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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMO's are a failed genre design and a massive scam

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78 posts found
  rcubano

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/12
Posts: 68

6/14/12 8:40:17 AM#61
Originally posted by Strap 

 I agree that "failing" is not the best word to use here but commercial viability is not the only yardstick to be used. The slot machine gambling industry in Australia is thriving but at the cost of lives (suicides) and families breaking up and societies general well-being. Sure, the industry is a fantastic commercial success but so the hell what? I'm certainly not going to stop criticising it or arguing it needs to be better regulated because it makes money for people that are already rich.

MMOs are fast becoming scams. The P2W movement is screaming scam. Sure, the vast majority can play them and spend hardly any money, but the design relies on a small percentage of players spending big. If you genuinely believe those players spending hundreds of dollars are not getting scammed and truly getting their moneys worth you are out of your mind. It is not very different to e-mail scams that flourish because a teeny tiny percentage of people are stupid enough to click on the link.

At my most cynical, I'd say it is only a matter of time before cash shops are ubiquitous and MMO gameplay is designed to gently nudge you to spend more money every time you turn a corner.

In the face of failing economic systems ravaging the world like an end-game pandemic, I'd say being a commerical success is a good goal to aim for. 

In a free market economy, people use their money to buy things they value, so businesses that make a ton of money are producing goods and services that society assigns value to on an individual-by-individual basis.  I understand there's some exceptions to this rule, but we're talking about video games not drug cartels, so let's avoid hyperbole, shall we?  The exceptions are (and should be) very few and far-between, allowing you (a free, thinking individual) to decide for yourself what you value, and therefore place your hard-earned money in. 

So the hell what if people assign value to MMO games, and therefore pay money to them?  God forbid a business "gently nudge you" to give them money for a service they're providing you, and which you are partaking in freely and frequently.  What a travesty!

 

  Four0Six

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1098

6/14/12 8:44:50 AM#62
Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

I honestly believe the MMO game genre as a whole isn't what it's cracked up to be. Way back in April 2006 an old ex-friend of mine wanted me to try out WoW, when I first played this game I was really amazed with it as I never played a top class MMO game before it, trying out my first character as a Gnome Warrior along with my ex-friend, those were fun times. But then things changed, as I wanted to play new characters, he didn't want to help me anymore and I ended up being a loner. I never liked the idea of playing with random people, some nice and most are douces and eventally it became nothing but douces. I played up until 2010 and the last 2 years on private servers and I still ended up being alone, always hoping my luck would change which it never did. In between these years I played other MMO's and they still had the same problem, I was still bored and lonely. Seriously how do you people put up with this? Joining guilds or groups is not for me because all people do is bitch or stay silent.

I was once talking to my hair dresser about WoW and he thinks WoW is a big con of a scam and I think he's right, what is the point of investing your time and money for a game you don't enjoy and I believe it's the same with all MMO's minus the heavy trolling WoW gets and instead are ghost towns.

Years ago WoW was king, nowhere days WoW is a dying horse and most people now prefer Team Fortress 2 and the ARMA 2 Mod game, DayZ, the latter of which has all the qualities of an MMO without being an MMO.

The MMO genre as a whole was really a failed game genre that was broken from the start of it's invention and I think I know why. People don't want to play a game that becomes a job or is a borefest, people want to have fun whenever they like and so I believe we've come to the death of the MMO genre.

 SO in a nutshell = You do not like to play with groups of people that you don't know in RL.

Solution = MMOs are not "fail" in and of themselfs. You do not like the model and shold move on. Try a console and a group of friend sin your licing room.

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1396

6/14/12 8:46:41 AM#63

OP this sounds like a you problem.  I thought you were going to describe a real design flaw with MMO's as a genre, instead you discussed your own problems.

  User Deleted
6/14/12 8:50:30 AM#64
Originally posted by Kyleran

Let's clarify a few points.

MMO's have not failed, people buy/play them by the millions and companies are making money off of them.

