Originally posted by Liknvi

http://lotrocommunity.com/forum/topic/1410-how-turbine-values-their-fans/

This is the most active thread on this topic, and I couldn't do this without the help I've received from the lovely folks at lotrocommunity.com and MMORPG.com.

Turbine has yet to respond to my reply to their absurd "It was a search-only FAQ..." rebuttal.

Thank you all for all the links and advice you've given me!

Of course the wargs appear lovely when they smell blood and are invited to hunt The Man :p

Originally posted by xalvi

Originally posted by rdrakken

I lost all respect for Turbine when they chose to go paytrap with LOTRO...it went against everything the industry knows. DDO was a massive hit with F2P because it was F2P with a store with great items...they made a TON of money like all really good F2Ps do, no paytrap has ever been close to being as successful(Money wise) as the better F2Ps.

Turbine deserves to lose money for doing what they did with LOTRO, the game should be making more than Runes of Magic and Atlantica Online COMBINED...instead, it isnt even doing half what either of those games are making. Its the same with Funcom and AoC, Sony and EQ2 and even DCUO....all of them should be making far more than any of the F2Ps out there because of the quality and depth they bring.

Instead, they are making a fraction of what they would be because its just a paytrap...games that arent good enough to sub for in the first place, which is why the populations dropped so much, makes no sense to use a paytrap model with games that are near death.

Agreed. For a Lotr genre, a mmo should be making 2nd to WoW (if WoW is still #1, that is) on the playerbase+money income. Lotr has an enormous amount of fans, but turbine has failed to deliver on many levels. People could say this isnt a pvp game, but for those lore-nerds isnt monsterplay part of the lore? Fighting the army of the eye on the well-known map ettenmoors and such.

When you said turbine deserves to lose money, they alrady are and going down really fast hence why free2play came. Not much people respect this company  not only on a personal level (being lyed to, financial, poor expansions), but for the outdated gameplay (Combat, graphics).

I have no sympathy for any turbine employes and i hope they get shut down for all the backstabbing they did to us loyal Lotr fans.

Don't forget many Turbine fans, including myself, never forgot the betrayal of Asheron's Call 2's "Legion" expansion... release the expansion, make people pay for it, and then shut down the whole game a couple of months later without refunds. Some people bash SoE or EA for being very bad money greedy companies, but Turbine beat them both hands down concerning betrayal towards loyal customers.

Ah, I do believe this will be the final red flag for me, in regards to Turbine. I already had a foot and 1/2 out the door, but now it's both feet. Good luck, Turbine. Maybe you and Frogster can hook up sometime and trade "success" stories.

It sux when you want a refund, this issue must be solved. yea my only solution is check some footage and forums before you buy your product. and yea digital items doesn't get refunded and there is no law that say such thing about refunding. So careful when buying new games or softwares.

I have played many games and worst of all you cant refund something that you already opened. steam provide a refund if your digtial copy is damaged during downloading, or when game is closed and you cant play it like any other online games.

edit:

yea and one more thing as a begginer accountant why the hell it says account management? in their massage this is should be a sale management not the accountant manager to do this. becuase accountant only responsible on recording transications and not responsible to take  sales on an item? or I am wrong?

I read the Op's posts on here as well as the lotro fan site that was linked in this thread.

I know the OP has gone back and forth about wondering if she shold stay or leave. My advice would be to cut your losses and get what money and respect back that you can and never give Turbine a chance to do this to you again.

They have done it before, they will do it in the future and the only thing they will change is the methods so they can insure they are able to get away with it in the future.

The other thing that could happen if you stay is you will get banned for some ambiguous "behavior" issue as some dissenters have before. They use this tactic to shut down the most vocal of critics while trying to put the ban category under a violation of the TOS, ensuring they have the right of it if you try to come back for remedy. Ask around, you will find people who thought they have "won" only to be banned later under dubious circumstances.

Don't fall for their chap bribes because 10-20 dolars worth of free Turbone points is much less than you will spend in the long run with money, time and aggrivation. Take this victory and move on to a game run by a company that is not so duplicitious. There are not many, but a few good eggs out there.

Good luck in whatever you do.

This isn't the first time Turbine has done this with LOTRO.  I have a lifetime account, but I uninstalled and deleted my billing info after they did this with Mirkwood.  They deserve everything that happens to them.

Originally posted by DashiDMV

I read the Op's posts on here as well as the lotro fan site that was linked in this thread.

 

I know the OP has gone back and forth about wondering if she shold stay or leave. My advice would be to cut your losses and get what money and respect back that you can and never give Turbine a chance to do this to you again.

