Originally posted by Deleted User

What would you consider to be the last great mmo ?  Most mmos are made up of combat and story. Not understanding what you want.

Brought to you by a jaded gamer

As a hint I made this post originally for Tera around 2011 and instead got something very very different from what I wanted.

***** Copied & Pasted ******

Here is what I am looking for in an mmorpg:
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I have played lineage 2 from c1 through the latest chronicle on and off, as well as almost every other MMORPG. I loved l2 but hate ncsoft and will never play another game by this company. I have been watching/waiting for TERA for the last 4+ years, and have a few collective thoughts I'd like to share to ensure the success of TERA.

What seperated l2 from other mmorpgs
The pvp system: Most MMORPG's are faction based (mostly 2-sided) pvp systems. L2 had it right in the beginning. You could pvp anyone with a risk/reward/flagging system. However, currently in L2 there is no risk in going red (easy to work off karma, and just about all gear can be safe-guarded from being dropped). I believe to implement a successful open-pvp system, there needs to be a risk vs reward system. The person pvping should think "is killing (or attempting to kill) this other player worth risking this." Loosing exp is a great way to keep the user grinding/partying/playing the game. The flag/karma system was a great way to keep someone from going on a killing spree (aka keeps griefers in check), but the lack of updating it made a person to be able to work off max karma in a few seconds (especially with the new bishop skill to not loose exp upon death).

My solution: create an open pvp system where the following happens:
#1 If you kill a player or get killed by a player, you loose 2 hours worth of exp grind.
#2 same flagging system l2 had, but if you hit a player make the player flagged last at least 5 minutes (there are other mmorpg's that use this but they are rare).
#3 same karma system l2 had but make it exp * level needed to -karma (makes it take at least 2 hours for the player to work off karma) and the player cannot die off karma, or implement a timing system like perfect world had (kill 1 unflagged = red for 1 hour, kill 2 = red for 3 hours, so forth).
#4 if killed while red, chance to drop 1-5 pieces of items/gear (no augmentation safe-guard).
#5 Allow clans/guilds (whatever they are called) to declare wars on each other and be able to kill each other without flagging or going red. The point of joining a clan is for protection and a clan war should be for the sole purpose of destroying another clan and not "oh lets declare war so we only loose 1/4 exp when we get killed and can go on our daily grind like nothing happened."
#6 allow the user to turn pvp off (he can be killed by other players, but wont accidentally hit a player while trying to kill a monster causing the user to be flagged).

This will ultimately make the end game a community based game which is what has kept l2 going for so long, and not doing the same last raid boss over 9,000 times.

The grind: IMO if l2 had been heavily monitored kicking bots/farmers on the spots it would have been the top game over wow. The grind is what caused players to group up, socialize, and talk while effectively setting goals to get stronger for their character. The whole point of a MMORPG is to play with other people, not rush to max level by yourself in 2 days and just hit end game. I once played a 5x rate private server of L2 that had a system of a modified client (no two-boxing or botting) and no donating for items (quest items only so you didn't have to do the 2month class change quest if you didn't want to). This was way more fun than retail and more crowded. You had sieges full of people not getting 1-2 shotted, everyone making groups to level in effective places, and people making large clans to help each other out. I am also a firm believer that the more time a player puts into a character, the stronger it should be. If botting and cheaters are kept under control (explained on the last suggestion) then this can be put into play.

My solution: Keep the grind heavy, but also allow for repeatable and non-repeatable quests to help for each level.
#1 don't make the leveling-by-questing like WoW where you can do 4/2539 of level 4 quests to reach level 5. Keep the quests minimal and repetitive forcing a player to grind+benifits(exp/items/money from quest) for both solo and group areas(obviously higher rewards for group areas).

Loosing exp(De-Level)/items upon death: Keep this system.
L2 used to allow you to loose items if you died to a monster, but took that away sometime around c3/c4 (disappointing). Also, as you leveled past 75 you no longer lost 4% exp. My toon is level 85 and if he dies he looses 0.02% with an 80% rez (free) of which can be got back in about 30 seconds. If it's a wartag that kills me I loose 0.01% just for going to clan hall (thanks to clan luck level 2).

My solution:
#1 Players do not loose items/gear/gold to other players unless they are red. Instead they only loose it to monsters/bosses.
#2 This is an effective deterrent for afk-botters and farmers. I used to pull trains in l2 to botters and farmers to get the loots. If I was leveling and someone tried to train me I'd just step aside and move to the safe zone until they left. If they didn't leave, call clan members for the wonderful pvp or move on.
#3 This will allow people to question and test whether they should be leveling at that area or if it is too hard and wait a bit.