MMO's are not scams, they are designed to make money for their Developers, if they happen to entertain you in the process they're likely to make a bunch of money. (esp in the term of long term subs or purchases from the cash shop)

MMORPG's may have evolved in different directions than some of us would like (me, I prefer more realistic virtual worlds with consequences for failure, a la EVE) however that does not mean as a genre they have failed.

Some MMO titles do certainly fail (close their doors or go on life support), but overall I keep seeing new titles released every year so again, someone is having fun out there.

MMO's can provide a good social experience.  I'll grant you, they are not designed around social mechanics anywhere near what they were in the past, but still, if you go looking for people to play with, you'll find them.

That said, they are not a substitute for having a real world social life and they won't fix it if you don't have one. (speaking as one with experience)

There is much I don't like about today's MMO's, however there are more than enough titles that I manage to "find the fun" in even if it's only for a shorter period of time than I would prefer.

 

People eat McDonalds everyday eventhough they know it isn't good for them too. Just saying...  I just think mmos are designed poorly but it doesn't matter to players, they buy it anyway. See what I mean ? Too many people are hung up on the word mmo.

  mrw0lf

Novice Member

Joined: 4/09/05
Posts: 2311

6/14/12 9:25:36 AM#65
Originally posted by Mephster
Originally posted by Kyleran

Let's clarify a few points.

MMO's have not failed, people buy/play them by the millions and companies are making money off of them.

MMO's are not scams, they are designed to make money for their Developers, if they happen to entertain you in the process they're likely to make a bunch of money. (esp in the term of long term subs or purchases from the cash shop)

MMORPG's may have evolved in different directions than some of us would like (me, I prefer more realistic virtual worlds with consequences for failure, a la EVE) however that does not mean as a genre they have failed.

Some MMO titles do certainly fail (close their doors or go on life support), but overall I keep seeing new titles released every year so again, someone is having fun out there.

MMO's can provide a good social experience.  I'll grant you, they are not designed around social mechanics anywhere near what they were in the past, but still, if you go looking for people to play with, you'll find them.

That said, they are not a substitute for having a real world social life and they won't fix it if you don't have one. (speaking as one with experience)

There is much I don't like about today's MMO's, however there are more than enough titles that I manage to "find the fun" in even if it's only for a shorter period of time than I would prefer.

 

People eat McDonalds everyday eventhough they know it isn't good for them too. Just saying...  I just think mmos are designed poorly but it doesn't matter to players, they buy it anyway. See what I mean ? Too many people are hung up on the word mmo.

I'm not sure your analogy works on the priniciple that people don't generally goto McD's for food that's good for them, they go because it's cheap, fills them up and tastes good. It generally fulfills their expectations. The difference being with mmo's atm is that people buy them in stupid numbers then days or weeks later are leaving in droves and complaining on every forum going (feeding the idea that all mmo's are dead). Leaving these games in a possition where they have to go f2p to stay alive, seeing as how they are little more than sp games (just with lots of people about) in the first place. In general expectation are not even nearlly being met and that's why they are flawed.

This isn't brain surgery, it's pretty obvious if you leave out the thing that makes your game different, people will judge it against others in the sp genre and in that aspect no mmo's server structured game will come close.

MMO's used to have a point and a very few still do, they are seen as hardcore but they arn't they are just true to the original principle of the genre. You can't do everything and you will need to rely on others around you, that's why there are other playing with you.

-----
“The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.”

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

6/14/12 10:19:00 AM#66
Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

...

I was once talking to my hair dresser about WoW and he thinks WoW is a big con of a scam and I think he's right, what is the point of investing your time and money for a game you don't enjoy and I believe it's the same with all MMO's minus the heavy trolling WoW gets and instead are ghost towns.

Years ago WoW was king, nowhere days WoW is a dying horse and most people now prefer Team Fortress 2 and the ARMA 2 Mod game, DayZ, the latter of which has all the qualities of an MMO without being an MMO.

The MMO genre as a whole was really a failed game genre that was broken from the start of it's invention and I think I know why. People don't want to play a game that becomes a job or is a borefest, people want to have fun whenever they like and so I believe we've come to the death of the MMO genre.

