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Diablo 3

Diablo 3 

General Discussion  » How will Blizzard retaliate?

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140 posts found
  User Deleted
6/19/12 11:48:57 PM#61

SOOOO many people on this site are clueless omg a TOS/EULA   MEAN SHIT.  They're not legally binding infact blizzard CANNOT prove you read the dam thing.  It's worth as much as the paper it's not printed on.

 

EULA DOES NOT CHANGE LAWS it does not make what they're doing legal or illegal. 

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

6/19/12 11:50:52 PM#62
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by colddog04

So then, Blizzard pays the bill and the person that did the chargeback keeps the item anyway.

 

It is a good question... how are they going to combat this?

 

I think they should ban anyone that does a chargeback. That would stop the behavior pretty quickly. You would lose some customers and it would be a PR nightmare, but I think this is a situation where the behavior just needs to be stopped dead in its tracks.

 

I'm glad it's not going well for them. I'd rather not see this model repeated any time soon.

I think the behavior that needs to be stopped is companies making real money auction houses with virtual goods that they can change on a whim.

 

Real money for virtual goods that can be changed at anytime.

 

Whatta Racket

Yeah, Blizzard should have realized that balancing stats on gear when you have an RMAH is full retard. They still need to stop it though.

 

On a side note, check out this amazing thread:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5889089149

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Jimmydean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1295

6/19/12 11:51:24 PM#63
Originally posted by William12

SOOOO many people on this site are clueless omg a TOS/EULA   MEAN SHIT.  They're not legally binding infact blizzard CANNOT prove you read the dam thing.  It's worth as much as the paper it's not printed on.

 

EULA DOES NOT CHANGE LAWS it does not make what they're doing legal or illegal. 

Exactly. Clicking accept gives them power over your game character / items. It does not give them legal power over you.

  Aori

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/06
Posts: 1749

 
OP  6/19/12 11:51:54 PM#64
Originally posted by paroxysm

Seriously, who didn't see this coming or wasn't told this was coming.

 

I'm not going to argue legality of a ToS/EULA/etc or how it affects pre-existing law.  With enough money and time, it's been proven time and time again that someone will find a loophole and someone will fight that loophole with another loophole.  What gets me is, what will Blizzard do.  They are the big target of the entire industry.  Their Activision brothers and their actions aren't well thought of as is.  No matter how you look at it.  No matter how it plays out.  This is a PR nightmare that will dwarf previuos WoW fiascos.  The sheer number of articles and debates over this will be huge.  Opportunistic people will be lying in wait for the outcome and the possibilities that follow.  And... this will not be the last problem with the RMAH.  The box is open.

Thank you for this post, that is what i'm most curious in, what will blizzard do. Dispite what people may think, this is a very huge deal and effects everybody who plays online games.

  laserit

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1367

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

6/19/12 11:52:40 PM#65

Come to think about it. Blizzard could nerf items... claiming balance issues. You know... get the old aution house rolling with people needing to replace their nerfed gear.

A sleezy business and very contriversial business.

The Genius... 

 

 

I believe a company with ethics would stay clear of something like this.

 

 

Zenimax kicked my dog

  alexmino

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 134

6/19/12 11:55:23 PM#66

People paying money in a buy to play game so they can get virtual items in a game which has the entire goal of aquiring virtual items are funny.

 

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

6/20/12 12:00:07 AM#67
Originally posted by alexmino

People paying money in a buy to play game so they can get virtual items in a game which has the entire goal of aquiring virtual items are funny.

 

I've been sitting back giggling about this for weeks now. Honestly I'm glad I stuck to my guns and didn't buy D3, all the controversy and forum posts surrounding it are by far more entertaining.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  simmihi

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 501

6/20/12 12:00:38 AM#68
Originally posted by Aori
Originally posted by paroxysm

Seriously, who didn't see this coming or wasn't told this was coming.

