Originally posted by grimal

Posts like this should not be permitted as it was only intended to start a flame war.  SInce when was this a boxing match?

 

Personally, I played TOR for 6 months.  I enjoyed it and still continue to enjoy it.  I played RIFT at release and was bored after a few weeks.  I played a bunch of other games you list in your credits.  Some you list for playing years where I could only play a week or two bcause I couldn't stomach them. 

The difference is I don't come to these forums and create whiny posts about how this game beat that game.  So please, either get some maturity or dont bother posting stuff like this because we don't care.

Please, if you are so hurt that TOR didnt meet your epectations, go talk to a shrink or something.  Threadslike this deserve to be deleted.

 He has a point though outside the silly remark he made that you quoted. The SWTOR fanboys were rather relentless in forums for other games remarking how they were going to go up in flames once SWTOR launched. So can't say I blame some for relishing in the fact that things aren't playing out as many foretold. Lord knows they had to deal with it long enough. Just desserts really...

...and there is an argument to be said about the two games least to me.

what would be really interesting is how many people will go to rift if it does go f2p,i'm not saying it will anytime soon .but with most games going that route it would be interesting to find out.

i think swtor if it adopts a full f2p model it will do extremely well..has long as EA dont try to be to greedy-yeah right.

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

Trion created an endgame that wouldn't be completely devoured in two weeks.

 

Posts like this should not be permitted as it was only intended to start a flame war.  SInce when was this a boxing match?

 .

Why because its true? 

No.

Listen, I don't mean to be offensive either, but I am sensing you are probably very young judging by your membership date and the maturity level of your posts.  But when you get a bit older, you will realize the world isnt so black and white.  Maybe some day you will understand how posts like these just seem like the cries of a child

I'm done.  If you don't undertand that, ask your teacher to help you

Originally posted by Z3R01
SWTOR is bleeding subs faster and has merged servers faster and contemplated F2p faster than any AAA mmo to ever release. <--- Facts

^that line in red is the reason RIFT Beat SWTOR. Concurrent user data means jack atm.

Originally posted by kevjards

what would be really interesting is how many people will go to rift if it does go f2p,i'm not saying it will anytime soon .but with most games going that route it would be interesting to find out.

i think swtor if it adopts a full f2p model it will do extremely well..has long as EA dont try to be to greedy-yeah right.

 It would be interesting. I think both games would do extremely well if they adopted a f2p model. Assuming as you said they aren't greedy.

...or high on bath salts as apparently SOE was when they created their f2p design for EQ2

I disagree with the OP.

I tink Trions success comes from a clear understanding of who they're trying to attract to the game, and a focus on appealing to that group.

They don't try and sugarcoat the fact that the game is very much the same kind of game as WoW, that's what they intended.  The playerbase they were aiming for was that segment of WoW players, who liked WoW gameplay, but don't like waiting around for Blizzard to release new content.

So Trion made a game exactly like WoW and put a focus on releasing new content quickly.  That's their success.  They aren't jaded about the game they make or the playerbase they're trying to appeal to.

BW tried to pitch the game as something else, with an ephasis on a single player story in an MMO.  BW doesn't seem to have a clear idea who they're making the game for.  It's an MMO so it can't just be about Star Wars fans.  From everything I've heard it's really no different then WoW, but they tried to bill it as different.  It's an MMO but they ephasized a single player game element.  Fully voiced storylines take time and money to produce, so you're not going to get lots of new content fast.

If BW had gone the KoTOR mmo route, but scalled down slightly to be more MMO lite, under a B2P model, with future content in the form of storyline advancement already developed and held back to release as DLC, the game would probably be a raging success right now. 

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

 He has a point though outside the silly remark he made that you quoted. The SWTOR fanboys were rather relentless in forums for other games remarking how they were going to go up in flames once SWTOR launched. So can't say I blame some for relishing in the fact that things aren't playing out as many foretold. Lord knows they had to deal with it long enough. Just desserts really...

...and there is an argument to be said about the two games least to me.

So my advice is to redirect this whole thread into an email to those specific fanboys.  I myself am not one of them and tire of seeing crap threads like this.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

 He has a point though outside the silly remark he made that you quoted. The SWTOR fanboys were rather relentless in forums for other games remarking how they were going to go up in flames once SWTOR launched. So can't say I blame some for relishing in the fact that things aren't playing out as many foretold. Lord knows they had to deal with it long enough. Just desserts really...

...and there is an argument to be said about the two games least to me.

So my advice is to redirect this whole thread into an email to those specific fanboys.  I myself am not one of them and tire of seeing crap threads like this.

