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Originally posted by keinohr

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Originally posted by Grixxitt Rift beat SWTOR by being PROFITABLE This. EA has different expectations than Trion. And i don't think that Rift has more than 500k - 1 mio. subscribers.

 

Furthermore it's much easier for Trion to deliver updates/content patches more frequently because the overall package of the initial game was weak compared to other p2p mmorpgs. MMO.Maverick measured the mmo worlds and came to a shocking conclusion: Originally posted by MMO.Maverick Alright, I did some more testing in Rift, and this is what I came up with:   run speed: 10.8 m/h For this I used the distance feature ingame where it states how far you are from a location. I ran for 30 seconds, and see what distance I'd traveled.   crossing distance: worldmap from north => south:  corrected to 25.5 min worldmap from east => west: corrected to 30.5 min I ran a certain distance in a straight line, checked how long it took, then compared the distance traveled on the worldmap to the overall size of the world.   The run speed and crossing distance led to the following size for the world in miles: worldmap from north => south: corrected to 4.6 miles worldmap from east => west: corrected to 5.5 miles   I admit, the final result was a surprise, based on earlier tests I'd thought the world of Rift to be as large as 1 WoW continent or maybe somewhat smaller, but that was before I took the run speed difference into account. Based on the figures above this is how the actual comparison would look like, when you'd put Rift's regions next to WoW's Kalimdor (I picked Kalimdor, because  most people are familiar with the general feel and size of it)   edit: I replaced it with the new picture that's more accurate:

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http://www.morpg.com/mobile/forums.cfm?ismb=1&threadId=306052

 

I'm not saying that's a bad strategy because Trion Worlds has some decent success. There's even an Interview with Lars Butler about it:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/171894/Trions_Lars_Buttler_discusses_what_went_wrong_with_38_Studios_Star_Wars__.php

 

He maybe sounds arrogant because Trion also tried to rival WoW and "failed".

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My only gripe with those comparsions is the lack of comparsion between accessability on those "landscapes" (Zones with fixed (portal or seamless transition valleys).

To be fair rift offers more freedom when you want to cross a zone, you can climb multiple hills and that way even go faster through zones. At least till you consider flying mounts in WOW and that is when zones seem less like zones but like a connected world.

When dragging SWTOR into this, swtor appears to have large zones like hoth but in reality your accessability is so low and everything is a narrow railroad that even by a far stretch i'd have to say swtors "world" barely matches Rifts.

And they all have hold nothing to a World like Lineage1 and 2. :D

I think Rift will end up making Trion a profit, and I think SW:TOR will make EA a profit.  It probably already has (made a small one).   Certainly not as big as they hoped, but money nonetheless.

The fact is, I preferred SW:TOR (though I don't play it or Rift anymore) because at least it had a semblance of soul.  Trion had the most boring lore, boring quests, and boring world design in MMOs with no landmarks, tiny cities with like 4 buildings in them, no feeling of an actual world and slow paced combat against single targets.  (at least SW:TOR had you fighting multiple mobs, which while hardly a big improvement, did help a bit).

At the end of the day, in my opinion Rift is an exercise in MMO-building.   Like they statistically and mechanically build an improved version of WoW and continue making updates for it (at a good pace).   It has no soul, no love in it, and it doesn't feel like a virtual world I want to inhabit.

Thank you for reading ma rant.

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

Trion created an endgame that wouldn't be completely devoured in two weeks.

 

Your title should have been:  "How SWTOR failed by design"

and your one liner would have been: "From the ground up there is nothing Massively Multiplayer about the game."

Originally posted by skydiver12

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My only gripe with those comparsions is the lack of comparsion between accessability on those "landscapes" (Zones with fixed (portal or seamless transition valleys).

To be fair rift offers more freedom when you want to cross a zone, you can climb multiple hills and that way even go faster through zones. At least till you consider flying mounts in WOW and that is when zones seem less like zones but like a connected world.

When dragging SWTOR into this, swtor appears to have large zones like hoth but in reality your accessability is so low and everything is a narrow railroad that even by a far stretch i'd have to say swtors "world" barely matches Rifts.

And they all have hold nothing to a World like Lineage1 and 2. :D

 

offtopic but if sheer world size made for a good game, Vanguard would have 5 times the populatioon of WoW. That was the biggest world I ever saw, but 99% of it was void of content. Worls size doews not matter unless there is something intersting to find or do in the area provided

Originally posted by Z3R01

This is my last post on this topic. ive done what i wanted to do. made a simple topic post thats freaking obvious to anyone that takes part in this great genre of ours.

There's no debate, the server merges happened, EA has gone on record saying they are refocasing and now Bioware is talking Free to play.

To the above quoted poster. Rift going from 90 servers to 40 is much smaller percentage than Swtor going from 250 to 30.