 

Decades ago I moved to a new city.   I needed a haircut for a job interview with a regional CPA firm.   My hairdresser asked me what I did.   I said I was a tax accountant (which was massively simplifying things).   He said he was too!    Yeah.  So I asked him about it.   He worked for H&R Block and made $6 an hour.

 

I got a laugh out of that.     Though not to his face.  I didn't want a bad haircut.   So you might be able to understand what I think of the 'my hairdresser said so' argument...

 

As for the rest...   WoW will reset with the next patch.   It always does.   There's a reason for that, though I'm not going to get into the math of the population dynamics.   I learned a long time ago that people who'll give weight to what the uninformed say will not listen to someone who is a technocrat and can do the calculus necessary to plot the population dynamic curves...

ARMA2 Day Z is cute.   But it's a shooter with a persistent log-in feature, not a  persistent character feature.   And it does not really exhibit any signifcant charater development or persistance.  So it's not an MMO any more than Team Fortress or BF3 is an MMO.  

 

But, more importantly, why do you post?    I don't like Harley Davidson motorcycles.   I don't go to their forums and tell them their big fat hogs handle like garbage scows...   And that they're over-priced pieces of junk.  They're not going to listen and my taste in motorcycles doesn't make me right.   Just as theirs doesn't make them wrong.

 

Now, we can talk about repair rates.  Failure rates.   Design defects.   Quality.   That sort of thing because they can be objectively measured.   But the taste part...   Nope..

 

 

  Grixxitt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 556

6/14/12 10:22:21 AM#67

This thread is a horrible troll attempt and a massive scam

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  Edeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/10
Posts: 513

6/14/12 10:22:41 AM#68

This thread makes me sad for furries....

Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  Jakdstripper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2114

6/14/12 10:44:48 AM#69
Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

I really had no idea why he would never help me out but WoW wasn't the reason I lost him as a friend, he just stopped contacting me on Windows Messenger and Skype, my guess is he's an extremely busy person with then college and now whatever work he's doing. Last time I met him in person he's stopped playing WoW and was too busy trying to make a website for an estate agentcy, also he became fat and sticky. and that was all a year ago.

Not really much of a friend if you don't keep contact.

personally i disagree, i believe that true selfless friendship endures regardless of how long you are forced apart for whatever reason.  a true friend understands that life gets busy, that situations change, that people change,  that relationships with other people sometimes get in the way and he does not hold your friendship hostage for time spent together. he gives you all the room and time you need and always welcomes you back as if you never left.

that is a truly special selfless friendship, and the only way to get it is to first give it. everything else is just people bartering emotion, as soon as they stop getting what they want from you they stop giving and even get mad about it.   

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7195

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/14/12 10:51:39 AM#70
Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

I honestly believe the MMO game genre as a whole isn't what it's cracked up to be

Ok, nice strong opening statement... lets see why you may not have enjoyed these social co-op based games...

I ended up being a loner. I never liked the idea of playing with random people

...erm...

I think we have discovered the issue.

what is the point of investing your time and money for a game you don't enjoy

There isn't one, ofc. if you don't enjoy them go play something you DO enjoy. Seemingly something that's co-op with you and your buddy so you don't have to run the risk of meeting strangers..

BUT... YOU don't like them and so you come here telling us all that the genre is broken, because you don't like the idea of playing with random people... and you don't see anything wrong with that? :/

 

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

6/14/12 10:51:46 AM#71
Originally posted by Amaranthar

If all any motorcycle company made were hogs or mopeds, you'd probably be posting negative comments somewhere.

 

Funny, but you don't see me on the Harley boards or the Vespa boards...    And that's what they do, repectively.   You will see me, as ownership moves me, on either the Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki or Suzuki boards.   Those are the brands I ride.    With the Honda VF750 Interceptor is still my favorite bike of all time.  