 Welcome to MMORPG.com.  You've been here long enough, you should know this is par for the course.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by grimal

Posts like this should not be permitted as it was only intended to start a flame war.  SInce when was this a boxing match?

 

Personally, I played TOR for 6 months.  I enjoyed it and still continue to enjoy it.  I played RIFT at release and was bored after a few weeks.  I played a bunch of other games you list in your credits.  Some you list for playing years where I could only play a week or two bcause I couldn't stomach them. 

The difference is I don't come to these forums and create whiny posts about how this game beat that game.  So please, either get some maturity or dont bother posting stuff like this because we don't care.

Please, if you are so hurt that TOR didnt meet your epectations, go talk to a shrink or something.  Threadslike this deserve to be deleted.

 He has a point though outside the silly remark he made that you quoted. The SWTOR fanboys were rather relentless in forums for other games remarking how they were going to go up in flames once SWTOR launched. So can't say I blame some for relishing in the fact that things aren't playing out as many foretold. Lord knows they had to deal with it long enough. Just desserts really.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

 He has a point though outside the silly remark he made that you quoted. The SWTOR fanboys were rather relentless in forums for other games remarking how they were going to go up in flames once SWTOR launched. So can't say I blame some for relishing in the fact that things aren't playing out as many foretold. Lord knows they had to deal with it long enough. Just desserts really...

...and there is an argument to be said about the two games least to me.

So my advice is to redirect this whole thread into an email to those specific fanboys.  I myself am not one of them and tire of seeing crap threads like this.

 /shrug

Then don't bother with it. Just because you are doesn't mean others are.

Originally posted by smh_alot

 

Sorry, but from what I see I think that GW2 fanbois are doing that far, far more intensely and in all the game threads here, bashing other games and how GW2 is king and will beat all other games and all that kind of childish epeening.

 No argument there. Worst group i have seen in quite some time. It does seem like the game may very well live up to the hype. Doesn't mean they aren't beyond annoying in their douchebaggery.

Lol.. Rift vs. SWTOR..  This is like Glass Joe vs Von Kaiser..

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by Z3R01
SWTOR is bleeding subs faster and has merged servers faster and contemplated F2p faster than any AAA mmo to ever release. <--- Facts

 

^that line in red is the reason RIFT Beat SWTOR. Concurrent user data means jack atm.

 

Well, as other posts in this thread have already shown, what you stated is untrue and so means jack s**t bc of it. TOR is definitely not the one that bled subs the fastest, in fact it's close to how many subs Rift lost in percentage during their 6-7 months after launch - oh, and if you claim that concurrent user data and Xfire and Steam and Raptr mean shit, then at least come with reliable sub facts about your claim, otherwise they mean even less than jack and outright lies, just saying. Also, Rift started their server transfers and server merges - oh, sorry, their 'trial server' designations - like 4 months or so after its launch.

 

So yeah, sounds to me like some Rift history rewriting and whitewashing.

Well I don't know what numbers you're looking at for Rift but according to Mmodata.net Rift peaked around 600k subs and still showed close to 250k in early 2012.So it looks to me like they're retaining better than 40% and many people believe TOR is at 500k-600k right now or will be very quickly.So I'd say TOR has bled far more and far quicker then Rift.

Originally posted by Berikai

Well I don't know what numbers you're looking at for Rift but according to Mmodata.net Rift peaked around 600k subs and still showed close to 250k in early 2012.So it looks to me like they're retaining better than 40% and many people believe TOR is at 500k-600k right now or will be very quickly.So I'd say TOR has bled far more and far quicker then Rift.

 Yeah but it is all assumptions and guesstimates at this point. No real way to say for sure. I personally think they're both at about the same retention but I question where SWTOR will finally plateau.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

 He has a point though outside the silly remark he made that you quoted. The SWTOR fanboys were rather relentless in forums for other games remarking how they were going to go up in flames once SWTOR launched. So can't say I blame some for relishing in the fact that things aren't playing out as many foretold. Lord knows they had to deal with it long enough. Just desserts really...

...and there is an argument to be said about the two games least to me.

So my advice is to redirect this whole thread into an email to those specific fanboys.  I myself am not one of them and tire of seeing crap threads like this.

 /shrug

Then don't bother with it. Just because you are doesn't mean others are.

I don't get people on this site. 

If you don't like a thread, Ignore it. I posted this for fun, I dont play Rift, I certainly dont play SWTOR I was interested in reading the responses of my fellow mmorpg.com community members.