I know my server numbers are a tad off but the percentage is in Rifts favor by a wide margin. 

 

I would also like to point out that many here said SWTOR would cause Rift to go F2p... I guess they were wrong.

 

Rift: Small budget and unknown intellectually property which they turned into a modestly profitable and very well ran game.

SWTOR: Huge budget and the best intellectual property in the world which they turned into a disapointing and badly managed game of which they give LucasArts around 35% of the revenue.

My impression is Rift was built by gamers that love MMOs and SWTOR was built by spreadsheets and accountants.

Originally posted by TheCrow2k

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

Trion created an endgame that wouldn't be completely devoured in two weeks.

 

 

Your title should have been:  "How SWTOR failed by design"

 

and your one liner would have been: "There was nothing Massively Multiplayer about the game."

now that I would agree with. I do raids every Friday but other than that I solo and chat in Vent with my guildies while they are soloing. If one of us runs into a non soloable quest the rest help him or her out but I would say 90% plus of the time I am just following the story line

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

Trion created an endgame that wouldn't be completely devoured in two weeks.

 

That and the fact that they earn their monthly sub with the fastest content patches and bug fixes I have ever seen in the industry.  That alone makes them beat just about every game out there, to be honest.  

 Really is amazing how much they have added to the game content wise compared to other mmos. Incredibly impressive and doesn't say much for many of the other companies out there.

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Jackdog

judt looked at the XFire numbers, Rift is 71st, SWOTOR is #11. Looks like a lor of people disagree with the OP. RIFT does not even have 1000 user hours per day , even DC Universe Online beats RIFT

Yep because Xfire is a requirement to Run MMOs.

Dude who the hell still uses Xfire? I swear you guys bring up that crappy program like its a good way to gage anything.

because it is a good way to gauge the general population of a game. Same as political polls. Does not matter whether you like it or not it works for a general assesment. You can also use Quantcast and Alexa to gauge website traffic. Rift was a flash in the pan, it  never grew legs

Dude who uses it? 

What does Xfire offer? Why should anyone keep it on? To tally their /played in a forum banner?

Im sorry but Xfires time has long passed, you show me something relevant like Steam activity or maybe even the amount of people using Vent that are logged into either game. Both would yield ten times the number that Xfire does.

Hell... if you could do it with Skype it would make for a more realistic number.

it does not matter who uses it, it simply matters that users in all MMO's use it. It is simply a relevant population indicator.

you want another indicator, go to Alexa or Quantcast and you can compare website traffic numbers.

Maybe, just maybe Rift players dont use Xfire... Like 99.9% of the actual mmo community.

"HAR HAR look at Xfire"

Give me a break please Bioware/EA just reduced SWTORs servers by more than 200!!!!!!!!

EA has gone on record saying they are focusing their efforts away from SWTOR!

Bioware staff have been fired over SWTOR failing dude!

HOWever, RIFT is revalant! Its still being developed for and has a new expansion on the way.

Trion hasn't fired anyone (hell they are making two more MMOs!) and the game has been steady when it comes to server merges for months now. 

Seriously who gives a crap about unreliable statistic sites like Xfire when you have all of that other info to go on?

 

 

what other info?  from what information and hard numbers that I see SWOTOR peaked in December, declined drastically from December 31st to January 31st then a more gradual slope through may and has leveled out. Rift had less than a third of the users at peak which was over a year ago, had a decline until january and has been steady ever since but with about 1/5 th the users

 

If you can find some hard numbers other than the website traffic and XFire number I am using then I would be happy to look at them

For what purpose?  Your whole position is based off of Xfire users which is flawed. 

See World of Tanks.

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

Trion created an endgame that wouldn't be completely devoured in two weeks.

 

Ummmm... River of Souls was beaten four hours after release and Greenscale barely took longer. The only interesting endgame Rift had at launch was T2s that actually took a decent group to finish and those were nerfed into the ground depressingly quickly.

What endgame Rift had at launch we absolutely did complete less than two weeks after hitting level cap (which, frankly, takes hardly any time at all in Rift).

Granted, they added content -- and, as often, bugs -- at a stunning pace, but the world was tiny and the endgame minute, they had no choice. If they hadn't added content fast -- and, as it was, a depressing amount of that was an endless parade of "events" that were nigh unto indistinguishable -- they would have lost even more of their playerbase than they did. Bragging about the pace at which they shove stuff out the door can't mask the fact that there was little there to begin with.

I played Rift for six months, but that was primarily because I ended up running a guild of people I really liked. If not for the guild I would have quit far sooner, and after most of the members had quit so did I. It's not a bad game, it's just that it's such a cookie-cutter copy of WoW that a lot of people just go back to WoW, which is where most of my old guild is.