 

I'm not going to argue legality of a ToS/EULA/etc or how it affects pre-existing law.  With enough money and time, it's been proven time and time again that someone will find a loophole and someone will fight that loophole with another loophole.  What gets me is, what will Blizzard do.  They are the big target of the entire industry.  Their Activision brothers and their actions aren't well thought of as is.  No matter how you look at it.  No matter how it plays out.  This is a PR nightmare that will dwarf previuos WoW fiascos.  The sheer number of articles and debates over this will be huge.  Opportunistic people will be lying in wait for the outcome and the possibilities that follow.  And... this will not be the last problem with the RMAH.  The box is open.

Thank you for this post, that is what i'm most curious in, what will blizzard do. Dispite what people may think, this is a very huge deal and effects everybody who plays online games.

 

It is a very huge deal indeed. Maybe from now on they will actually TEST their games internally before release. Allowing trading of virtual items for real money in an untested environment is a enormous mistake. A huge part of patch 1.0.3 should have been implemented from the start. It just takes a team of good testers to see that IAS is an overpowered stat and that Inferno damage is cheap and Act II is a wall. Can't a company like Blizzard afford to pay 8 guys, good gamers, to test their shiz?

As for chargebacks, the items are owned by Blizzard and only "lend" to the players for usage, they reserve the right to do anything to them. I have strong doubts that they can lose this if they go all the way with it BUT it ruins their image. To ban a buyer's account for a chargeback also kinda means that you ban a guy who is willing to spend a great amount of money for gaming, losing him as a client.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5178

6/20/12 12:08:11 AM#69

This won't amount to much. How much are you willing to spend to recover a maximum of $250.00? You won't even get a lawyer to look at this one. Blizzard could eat the cost of every chargeback, banning the accounts of course, and still make money. Remember the items themselves cost Blizzard nothing.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/20/12 12:09:11 AM#70
Originally posted by simmihi
To ban a buyer's account for a chargeback also kinda means that you ban a guy who is willing to spend a great amount of money for gaming, losing him as a client.

To Blizz, it's likely akin to a guy that orders off of Ebay and then demands a chargeback while the item is already in transit. How many people bought items knowing there was going to be a change in stats, full-well expecting a chance to chargeback and get it for free? Not to mention those that requested one on items that weren't even affected by it? How many man-hours would have to go into investigating what is a legit claim and what isn't? What governing body is going to determine what a legit claim here is in the first place?

It's all serious gray-area that favors Blizz atm, IMO.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Jimmydean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1295

6/20/12 12:12:13 AM#71
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by simmihi
To ban a buyer's account for a chargeback also kinda means that you ban a guy who is willing to spend a great amount of money for gaming, losing him as a client.

To Blizz, it's likely akin to a guy that orders off of Ebay and then demands a chargeback while the item is already in transit. How many people bought items knowing there was going to be a change in stats, full-well expecting a chance to chargeback and get it for free? Not to mention those that requested one on items that weren't even affected by it? How many man-hours would have to go into investigating what is a legit claim and what isn't? What governing body is going to determine what a legit claim here is in the first place?

It's all serious gray-area that favors Blizz atm, IMO.

At best Blizzard loses a customer. Even though Blizzard has a large following, losing customers is never a good business strategy.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5178

6/20/12 12:16:42 AM#72
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by simmihi
To ban a buyer's account for a chargeback also kinda means that you ban a guy who is willing to spend a great amount of money for gaming, losing him as a client.

To Blizz, it's likely akin to a guy that orders off of Ebay and then demands a chargeback while the item is already in transit. How many people bought items knowing there was going to be a change in stats, full-well expecting a chance to chargeback and get it for free? Not to mention those that requested one on items that weren't even affected by it? How many man-hours would have to go into investigating what is a legit claim and what isn't? What governing body is going to determine what a legit claim here is in the first place?

It's all serious gray-area that favors Blizz atm, IMO.

At best Blizzard loses a customer. Even though Blizzard has a large following, losing customers is never a good business strategy.