I never asked people to participate, you can easily ignore the thread and me if you want. 

Hell I Ignore people and threads all the time. This site is meant for entertainment. People need to relax.

Uggh I quoted Wicked, I meant that for Grimal.

Originally posted by Berikai

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by Z3R01
SWTOR is bleeding subs faster and has merged servers faster and contemplated F2p faster than any AAA mmo to ever release. <--- Facts

 

^that line in red is the reason RIFT Beat SWTOR. Concurrent user data means jack atm.

 

Well, as other posts in this thread have already shown, what you stated is untrue and so means jack s**t bc of it. TOR is definitely not the one that bled subs the fastest, in fact it's close to how many subs Rift lost in percentage during their 6-7 months after launch - oh, and if you claim that concurrent user data and Xfire and Steam and Raptr mean shit, then at least come with reliable sub facts about your claim, otherwise they mean even less than jack and outright lies, just saying. Also, Rift started their server transfers and server merges - oh, sorry, their 'trial server' designations - like 4 months or so after its launch.

 

So yeah, sounds to me like some Rift history rewriting and whitewashing.

Well I don't know what numbers you're looking at for Rift but according to Mmodata.net Rift peaked around 600k subs and still showed close to 250k in early 2012.So it looks to me like they're retaining better than 40% and many people believe TOR is at 500k-600k right now or will be very quickly.So I'd say TOR has bled far more and far quicker then Rift.

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

This is why its important to release a game when its done. In the MMO market you will be competeing with games that have 5+ years of endgame content and polish. 

I know it isnt fair to expect a new game to have that much content at launch but the harsh reality is that it matters and players will leave your game if you dont offer as much as their old game.

I never said Rift was a success, I only pointed out that its doing better and the only reason its doing better is due to its endgame.

Believe me I know it has problems, Rift is anything but perfect.

But how much is "enough"?

Saying "it has to release finished" sounds wonderful. But then you have to quantify what "finished" is.

Saying "it has to have enough content" is entirely too vague. How much is "enough"? And to whom? Who's the arbiter of that?

Just using end-game stuff as an example...

Is it 3 end game raids at launch? 5? 8? 16?

Is it arena PvP? How many Arenas? How many rewards/ranks/etc?

And so on... You can extrapolate that to every single game system that could possibly be implemented in a MMO.

It's like someone asking you to cut them some cold cuts. "How much you want?" you ask. "Enough", they reply. Not a very helpful answer, is it?

How long can a MMO be expected to stay in development, sucking up invested money without any return, before even a majority players say "Okay, it's finished"? Of course, full knowing that if they take "too long" (which means "longer than the impatient masses think it should take"), then the game gets slammed as "vaporware" and "failed before it's even launched".

When it takes players a few days to a week (maybe) to finish a single dungeon that took the developers/designers months to create, design, implement and so forth... how much can players really expect to get out of that?

I think it's unfair to say "well they're competing with 5 year-old MMOs, so they have to release in a more finished state".

That's a ridiculous argument to make as the rebuttal to it is right in the statement. There is now way a just releasing MMO can ever match the content of one that's been released for 5 years. It can't happen. An argument like that is indicative of the wildly unrealistic expectations of players who seem to think developing new and unique content for any game, nevermind a MMO, is some kind of trivial task that takes a few weeks to do or something.

Developers can work themselves 'til their fingers bleed and their hair is falling out trying to hit that mythical "finished game at release", because for players who chew through it as quickly as today's impatient gamer typically does... it'll never be enough.

The attempts to meet that "challenge" of satisfying the "finished game" expectation has typically led to shoddy, half-baked gameplay mechanics or extremely derivative and highly repetitive content that people sick of doing anyway.

The best a MMO developer can do is to make things slower-paced, putting more gated in place to slow people down in a means that they can't control. But of course, we all have seen what happens when developers do that.. The gamers aren't happy with that either.

I say it's the players who need to get themselves off this pedestal so many have themselves on. They want their cake, served up on a silver platter. They want it when they want it, how they want it, and they want to eat it with the finest silverware the developer can supply. And if the developer's lucky, the players might give a nod and say "Well that was decent.. but there's no reason why the developer couldn't give me a lot more". But most likely, they'd complain that the developer did a shoddy job, the cake wasn't fluffy enough, it wasn't made exactly the way they wanted it, and it took them 10 seconds longer to serve it than it should have, and therefor the developers are "fail" and don't deserve to have jobs.

The problem is Players are never freaking happy with anything. They're self-entitled, spoiled-rotten and, in many cases, have completely unrealistic expectations which could never be met by anyone.