Honestly ToR turned out to not be my cup of tea, but I moved on as I have with so many other MMOs. I don't really get the bizarre, almost clinical level of hate people have for it -- would somebody please show me on this doll where meanie ToR touched you? Nor the weird need to make statements like the OP. Rift didn't "beat" ToR, overall ToR is probably in better shape than Rift. Will that continue into the future? Time will tell, but all of these ToR is beat/dead threads carry about as much weight as all the "Rift will be FtP in three months" thread had six months after Rift's release.

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Originally posted by st3v3b0
The problem is not with SW:TOR's end game content in that it can easily be completed.  Hell WoW's content could easily be completed for years now and they still have a firm market share.  The problem is BioWare preached and preached and preached that they did not want their end game to be 8 or 16 people beating on a single boss.  What did we get?  8 or 16 people beating on a single boss with two puzzle bosses tossed into the mix.  

People had expectations of something "different" and they were let down.  That is why I canceled my account.

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Actually Wow 40 man raiding was frigin hard as hell the fact is that only like 3% of playerbase saw Naxx in Vanilla. Hell, getting 40 ppl with decent internet connections wasnt easy in 2005.

Swtors endgame was fucking PISS easy, there idea of "cool game mechanics" where enrage timers on 95% of the bosses, then when players started trying the really hard content Nightmare mode, it doned on everyone that it dropped nothing more than the hardmodes and was absolutly not worth time or energy to do content that gave you nothing more other than bigger Boss hppools and shorter enrage timers..

Originally posted by MMOGamer71

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Jackdog

judt looked at the XFire numbers, Rift is 71st, SWOTOR is #11. Looks like a lor of people disagree with the OP. RIFT does not even have 1000 user hours per day , even DC Universe Online beats RIFT

Yep because Xfire is a requirement to Run MMOs.

Dude who the hell still uses Xfire? I swear you guys bring up that crappy program like its a good way to gage anything.

because it is a good way to gauge the general population of a game. Same as political polls. Does not matter whether you like it or not it works for a general assesment. You can also use Quantcast and Alexa to gauge website traffic. Rift was a flash in the pan, it  never grew legs

Dude who uses it? 

What does Xfire offer? Why should anyone keep it on? To tally their /played in a forum banner?

Im sorry but Xfires time has long passed, you show me something relevant like Steam activity or maybe even the amount of people using Vent that are logged into either game. Both would yield ten times the number that Xfire does.

Hell... if you could do it with Skype it would make for a more realistic number.

it does not matter who uses it, it simply matters that users in all MMO's use it. It is simply a relevant population indicator.

you want another indicator, go to Alexa or Quantcast and you can compare website traffic numbers.

Maybe, just maybe Rift players dont use Xfire... Like 99.9% of the actual mmo community.

"HAR HAR look at Xfire"

Give me a break please Bioware/EA just reduced SWTORs servers by more than 200!!!!!!!!

EA has gone on record saying they are focusing their efforts away from SWTOR!

Bioware staff have been fired over SWTOR failing dude!

HOWever, RIFT is revalant! Its still being developed for and has a new expansion on the way.

Trion hasn't fired anyone (hell they are making two more MMOs!) and the game has been steady when it comes to server merges for months now. 

Seriously who gives a crap about unreliable statistic sites like Xfire when you have all of that other info to go on?

 

 

what other info?  from what information and hard numbers that I see SWOTOR peaked in December, declined drastically from December 31st to January 31st then a more gradual slope through may and has leveled out. Rift had less than a third of the users at peak which was over a year ago, had a decline until january and has been steady ever since but with about 1/5 th the users

 

If you can find some hard numbers other than the website traffic and XFire number I am using then I would be happy to look at them

For what purpose?  Your whole position is based off of Xfire users which is flawed. 

 

See World of Tanks.

 

I also used  web site traffic numbers. So fa all you have presaented is a "it is becasue I say so" argument. That may be enough for debate at the grade school levelk but in the grown up world we use statistics. Show me whatever statistics you have to counter the XFire and web traffic numbers, or is this just a rant hoping to attract user or two to his game of choice?

Rift had it's launch, did reasonably well, suffered the attrition all MMOs go through and now is a nice steady niche game. It will never be one of the top 20 games again. Sorry but that is just a fact

Originally posted by Jackdog

I also used  web site traffic numbers. So fa all you have presaented is a "it is becasue I say so" argument. That may be enough for debate at the grade school levelk but in the grown up world we use statistics. Show me whatever statistics you have to counter the XFire and web traffic numbers, or is this just a rant hoping top attract user or two to his game of choice?

 No offense guy but the only one appearing to rant is you.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Jackdog

I also used  web site traffic numbers. So fa all you have presaented is a "it is becasue I say so" argument. That may be enough for debate at the grade school levelk but in the grown up world we use statistics. Show me whatever statistics you have to counter the XFire and web traffic numbers, or is this just a rant hoping top attract user or two to his game of choice?