 

Though there is something about my dad's vintage Norton Commando 750cc Twin that tickles my fancy.    And, sometimes, I just wish I had my grandfather's old Indian from the 1930s...    My uncle has it, doesn't ride it, and just sits there rotten tires, rusty paint and chrome, just begging for a complete restoration...  

 

And, yes, newer, modern bikes are so much better...    Faster.   Brake harder.   All that sort of stuff.   But they lack nostalgia.

  Saxonblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 280

6/14/12 10:53:17 AM#72
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

I honestly believe the MMO game genre as a whole isn't what it's cracked up to be

Ok, nice strong opening statement... lets see why you may not have enjoyed these social co-op based games...

I ended up being a loner. I never liked the idea of playing with random people

...erm...

I think we have discovered the issue.

what is the point of investing your time and money for a game you don't enjoy

There isn't one, ofc. if you don't enjoy them go play something you DO enjoy. Seemingly something that's co-op with you and your buddy so you don't have to run the risk of meeting strangers..

BUT... YOU don't like them and so you come here telling us all that the genre is broken, because you don't like the idea of playing with random people... and you don't see anything wrong with that? :/

 

^^

This 

  Trol1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 184

6/14/12 11:27:25 AM#73
Originally posted by Mephster
Too many people are hung up on the word mmo.

Would you care to enlighten us what we should then be looking for instead?

(As a sidenote, I never cared really about MMOs, for me it was actually pretty much always MMORPG or nothing...)

  RudyRaccoon

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/09
Posts: 470

 
OP  6/15/12 9:59:03 AM#74

I suppose those that say MMO's are not for me are probably right, I'll never be able to play any MMO again, if you all say MMO's are meant to be played with other people then how can I continue playing them if I have nobody to play with? :(

I suppose I should stop playing these full stop and just stick with non-MMO games for now on.

  Trol1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 184

6/15/12 1:28:35 PM#75
Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

I suppose those that say MMO's are not for me are probably right, I'll never be able to play any MMO again, if you all say MMO's are meant to be played with other people then how can I continue playing them if I have nobody to play with? :(

I suppose I should stop playing these full stop and just stick with non-MMO games for now on.

Part of me wants to congrats you on your choice...

but the other somehow feels sorry for you...

I mean let's be real for a sec: it's a game played over the internet. The I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T.

Where Aunti-je in Mombay can speak live with her NRI nephew Raj in Toronto. Where you can watch a top rated pornstar grind her vagina into a webcam on the other side of the ocean. Where a fat 50 year old guy can groom that 12 year old girl 2 villages over to be his sextoy.

It's the WEB, man!

And you are telling me that you can't connect with anybody out there?

I mean I sorry, and I don't want to bash your ego, but I looked at your other posts and, well, as much as I like weird people you are just not my type of weird... but then again this may be completely different for other people...

And if you don't come in riding on a "I'm gay, but I'm not quite out of the closet, but I'm looking for love anyways, and I'm a furry, but I haven't told anybody, and I'm looking for some sweet petting action, and I'm afraid of being hurt by people but I'd like to be with people, just not too close because they may be unhygenic" horse - not saying that any of this fits you, just dropping waterbombs - you may as well be the black man under the hood at the KKK convention: people may like you!

And here is another idea: start helping people!

Okay, yeah, sure, not everybody is going to end up a great buddy, probably not even 1% of those people you helped, but you may find good people, and they may talk to you and adventure with you and may turn out not to be douches.

The important thing is that YOU need to put yourself out there. Nobody is going to pick up that wallflower standing there in the corner for a dance. Unless she has Double D tits and blowjob lips and her dress is short enough to pretty much show all of her panties. ;-)

But I guess, in the end what it comes down to is what type of game you want to play. If you prefer to be save in your little singleplayer shell, hey, that's cool.

But you may also want to consider that the internet and MMOs are something like a testing ground for social interaction in RL.

There you can fuck things up, and then sneak out and come back with a new name. In RL this won't be as easy.

So, ask yourself: are you ready to be that bitter old fart who gets his groceries delivered to his doorstep and only picks them up after the driver has gone?