The sad truth is many gamers these days are impatient, unrealistic, self-important and self-entitled assholes who want everything 1000% on their terms and, woe to the developer who doesn't come through.

SWTOR may be in trouble, but Rift certainly didn't "beat" it.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

This is why its important to release a game when its done. In the MMO market you will be competeing with games that have 5+ years of endgame content and polish. 

I know it isnt fair to expect a new game to have that much content at launch but the harsh reality is that it matters and players will leave your game if you dont offer as much as their old game.

I never said Rift was a success, I only pointed out that its doing better and the only reason its doing better is due to its endgame.

Believe me I know it has problems, Rift is anything but perfect.

But how much is "enough"?

Just using end-game stuff as an example...

Is it 3 end game raids at launch? 5? 8? 16?

Is it arena PvP? How many Arenas? How many rewards/ranks/etc?

And so on...

How long can a MMO be expected to stay in development, sucking up invested money without any return, before even a majority players say "Okay, it's finished".

When it takes players a few days to a week (maybe) to finish a single dungeon that took the developers/designers months to create, design, implement and so forth... how much can players really expect to get out of that?

I think it's unfair to say "well they're competing with 5 year-old MMOs, so they have to release in a more finished state".

That's a ridiculous argument to make as the rebuttal to it is right in the statement. There is now way a just releasing MMO can ever match the content of one that's been released for 5 years. It can't happen. What an argument like that is indicative of is wildly unrealistic expectations of players who seem to think developing new and unique content for any game, nevermind a MMO, is some kind of trivial task that takes a few weeks to do or something.

Developers can work themselves 'til their fingers bleed and their hair is falling out trying to hit that mythical "finished game at release", because for players who chew through it as quickly as today's impatient gamer typically does... it'll never be enough.

The attempts to meet that "challenge" of satisfying the "finished game" expectation has typically led to shoddy, half-baked gameplay mechanics or extremely derivative and highly repetitive content that people sick of doing anyway.

The best a MMO developer can do is to make things slower-paced, putting more gated in place to slow people down in a means that they can't control. But of course, we all have seen what happens when developers do that.. The gamers aren't happy with that either.

I say it's the players who need to get themselves off this pedestal so many have themselves on. They want their cake, served up on a silver platter. They want it when they want it, how they want it, and they want to eat it with the finest silverware the developer can supply. And if the developer's lucky, the players might give a nod and say "Well that was decent.. but there's no reason why the developer couldn't give me a lot more". But most likely, they'd complain that the developer did a shoddy job, the cake wasn't fluffy enough, it wasn't made exactly the way they wanted it, and it took them 10 seconds longer to serve it than it should have, and therefor the developers are "fail" and don't deserve to have jobs.

The problem is Players are never freaking happy with anything. They're self-entitled, spoiled-rotten and, in many cases, have completely unrealistic expectations which could never be met by anyone.

 

I agree with a lot of with your saying but the sad truth is these games ask players to pay a subscription fee. last I check a good amount of the mmo community can't sub to every new game. 

in this genre, with the P2p model you are in direct competition with all P2p games even if they are 5+ years old.

If you dont offer more content, better gameplay and new mechanics people will just stay with their current subscribed game. its like Cable services. 

This imo is why I feel the subscription model needs to be tossed in the trash. because it is impossible to compete with something like WoW when all of these games require a Sub. Now if they were all B2p or F2p? 

maybe they would have a shot. 

Anyway thats a topic for another thread, But I would like to thank you for your post.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

I say it's the players who need to get themselves off this pedestal so many have themselves on. They want their cake, served up on a silver platter. They want it when they want it, how they want it, and they want to eat it with the finest silverware the developer can supply. And if the developer's lucky, the players might give a nod and say "Well that was decent.. but there's no reason why the developer couldn't give me a lot more". But most likely, they'd complain that the developer did a shoddy job, the cake wasn't fluffy enough, it wasn't made exactly the way they wanted it, and it took them 10 seconds longer to serve it than it should have, and therefor the developers are "fail" and don't deserve to have jobs.

The problem is Players are never freaking happy with anything. They're self-entitled, spoiled-rotten and, in many cases, have completely unrealistic expectations which could never be met by anyone.

 

 I don't agree with this at all, and frankly I'm really getting tired of this new fad of blame the players for everything.

These games are failing or not living up to their expectations because of their design. Pure and simple. It will continue to happen with those that overlook building a community, discount PvP or PvE, & simply try recycling gameplay/designs from other games.