 No offense guy but the only one appearing to rant is you.

I am quoting statistics and metrics to back up my argument, I have yet to see anyone else post anything other than " this is what I believe so it must be true" argument.

Still waiting on any hard number statisitics. In the mainstream MMMO world that WOW , AION, SWOTOR, EVE, and LOTRO are the top 5 adult MMOS in population. Rift is somewhere around #10 or 11. If you have any hard evidence that shows otherwise I would really like to see that link

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Jackdog

I also used  web site traffic numbers. So fa all you have presaented is a "it is becasue I say so" argument. That may be enough for debate at the grade school levelk but in the grown up world we use statistics. Show me whatever statistics you have to counter the XFire and web traffic numbers, or is this just a rant hoping top attract user or two to his game of choice?

 No offense guy but the only one appearing to rant is you.

I am quoting statistics and metrics to back up my argument, I have yet to see anyone else post anything other than " this is what I believe so it must be true" argument.

Still waiting on any hard number statisitics. In the mainstream MMMO world that WOW , SWOTOR, EVE, and LOTRO are the top 4 adult western MMOS in population. Rift is somewhere around #8. If you have any hard evidence that shows otherwise I would really like to see that link

 

 What are you even talking about? Where did I ever say Rift had more people than SWTOR?

I actually said the opposite earlier in this very thread I believe. Think you're confusing me with another poster.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

 

 What are you even talking about? Where did I ever say Rift had more people than SWTOR?

 my point in my first post was a lot of people disagreed judging by the player base and was promptly piled on by the RIFT fans here claiming I was wrong, want to move the goal posts now ?

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

 

 What are you even talking about? Where did I ever say Rift had more people than SWTOR?

 my point in my first post was a lot of people disagreed judging by the player base and was promptly piled on by the RIFT fans here claiming I was wrong, want to move the goal posts now ?

 And? You asked me to prove your numbers wrong when I never disagreed with your overview to begin with.

Like I said before and as you keep showing - the only one appearing to rant here is you.

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Jackdog

I also used  web site traffic numbers. So fa all you have presaented is a "it is becasue I say so" argument. That may be enough for debate at the grade school levelk but in the grown up world we use statistics. Show me whatever statistics you have to counter the XFire and web traffic numbers, or is this just a rant hoping top attract user or two to his game of choice?

 No offense guy but the only one appearing to rant is you.

I am quoting statistics and metrics to back up my argument, I have yet to see anyone else post anything other than " this is what I believe so it must be true" argument.

Still waiting on any hard number statisitics. In the mainstream MMMO world that WOW , AION, SWOTOR, EVE, and LOTRO are the top 5 adult MMOS in population. Rift is somewhere around #10 or 11. If you have any hard evidence that shows otherwise I would really like to see that link

 

Concurent users mean nothing.

Rift has a lower population but its population is stable (u said it yourself its been stable since Jan). 

The percentange of Servers merged is far greater than that of RIFT

Developers for SWTOR have been fired due to the declining playerbase.

EA has gone on Record saying they are re-focasing away from SWTOR

Trion has an expansion in the works for Rift and they continue to add content they are much more focused.

Bioware is already talking F2p to stay competitive, Trion has done no such thing.

SWTOR is bleeding subs faster and has merged servers faster and contemplated F2p faster than any AAA mmo to ever release. <--- Facts

^that line in red is the reason RIFT Beat SWTOR. Concurrent user data means jack atm.

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

Trion created an endgame that wouldn't be completely devoured in two weeks.

 

Posts like this should not be permitted as it was only intended to start a flame war.  SInce when was this a boxing match?

Personally, I played TOR for 6 months.  I enjoyed it and still continue to enjoy it.  I played RIFT at release and was bored after a few weeks.  I played a bunch of other games you list in your credits.  Some you list for playing years where I could only play a week or two bcause I couldn't stomach them. 

The difference is I don't come to these forums and create whiny posts about how this game beat that game.  So please, either get some maturity or dont bother posting stuff like this because we don't care.

Please, if you are so hurt that TOR didnt meet your epectations, go talk to a shrink or something.  Threadslike this deserve to be deleted.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Z3R01

 

Trion created an endgame that wouldn't be completely devoured in two weeks.

 

Posts like this should not be permitted as it was only intended to start a flame war.  SInce when was this a boxing match?

 

Why because its true? 

I dont see how im trolling. This site litteraly predicted that Rift would be forced to die in F2p land once SWTOR released.

Pointing out that this hasent happened isnt a bait, flame or troll move. 

Seriously if me brining this up upsets anyone feel free to ignore the topic or Ignore me altogether because trolling someone is certainly not my intention.