorietà delle clausole che intendono utilizzare nei rapporti commerciali con i consumatori. Le clausole non ritenute vessatorie a seguito di interpello, non possono essere successivamente valutate dall’Autorità per gli effetti di cui al comma 2. Resta in ogni caso ferma la responsabilità dei professionisti nei confronti dei consumatori.
4. In materia di tutela giurisdizionale, contro gli atti dell’Autorità, adottati in applicazione del presente articolo, è competente il giudice amministrativo. E’ fatta salva la giurisdizione del giudice ordinario sulla validità delle clausole vessatorie e sul risarcimento del danno.”.

 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

6/22/12 5:25:46 AM#131

Don't care, sorry.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Kothoses

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/08/10
Posts: 669

6/22/12 5:30:23 AM#132
Originally posted by Terranah
Originally posted by doodphace

IAS nerf was announced close to 3 weeks ago...RMAH went live 7 days ago...how in the world are any of those RMAH purchaces "bait & switch" or in any way worthy of a refund?

Relax folkes, your fanboy nerd rage organs are showing...

The majority of people don't read the forums remember.  Forum people only represent a very small minority of gamers.  So it's very possible many people had no idea.

That wont be an acceptable excuse if it goes to a small claims court.

 

Ignorance is never an acceptable excuse, its why so many companies get away with shafting people through small print, just because a consumer cant be bothered to read all the fine print, does not invalidate it.

 

If they didnt know it will come down to "Was the information fairly available" if it was then they will get laughed at.

 

Loving this to be honest, cant wait to see how the "EULA is not LAW" brigade do when it actually goes to any kind of court.  They will find that multi billion dollar companies do not do their legal work as an afterthought.

Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

6/22/12 5:41:13 AM#133

I don't like the ideas of people buying stuff and return it after a while, it takes away the responsibility of the consumer.

Sure, if you buy something that breaks after a weeks normal use you should get your money back but in this case some easy research would have stopped you from buying the game.

Yes, people making stuff do have responsibility against the consumers but we have a responsibility to check what we are buying as well.

If you can't play the game then fine, you should be refunded but the error 37 have been fixed. If you have a computer with minimum reqs that can't run it you surely should get you refund, that is Blizz fault, not your.

But that you assumed it was better is not really a solid argument, you should really check what you are buying. 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18787

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/22/12 5:48:49 AM#134

I'm guessing the death squads already have their marching orders and are fanning out across the globe to "take care of" those people foolish enough to dare to do a chargeback on D3.

Probably take their hearts for some sort of satanic ritual as well. 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18787

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/22/12 5:51:28 AM#135
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by flbellman
I am a lawyer in Italy. I checked the EULA according to  the Italian Consumer Law and thery are pretty much void/voidable. As Italia Consumer Law is a wrap up of EU Directives, so I think that EULA can be challenged in other EU members as well, and witha  good degree of success.

Of course EULAs can be challenged, but the challenge to gamers (always) on message boards who yack yack about lawyers is a simple one: put up, or shut up.  We know how rarely people are upset enough to actually go through the time and expense in the real world, as opposed to the "talk is cheap" world.

Generally, once gamers find out that the threat of lawyers to Blizzard will cause your account to be closed while you're turned over to the Blizzard legal team and litigation proceeds takes the bluster right out of the offended players.

"What?  You mean I can't play and sue them at the same time? Naw, I'm not really that serious."

And we strongly suspect that 95% of claims that "I'm a lawyer!" on a message board are about as legitmate as we've come to expect from the honesty on the internet, of course.

LOL, as if any worthwhile lawyer would actually have time to waste on playing MMORPG's and posting on message board forums.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  flbellman

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/12
Posts: 11

6/22/12 9:12:33 AM#136

Well, I never played any MMORPG, I admit. I just  log in to Achaea in the weekends (1 or two hours). I do that because it is fun  basically to improve my language skills. Awsome retrogaming, but I honestly I do not have time to play or code. IP related to videgames and the internet is a very exciting matter, also becasue is the future of advertising law.  When I did an LLM in NY we went through some cases related to VG, Blizzard as well. So, as I was a gamer myself, I always loved to do anything related to VG. Besides, if you want to discuss over VG, you must know a bit of them. No, I never bought  or played D3. My friends asked to join in, but guess what?...I had no time. Anyway, D3 is a new business model in VG industry, and this is very exciting. I am 39 years old and I was born with VG. I cannot play them but I like to read about them.