 It is when they abuse chargebacks. You don't want thieves for customers unless you run a prison.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Aori

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/06
Posts: 1749

 
OP  6/20/12 12:17:20 AM#73
Originally posted by zymurgeist

This won't amount to much. How much are you willing to spend to recover a maximum of $250.00? You won't even get a lawyer to look at this one. Blizzard could eat the cost of every chargeback, banning the accounts of course, and still make money. Remember the items themselves cost Blizzard nothing.

I don't think you get how the system works, I sell 2 items to the same person for $250 each. I get $423 and blizzard gets $77. Now the person charges blizzard back for $500 which in turn makes blizzard eat $423 if the chargeback is successful.

This is costing them ALOT, it adds up fast.

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3709

RIP City of Heroes!

6/20/12 12:17:26 AM#74
Originally posted by Adam1902

The people doing these chargebacks should expect a bill. Let me spell it out:

  • The TOS states that you don't own ANYTHING in the game. Just a lisence to play, and a lisence to use a particular item.
  • It also states that they anything is subject to change, with or without prior notice.
  • Not only do Blizzard not even have to announce changes like these, but they did so before releasing the RMAH. It was on the login screen where everyone could see.
  • I bet the people making chargebacks explained it in the form of "they purchased an item from Blizzard, which was then changed". Rather than saying it was an auction buying the item from another player where the transaction was facilitated by Blizzard.
These are the obvious points. Now lets look at what happens to Blizzard when you charge back.
Blizzard take £1 and 15% out of the buyer, listing the item. So for a £100 item sale, Blizzard recieve make £16. You are taking £100 off Blizzard. They lose £84.
 
  • It's rumored that 4 years of D3's development time was spent sorting out all the legalities of the RMAH.
  • Blizzard have very good lawyers, and were the first to legally take down a bot company.
  • Thousands of people doing this are causing a big loss for the corporate giants.
Blizzard will get in touch with the CC companies, the CC companies will go "shit, we're sorry" (OR will they!? This could get quite interesting), and Blizzard will send you a bill of whatever you charged back, and you'll get bad credit and lose your RMAH access.
 
I can actually see this catastrophe luring media attention, too.

They have to be careful.  EULA is not law and if someone takes it to court and the court is forced to make a ruling on virtual property, then blizzard might end up on the wrong end of the ruling.  It only takes the wrong judge to make this happen and will open the doors to all virtual property.

  Jimmydean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1295

6/20/12 12:19:05 AM#75
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by simmihi
To ban a buyer's account for a chargeback also kinda means that you ban a guy who is willing to spend a great amount of money for gaming, losing him as a client.

To Blizz, it's likely akin to a guy that orders off of Ebay and then demands a chargeback while the item is already in transit. How many people bought items knowing there was going to be a change in stats, full-well expecting a chance to chargeback and get it for free? Not to mention those that requested one on items that weren't even affected by it? How many man-hours would have to go into investigating what is a legit claim and what isn't? What governing body is going to determine what a legit claim here is in the first place?

It's all serious gray-area that favors Blizz atm, IMO.

At best Blizzard loses a customer. Even though Blizzard has a large following, losing customers is never a good business strategy.

 It is when they abuse chargebacks. You don't want thieves for customers unless you run a prison.

Well ya know what they say, "No honor amongst theives". Steal money from people, and they might just fight back.

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1234

6/20/12 12:20:17 AM#76

To everyone who is upset over this..

From the RMAH EULA:

"What happens if there is a patch and the item I purchased is altered?
It's important for us to ensure that Diablo III remains balanced and fun for years after launch. To that end, it may be necessary to change stats or alter abilities of items from time to time. It’s very important to note that Blizzard will not be providing refunds or making other accommodations if a purchased item is later altered in a patch. Given this, it's up to players to determine whether they're comfortable purchasing items in the real-money auction house."

 

Its not "law", but it is their terms that you agreed to...

I ask you all....why did you click "i agree" and proceed to buy items if you don't actually agree with it?

/sigh...

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3709

RIP City of Heroes!

6/20/12 12:25:26 AM#77
Originally posted by doodphace

To everyone who is upset over this..