All items/gear can be crafted, traded and over-enchanted: Keep this system with a few things added.
One thing I liked about l2 is that you could work hard for that sword or boots and be able to sell it if you want to. I also liked how you could make the weapons a much cooler glow as the enchanting got higher. Another thing I liked was you can put an ability on the weapon to help your class, but this ability required crystals which were obtained from raid bosses. I liked how it took months to gather the mats needed to craft that 1 piece of armor or weapon. I liked how a whole piece of weapon/armor/jewelry would have a 1/2000 chance of dropping off a mob or a 1/50ish chance off a raid boss. There were only 2 things I didn't like about the system:
#1 You either had to be a dwarf to craft end game gear, or buy it from a player who got it from a dwarf.
#2 if your enchantment failed, your weapon broke and you would be left with using your fists against level 7x mobs if you didn't have a weapon to replace the one you broke.

My solution:
#1 Allow crafting as a secondary skill by all classes. This will allow a class to craft any weapon/armor/jewelry they have the recipee/scroll (whatever you want to call it) for. The also should not be craft specific, this will allow players to craft gear for their friends or to sell it on the market.
#2 keep the "need this quantity of mats to craft" system. It forces the player to explore the land for different mats from monsters thus getting to know the game better.
#3 if enchanting the weapon fails, the weapon should go to +0. Safe enchantments stay at +3 or +5. Do not make special scrolls to make enchantments only go down 1 level or you will have everyone running around with +100 weapons 1shotting players and bosses. This enchantment system will allow for a player to constantly work towards improving gear as they reach end game level.
#4 Allow an auction-house (linked to every in-game auction house) to sell any item/gear. This will allow players to see how much items are really worth and reduce the chance of people being able to scam other newbies.
#5 Keep the ability option for the weapon without soul-binding it to make the weapon unique.
#6 Keep the glow effect for a weapon enchanting higher.
#7 Allow the user to take the weapon/armor to a shop to change the color of the armor/weapon (this keeps from every character looking the same).

No instances (well the real L2 had no instances): This was great. It kept everyone on their toes and allowed every person to be accounted for their actions by the community.

My solution:
#1 You can make high level bosses really hard to get to by putting really hard monsters that you need oh say (100+ groups of players) to kill. This will help prevent other clans from porting in to screw the raid up within the second. Instead the enemy clan will have to say "this clan going to do this raid, lets gather up and go in after them". The other clan can place a spy at the port in entrance and say "enemy clan is coming, lets kill them before we take on the raid boss, or soe out."
#2 No instance leveling or bosses.

Heroes: Stay away from this system.
This imo, is one of the reason why l2 servers became so 1-sided. You had everyone working together on the server to go into 1 clan and lock down olympiad to get a clan full of all the heroes. The reason for this is because hero skills/weapons gave a massive advantage in winning pvp in clan fights, thus enabled 1 clan to dominate an entire server. IMO there should always be at least 3 power-houses fighting for balance.

My solution:
stay away from anything that gives a single clan massive advantages over anyone else in the server. If you are going to implement something such as the hero system, make sure you limit how many heroes a clan can have (say like 4/40 heroes per clan).

Enchanting skills and no skill tree: I prefer this system.
It allows the player to feel limitless on the skills they get and gamble for the chance on increasing the power of the skills. It's a good added risk vs reward system

My solution:
#1 Keep the exp/sp system that L2 had to learn skills.
#2 Don't put a cap on enchanting skills, but don't allow items to get skills to stay the same level if they fail. Like gear if the enchant fails then it should go back to zero. Enchants should be kept at costing a certain amount of money+skillpoints (depending on the skill level).

Sieges+Territory wards: Good events to help keep the game alive.
I liked how clans could own a castle for 2 weeks and set a tax rate (with of course a cap of 15%) and collect taxes purchased from npc stores. I liked territory wars and how you could buy a certain amount of rare items once you got enough points (also liked how a different currency is used). I did not like how owning a ward made that 1 clan stronger than anyone else in the server by giving them +1 stat point.

My solution:
#1 Sieges should be kept where during the siege times, no player can loose anything upon death from another player (as long as the clan is signed to attack/defend within that castle zone, this will keep 1 clan from having 7 alt clans to own all the castles).
#2 No implementation of only 1 clan can own this power per server.
#3 A clan owning castles is okay as long as there are multiple of them and only 1 clan can own 1 castle.

Last and most important bots/farmers/scammers: They must be under constant monitor by live GM's.
L2 had the worst customer support for any game I have ever played, which is the main reason I will never play another game by them. I have learned they are in it for the money and not for the players. This is probably the #1 reason why the game died and there is more to read about it here:
L2Blah - L2Guru
*Note* you have to create an account to view this thread... it's free.