  RudyRaccoon

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/09
Posts: 470

 
OP  6/18/12 12:21:09 PM#76
Originally posted by Trol1
Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

I suppose those that say MMO's are not for me are probably right, I'll never be able to play any MMO again, if you all say MMO's are meant to be played with other people then how can I continue playing them if I have nobody to play with? :(

I suppose I should stop playing these full stop and just stick with non-MMO games for now on.

Part of me wants to congrats you on your choice...

but the other somehow feels sorry for you...

I mean let's be real for a sec: it's a game played over the internet. The I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T.

Where Aunti-je in Mombay can speak live with her NRI nephew Raj in Toronto. Where you can watch a top rated pornstar grind her vagina into a webcam on the other side of the ocean. Where a fat 50 year old guy can groom that 12 year old girl 2 villages over to be his sextoy.

It's the WEB, man!

And you are telling me that you can't connect with anybody out there?

I mean I sorry, and I don't want to bash your ego, but I looked at your other posts and, well, as much as I like weird people you are just not my type of weird... but then again this may be completely different for other people...

And if you don't come in riding on a "I'm gay, but I'm not quite out of the closet, but I'm looking for love anyways, and I'm a furry, but I haven't told anybody, and I'm looking for some sweet petting action, and I'm afraid of being hurt by people but I'd like to be with people, just not too close because they may be unhygenic" horse - not saying that any of this fits you, just dropping waterbombs - you may as well be the black man under the hood at the KKK convention: people may like you!

And here is another idea: start helping people!

Okay, yeah, sure, not everybody is going to end up a great buddy, probably not even 1% of those people you helped, but you may find good people, and they may talk to you and adventure with you and may turn out not to be douches.

The important thing is that YOU need to put yourself out there. Nobody is going to pick up that wallflower standing there in the corner for a dance. Unless she has Double D tits and blowjob lips and her dress is short enough to pretty much show all of her panties. ;-)

But I guess, in the end what it comes down to is what type of game you want to play. If you prefer to be save in your little singleplayer shell, hey, that's cool.

But you may also want to consider that the internet and MMOs are something like a testing ground for social interaction in RL.

There you can fuck things up, and then sneak out and come back with a new name. In RL this won't be as easy.

So, ask yourself: are you ready to be that bitter old fart who gets his groceries delivered to his doorstep and only picks them up after the driver has gone?


Wait? Are you suggesting I should go in any MMO and actually try to find and help other people?

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3342

6/18/12 12:34:26 PM#77

I feel your pain Rudy..  Many old school players, which include me have noticed a change in the genre over the past 10 years..  When I first started playing EQ back in 99, we were all about community.. OH Granted there were some jerks that had to be dealt with, but that is part of life.. However, for the most part on my experience on Rodcet Nife is what we were politce, cooperateive and social.. People yapped all the tine in groups, /ooc or whatever..  Raiding was far more social then it is now.. IMO..  There were plenty of things to do to pass the time while either looking for a group or just taking a break..   Did I think EQ might of been too harsh on group reliance on basic things.. YES, but that was no excuse to toss the baby out with the bathwater.. 

Today's games solo'ing from quest hub to quest hub is just boring and predictable..  There have been alot of good features that have been added to the genre over the years, but overused instancing and raid restrictions are not some of them..  These MMO's today feel more like E-sport games like Black Ops or Counterstrike.. I or WE are better then you.. and the entire concept of social and community world building is tossed to the curb..  I guess some have epeens that need attention and MMO gaming is the only way to take care of that itch..  Sad.. so Sad

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/18/12 12:37:51 PM#78
Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

stuff

 

In response to your title

 

"MMO's are a failed genre design and a massive scam"

 

I've been playing MMOs for nearly a decade now. I've had enormous amounts of fun across many games, made many friends, and have a lot of fun memories to look back on (as well as videos and screenshots commemorating the experiences, much as one would look at old trophies or pictures of old feats).

It has also been a rather cheap hobby, saving me and my liver from many hours of heavy drinking.

I'm not seeing the scam... or the failed genre design.

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