 

They have done it before, they will do it in the future and the only thing they will change is the methods so they can insure they are able to get away with it in the future.

 

The other thing that could happen if you stay is you will get banned for some ambiguous "behavior" issue as some dissenters have before. They use this tactic to shut down the most vocal of critics while trying to put the ban category under a violation of the TOS, ensuring they have the right of it if you try to come back for remedy. Ask around, you will find people who thought they have "won" only to be banned later under dubious circumstances.

 

Don't fall for their chap bribes because 10-20 dolars worth of free Turbone points is much less than you will spend in the long run with money, time and aggrivation. Take this victory and move on to a game run by a company that is not so duplicitious. There are not many, but a few good eggs out there.

 

Good luck in whatever you do.

Great post. +1

I have to agree with Turbine on this one. The FAQ is not written by the same people that write the expansions or the descriptions for the expansions. I saw no such claim of features on the expansion purchase only on an error that was corrected in the FAQ.

Their policy has always been possible suspension/bans for reverse charges as is every company I've ever dealt with for online purchases. If I recall, it's also stated in the EULA and I believe the last expansion I looked at also stated no refunds after entering the key to the account.

Over-reaction for already clearly stated policies.

If the feature were stated on the purchase, then I would change my opinion.

---

Originally posted by DashiDMV

*snip*

The other thing that could happen if you stay is you will get banned for some ambiguous "behavior" issue as some dissenters have before. They use this tactic to shut down the most vocal of critics while trying to put the ban category under a violation of the TOS, ensuring they have the right of it if you try to come back for remedy. Ask around, you will find people who thought they have "won" only to be banned later under dubious circumstances.

*snip*

---

The company behaviour you are describing in the quoted paragraph is - sadly - becoming more and more common nowadays. If someone is a pain for your business and even if that one is fully right in being so, shut them up. If you can't do it the direct way, find another. And if you can do harm to them on that way, too, do it.

Some time ago this was somthing done by so called "shady businesses" but it seems this will soon be or already is a "best business practice".

I think - besides all those customer rights organisations - it has never been easier for large companies to treat customers like mud under your feet and getting away with it smiling.

---

Originally posted by KamiKazeTG

I have to agree with Turbine on this one. The FAQ is not written by the same people that write the expansions or the descriptions for the expansions. I saw no such claim of features on the expansion purchase only on an error that was corrected in the FAQ.

*snip*

---

And a FAQ directly linked from the purchase page and answering questions directly related to the purchase in question is relevant to that purchase.

This whole situation sucks pretty badly. I remember when SOE tried to shit on us with the Trials of Obi Wan expansion. Even when you get your money back it leaves that nasty taste in your mouth. These things should just never happen.

Originally posted by DashiDMV

The other thing that could happen if you stay is you will get banned for some ambiguous "behavior" issue as some dissenters have before. They use this tactic to shut down the most vocal of critics while trying to put the ban category under a violation of the TOS, ensuring they have the right of it if you try to come back for remedy. Ask around, you will find people who thought they have "won" only to be banned later under dubious circumstances.

This is true. While it didn't happen to me, I witnessed this first hand. And that happens since "sapience" took over the customer support team though... even more sad if we consider this game had one of the best customer support of all MMOs before, when "patience" was in charge.

[mod edit  - stay constructive]

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?464108-A-word-about-the-Riders-of-Rohan-Pre-Purchase-packs here is shown that the instance clusters are included with the RoR pack. THough probably not released with RoR, it'll be included with an update. Much like with the RoI expansion...

And yeah, I can't blame Turbine for banning players who'll make a refund. After all, with the pre-purchase you've already had some goodies from the RoR expansion...

When the last expansion rise of isengard rolled out I did not buy it for me or the wife.  Even though I have a lifetime sub to the game we not played it since som rolled out.

When the last expac went live we did not buy it, 2 days after it went live we both got an email saying our accounts had been temp banned due to suspicious activity.  I had to actually call turbine on the phone to get it resolved.  What I found out was the went thought and temp banned a lot of accounts via an automated process.  The cs rep on the phone was like well I don't see any strange use of your account, we had a process that identified accounts, looks like your account was one of the ones accidently identified. There was no accident, they did that on purpose, you did not buy the xpac here is a ban.

So yes the guy has a reason to be worried about being banned.  Heck my account got banned because of lack of use. How funny is that.

Originally posted by Reizla

[mod edit]

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?464108-A-word-about-the-Riders-of-Rohan-Pre-Purchase-packs here is shown that the instance clusters are included with the RoR pack. THough probably not released with RoR, it'll be included with an update. Much like with the RoI expansion...