My solution:
#1 First offense of farmer/botter/scammer is perma-ban no exceptions
#2 One thing I liked about Blizzard is anytime I reported a botter/farmer/scammer, I instantly got a response from a live gm within 5 minutes and the issue was resolved. Please learn from this.
#3 Scamming should be a cause for ban because I have seen/known hundreds of good players who have quit because they got scammed. Granted if the player lets someone borrow they're gear, then they do so at their own risk. I'm talking about name-look-alike scams (people who create level 1 toons for the soul purpose of scamming), or people multiple trading and putting a +0 weapon in the last trade instead of a +10 or whatever to make the player overlook it.
#4 I don't want to see any players with a sign over their head or shouting "buy gold from this website." If this happens the account should be banned within no more than 1 minute. If accounts are not free then farmers will not exploit this.
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There were a few replies to this I liked:
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Welcome Mr.Dwarf.

Overall I enjoyed your post. I agree with you 100% on NC Soft and your desire for a hard-core pvp game. Unfortunately it seems the world overall disagrees. Even L2 has changed to where the xp loss upon death is completely meaningless.

Every MMO producer is looking at dollars and popularity. I can't blame them as they are businesses. The challenge is, hard core pvp and death penalties seems to be a niche which no one is willing to support. Your suggestion of requiring two hours to grind back the xp loss from a single death realistically means players wont pvp.

I remember the great sieges of L2 where very active players would cheer on Wednesday or Thursday of the following week because they had just earned back enough xp to restore their siege xp loss. These were players who grinded for many hours each day. Those were some great times.

Anyway, Tera is not going to be the hardcore game you desire, and I have looked closely at the competing games such as GW2 (NC Soft which I don't want to consider playing), Blade & Soul, C9 and a couple others. None of them have the system we desire, and even if a brand new "legit" L2 server was to open tomorrow, there is not any real xp loss on death.
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And if you do you will quickly realize that the time of the "legendary true-hardcore MMO games of old" is over.
Stop striving for another L2, you will most likely not get it in your lifetime, and i dare to say that in a few years (ymmv) you will not want it anymore. The reason is explained here: What it's like to play online games as a grownup - The Oatmeal.

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Originally posted by Enowa

I pose this question for a couple of reasons. I know to grind levels most games you have to fight. Yet most games I have played the rp has gone away on mmo's hence then new title. What happen to all things non combat to do,and to become a professional in. Do games like these still exist? I do not pvp nor enjoy raiding. Should i just follow my gut instincts n just walk away from the hole genre?

Well you have to be careful when mentioning NON COMBAT,because almost EVERYTHING is related to combat.

As to the question of a real MMORPG,NONE exist,even a game i once proclaimed as the ultimate MMORPG [FFXI] is no longer the same game.Now EVERY single game is a clone,you either follow the speed leveling or do pvp.

You need to first remember where the RPG genre started >>>DnD.It was all about combat.Along the way games have found ways to add some new systems to add a form of realism to the game world,something Dnd could not do.SO although the title of the genre suggests you could role play anything,it really is a genre designed around combat.

It is basically like saying you want to role play a hockey player but don't want to be a centre/defense or goaltender.

I believe what the OP really means is "Where is the DEPTH" in game design.You wants lots of options to roleplay your combat player.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by Enowa

I pose this question for a couple of reasons. I know to grind levels most games you have to fight. Yet most games I have played the rp has gone away on mmo's hence then new title. What happen to all things non combat to do,and to become a professional in. Do games like these still exist? I do not pvp nor enjoy raiding. Should i just follow my gut instincts n just walk away from the hole genre?

Well you have to be careful when mentioning NON COMBAT,because almost EVERYTHING is related to combat.

As to the question of a real MMORPG,NONE exist,even a game i once proclaimed as the ultimate MMORPG [FFXI] is no longer the same game.Now EVERY single game is a clone,you either follow the speed leveling or do pvp.

You need to first remember where the RPG genre started >>>DnD.It was all about combat.Along the way games have found ways to add some new systems to add a form of realism to the game world,something Dnd could not do.SO although the title of the genre suggests you could role play anything,it really is a genre designed around combat.

It is basically like saying you want to role play a hockey player but don't want to be a centre/defense or goaltender.

I believe what the OP really means is "Where is the DEPTH" in game design.You wants lots of options to roleplay your combat player.

LOl- D&D was NOT "all about combat" not is it really where RPG's started-

That aside , games like "Chainmail" (i.e. Wargames) were all about combat- D & D was an offshoot of Chainmail- Find some older (or even newer) modules and read them. manu of the old adventures were far more "mysteries" and "storytelling" than "combat combat combat".

But yes, there was combat in D&D. =P

EFIT: D&D was about ROLE PLAYING not ROLL PLAYING- Combat centric games were reversed and were about ROLL PLAYING. LOL. many, many people often purpousfully "gimp" their characters or give them traits which make them more diffiicult to ROLE PLAY- As playing "make believe" with rules is what D&D is/was about.