If a lawyer is worthwile is very hard to tell, and surely cannot be argued over the internet (at the moment).

One year ago, I started to look at the web in a very different way. So, I do not play mmorpg, but  I know what they are.

The only sad thing is that, as to now, I got only negative, dismissive, ironic comments, while, everybody in this forum should know that Korea actually did something about D3. I am not aware of the stage of the proceedings, tough. Posting in a forum is  just an experiment for me (check my numbers) but I sense that it is very hard to have good quality informations/interaction/comments. No big surprise, and the fact that I am a lawyer surely does not help that.

I will have a meeting with a consumer association, hopefully in July, to evaluate if we can quash Blizzard EULA. I must start with them. I am not sure if they have the guts to promote the procedure... there are lawyers there as well....Also, fact is I am so busy that I am not sure if I have the time. I drafted the legal issues in the last weekends. You know, I work 10/12 hours a day...I am a lawyer!

END OF LINE

  Banquetto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1026

6/24/12 5:32:21 AM#137


Originally posted by waynejr2
The game was misrepresented in that at the time of sale, you were not required to purchase an authenticator.  That is a legit refund bit.

What? It was announced long before release that the RMAH would require you to have an authenticator. I certainly knew about it, not that it was of any significance to me since I already had the free mobile auth on my account from playing WoW previously. But it was definitely in the RMAH FAQ or one of the press releases or somewhere.

  Traugar

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 167

6/24/12 5:46:13 AM#138
Originally posted by Adam1902

The people doing these chargebacks should expect a bill. Let me spell it out:

  • The TOS states that you don't own ANYTHING in the game. Just a lisence to play, and a lisence to use a particular item.
  • It also states that they anything is subject to change, with or without prior notice.
  • Not only do Blizzard not even have to announce changes like these, but they did so before releasing the RMAH. It was on the login screen where everyone could see.
  • I bet the people making chargebacks explained it in the form of "they purchased an item from Blizzard, which was then changed". Rather than saying it was an auction buying the item from another player where the transaction was facilitated by Blizzard.
These are the obvious points. Now lets look at what happens to Blizzard when you charge back.
Blizzard take £1 and 15% out of the buyer, listing the item. So for a £100 item sale, Blizzard recieve make £16. You are taking £100 off Blizzard. They lose £84.
 
  • It's rumored that 4 years of D3's development time was spent sorting out all the legalities of the RMAH.
  • Blizzard have very good lawyers, and were the first to legally take down a bot company.
  • Thousands of people doing this are causing a big loss for the corporate giants.
Blizzard will get in touch with the CC companies, the CC companies will go "shit, we're sorry" (OR will they!? This could get quite interesting), and Blizzard will send you a bill of whatever you charged back, and you'll get bad credit and lose your RMAH access.
 
I can actually see this catastrophe luring media attention, too.

Not quite.  Blizz doesn't have your SSN so there is no danger of you getting bad credit from it.  As for the rest of it you have what the players agreed to in the TOS vs Blizzards merchant agreement vs consumer protection laws.  In light of the two latter ones the TOS will probably mean the least considering it isn't actually a legally binding contract.  What does matter is the merchant agreement that Blizzard has in order to accept credit card payments since it actually is a legal contract, and was writting with consumer protection laws in mind.  As for a forum post to let people know that it would be changing that really doesn't cut it for providing notice.  They have to be able to prove that the player was informed.  If they can't prove that the player was informed then from the CC company standing it has a good chance of being labeled bait and switch.  

  nyxium

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/09
Posts: 1198

Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

6/24/12 5:50:58 AM#139

Chargebacks are the devils horns. In certain parts of the anatomy, at the rear.

There is no defence against being charged back. All the fraudsters have to do is say their account was hacked, simple as that.. The Feds probably will get involved if mass fraud is going on. Why did I sub? Whhhyyyy. That said I'm glad I left early. And probably said not for the last time.

  flbellman

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/12
Posts: 11

6/24/12 9:00:11 AM#140
All I can say, is that discussion on D3, if intelligent, are more interestng that the game per se, which I never bought. There are many legal issue that it s too exciting to let it go. Besides, Blizzard registered offices in Italy are 200 meter from my offices. Anyway, remember that EULA can trump the law, but not always. Assessing this matter is lawyer work, not general knowledge. Also answer may vary from country to country both under a theoric and/or practical approach. In my opinion, Blizzard went too far with D3, and it is exploiting its customers. This is a landmark case, also because of the RMAH. It is super funny!
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