And yeah, I can't blame Turbine for banning players who'll make a refund. After all, with the pre-purchase you've already had some goodies from the RoR expansion...

It actually wasn't bs or trolling because at the time of OP's post they were doing just that banning people for requesting a refund and not answeing the public when asked about why they took out instance clusters from all of the expansions. It was reported in the news and Turbine hadn't yet posted apologies to the public yet or offered info on what they were going to do with the clusters or points yet. 

OP wasn't trolling just reacting to the situation. It's really sad tho that initially they didn't want to repair their own mistake and cause such confusion with the public by letting this slide for a couple of days whilst charging the highest price in expansions anyone's ever seen in a long time in this industry.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by DashiDMV

The other thing that could happen if you stay is you will get banned for some ambiguous "behavior" issue as some dissenters have before. They use this tactic to shut down the most vocal of critics while trying to put the ban category under a violation of the TOS, ensuring they have the right of it if you try to come back for remedy. Ask around, you will find people who thought they have "won" only to be banned later under dubious circumstances.

This is true. While it didn't happen to me, I witnessed this first hand. And that happens since "sapience" took over the customer support team though... even more sad if we consider this game had one of the best customer support of all MMOs before, when "patience" was in charge.

Wow, im so glad im not the only one agreed to the fullest. Sapience is one of the worst "Leader" of customer support i have ever saw in a game and in real life. I remember when the forums wasnt full of sensetive backstabbing people who just report because they know they will recieve a new system of  "infractions". I also remember when the customer support on the forums didnt bann people for every little thing they said, including calling out turbine. Sapience takes everything you say and twists it into "trolling" + "Violation of CoC" and takes the banhammer out. Same goes with ingame GMs, they used to be patient and sympathetic but now ever since RoI everything gone sh**. 

Im glad GW2 is coming out so i dont have to deal with all this nonsense, at least, from my experience, they arent 80year old virgins and ban people for everything lol. The devs in that game were trolling people ( including myself) and messing around, after all this is just a game not a interview at an ivy league university.

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I don't think this will help the conversation or not; but in general I find pre-orders to be a scam.

Early access to beta being a "prize" is just as bad as this in my opinion.

Yeah, I tend to agree.  Pride and integrity of the product goes downhill after "X" amount of dollars are reached in pre-order sales.

"We met or sales quota, who cares if we take out the new instance".

Normally I'm against chargebacks when someone just doesn't like the product, in this case, however, Turbine has failed and doesn't have a leg to stand on if this were taken to court.

Originally posted by Reizla

[mod edit]

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?464108-A-word-about-the-Riders-of-Rohan-Pre-Purchase-packs here is shown that the instance clusters are included with the RoR pack. THough probably not released with RoR, it'll be included with an update. Much like with the RoI expansion...

And yeah, I can't blame Turbine for banning players who'll make a refund. After all, with the pre-purchase you've already had some goodies from the RoR expansion...

To be fair, this post was made as a result of the complaints like that of the OP, they had never made this clear prior to this posting and it was made days after the OP post.  

To the OP cut your losses and move to another game.  ive played Lotro since SoA and i can tell you the quality of their product is a mere shadow of its former self.  Their new "hybrid" (lol) ftp is a scam and everyone knows it.  The isengard xpac is still broken in every aspect.  PvP is pay to win.  the dragon raid is still broken after multiple attepts to fix it.  ( how hard is it to fix a 2 phase fight with 3 mechanics)  and dont even get me started with the T2 tower raid.  everything started going downhill with MoM and i can only imagine RoR state will be a disgrace.  Turbine is adding a new engine for mounted combat when they can even get the current engine to run smoothly.  What a joke.  Great game idea run by a horrible company.

PS real actors for rohan cut scenes?  how much did that cost?  put that money into your dev team

So Turbine posted in the original preorder faq that the instance cluster would be free to all purchasers of the expansion, then changed it and claimed that they "made a mistake"...OR they just flat out misled people under the guise of a "mistake". Now the shit is hitting the fan and Turbine is acting butthurt over the refunds being sought. Suck it up Turbine.

How did the statement that the instance cluster would be free to everyone who preordered the expansion evre make it into the original preorder faq? Either it's a rope-a-dope by Turbine which is equal to lying and fraud, or it is a colossal fuck up by Turbine which they should have just rolled with rather than redact it, attempt pathetic damage control and then act butthurt when people are pissed and want their money back.

Frankly, my money is on the rope-a-dope because I have a hard time believing they just "accidentally" left that part in the original preorder faq. If so, they are incompetent as all hell.

I'm just glad I quit playing after RoI (disappointment), I just wish I quit playing before RoI because I could have saved myself $40.