From the RMAH EULA:

"What happens if there is a patch and the item I purchased is altered?
It's important for us to ensure that Diablo III remains balanced and fun for years after launch. To that end, it may be necessary to change stats or alter abilities of items from time to time. It’s very important to note that Blizzard will not be providing refunds or making other accommodations if a purchased item is later altered in a patch. Given this, it's up to players to determine whether they're comfortable purchasing items in the real-money auction house."

 

Its not "law", but it is their terms that you agreed to...

I ask you all....why did you click "i agree" and proceed to buy items if you don't actually agree with it?

/sigh...

The EULA can't change federal, state or local laws.  There are laws which cover a variety of odd things which might apply.  People need to understand the EULA NEVER TRUMPS LAW.  . 

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1351

6/20/12 12:27:14 AM#78
Originally posted by Aori
Originally posted by Rednecksith
Originally posted by zymurgeist

How the hell are they going to chargeback a auction item? Paypal has already agreed not to. You chargeback paypal and you're in for a fight. If you chargeback a game purchase Blizzard bans all your accounts and refuses to deal with you again.

If I were Blizzard, I'd also be sending them a bill. If they refused to pay, I'd sic a collections agency on them. That'll look really good on their credit reports, eh?

Actually blizzard would need to appeal to the CC company or file suit. I don't know the mass at which this is happening but if a few thousand people chargeback for "bait and switch" then blizzard could see its name on a blacklist.

What makes it interesting is how it'll all unfold, the early damages could really harm blizzard even if they can be fixed or "justly" corrected later.

 

My god... I hate when this shit comes up and all the armchairs lawyers show up.... This isn't close to bait and switch, which is advertising an item and then offering something else when the consumer comes to buy said item and told that said item is not available. The items purchased were the exact items up for sale, which were then subsequently changed during a patch. You received what was being offered. You have zero legal ground and will loose. End of discussion. This is ridiculous.
  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1234

6/20/12 12:27:56 AM#79
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by doodphace

To everyone who is upset over this..

From the RMAH EULA:

"What happens if there is a patch and the item I purchased is altered?
It's important for us to ensure that Diablo III remains balanced and fun for years after launch. To that end, it may be necessary to change stats or alter abilities of items from time to time. It’s very important to note that Blizzard will not be providing refunds or making other accommodations if a purchased item is later altered in a patch. Given this, it's up to players to determine whether they're comfortable purchasing items in the real-money auction house."

 

Its not "law", but it is their terms that you agreed to...

I ask you all....why did you click "i agree" and proceed to buy items if you don't actually agree with it?

/sigh...

The EULA can't change federal, state or local laws.  There are laws which cover a variety of odd things which might apply.  People need to understand the EULA NEVER TRUMPS LAW.  . 

People also need to understand that if you agree to an EULA...things that you agreed to might actually happen...

So far everyone butthurt over this keeps bringing up "EULA doesnt trump the LAW"..but nobody has been able to say which law its "trying" to trump...

  Jimmydean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1295

6/20/12 12:29:12 AM#80
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by doodphace

To everyone who is upset over this..

From the RMAH EULA:

"What happens if there is a patch and the item I purchased is altered?
It's important for us to ensure that Diablo III remains balanced and fun for years after launch. To that end, it may be necessary to change stats or alter abilities of items from time to time. It’s very important to note that Blizzard will not be providing refunds or making other accommodations if a purchased item is later altered in a patch. Given this, it's up to players to determine whether they're comfortable purchasing items in the real-money auction house."

 

Its not "law", but it is their terms that you agreed to...

I ask you all....why did you click "i agree" and proceed to buy items if you don't actually agree with it?

/sigh...

The EULA can't change federal, state or local laws.  There are laws which cover a variety of odd things which might apply.  People need to understand the EULA NEVER TRUMPS LAW.  . 

People also need to understand that if you agree to an EULA...things that you agreed to might actually happen...

So far everyone butthurt over this keeps bringing up "EULA doesnt trump the LAW"..but nobody has been able to say which law its "trying" to trump...

Probably the non existent law that would let Blizzard go after people who file chargebacks.  Blizzard can ban accounts in this situation, nothing more.

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