Go play UO (if you don't mind older graphics) and find a good role playing guild. Join the Atlantic shard it is the most populated I know for a fact that it has some decent role playing if you look for it. PVP is all optional in UO now and they have champ spawns in the place of raid bosses but again they are optional.

Heck if you decide to play UO send me a PM and I'll spot a little gold to get you started.

Vendetta Online

(The link explains why I think VO has great RP potential, and showcases a video highlighting some combat that has influenced events in the galaxy since the time it was filmed).

Originally posted by eGumball

UO, EvE etc. However, the only, new title, offering a kinda of a sandboxy experience is Guild Wars 2. Don´t get me wrong, the game is a theme-park however, you can really find many sandboxy aspects in this game, such as open world where you can do whatever you want and where you have the choice to head to the path you enjoy.

Otherwise, most MMORPGs are combat based.

 Guild Wars 2 is prob the main reason the OP started this thread in the first place.....

Originally posted by Enowa

I pose this question for a couple of reasons. I know to grind levels most games you have to fight. Yet most games I have played the rp has gone away on mmo's hence then new title. What happen to all things non combat to do,and to become a professional in. Do games like these still exist? I do not pvp nor enjoy raiding. Should i just follow my gut instincts n just walk away from the hole genre?

Here's part of the problem.

You're confusing an actual term 'mmorpg', with your own personal preference.

I also prefer games with a strong, non-combat oriented aspect to them, but this has nothing to do with whether or not a game is actually an MMORPG.

MMORPGs consist of 2 main aspects:

The MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online)

& the RPG (Role playing game)

Games are clearly still MMOs, and have been growing over time to a certain degree, so lets take a look at the RPG aspects. You complain that there are only combat aspects to really do. Well, when's the last time you looked at the single-player RPG genre? Would you say that Mass Effect 2 isn't an RPG, just because it's basically all combat & story? I wouldn't think so. What about Zelda? Or Chrono Trigger?

Combat, or the lack-thereof, have absolutely nothing to do w/ what makes a game an RPG. It's all about having some kind of story or lore element that is the primary focus of the game. MMORPGs haven't lost that, and it's only gotten stronger.

Originally posted by Wrender

Originally posted by eGumball

UO, EvE etc. However, the only, new title, offering a kinda of a sandboxy experience is Guild Wars 2. Don´t get me wrong, the game is a theme-park however, you can really find many sandboxy aspects in this game, such as open world where you can do whatever you want and where you have the choice to head to the path you enjoy.

Otherwise, most MMORPGs are combat based.

 Guild Wars 2 is prob the main reason the OP started this thread in the first place.....

Which would be ironic, since it has a lot of non-combat oriented features. It's just that most people overlook them, or write them off as 'not important enough'.

you can play EVE as a diplomat.

no, not som class called a diplomat. literarly a guy managing conflicts within an alliance of players or between alliances.

that's RP. that's non-combat. that's a specialization.

People who say there's RPG in the current MMOs haven't experienced T2A/Renaissaince era UO Europa shard.

Originally posted by Azarith
Maybe look into Age of Wushu, sure the translation is a work in progress and it has an odd learning curve, but there is a lot to do in the game.

you didn't read past the title, did you ?

Originally posted by Enowa

I pose this question for a couple of reasons. I know to grind levels most games you have to fight. Yet most games I have played the rp has gone away on mmo's hence then new title. What happen to all things non combat to do,and to become a professional in. Do games like these still exist? I do not pvp nor enjoy raiding. Should i just follow my gut instincts n just walk away from the hole genre?

http://www.hellokittyonline.com/

  There you go brother, roleplay to your hearts content  :)

Originally posted by wes4mu089
Archeage, my friend. That is the answer to all our fading dreams.

I haven't enjoyed a single game out of the East yet. They've always managed to screw it up by skimping on content by substituting in an absurd amount of "grind 10,000 enemies to progress" and basically making all crafting systems/pvp combat based on RNG and gear. 

Vanguard. You can level adventuring, crafting and diplomacy.

Originally posted by Enowa

I pose this question for a couple of reasons. I know to grind levels most games you have to fight. Yet most games I have played the rp has gone away on mmo's hence then new title. What happen to all things non combat to do,and to become a professional in. Do games like these still exist? I do not pvp nor enjoy raiding. Should i just follow my gut instincts n just walk away from the hole genre?

You should not walk away from the genre.  You should not expect to see what you're looking for in a top-tier game title.

MUDs have much of what you're looking for, but of course, we're talking about tens or maybe hundreds of people online at once, rather than thousands.  However, you'll get a rich RP experience.  There are also several graphical multiplayer online role-playing games that will provide the kind of gameplay that you want, with low production values to be sure.

What you're describing is very niche, and no company is going to sink a lot of time and money into high production values for that type of game.  Like I said, there are some good MUDs and graphical games like RPG MO and such.