Originally posted by MMOExposed

I still want to know how this RMT AH is making the game worst than when unoffical sites did the same thing?

 

 It makes it worse because now it's an integral part of the game, and as such, is highly accessible, highly accepted, and even encouraged.

I mean, if you want an analog, compare a legal drug like alcohol to an illegal drug like heroine.

Alcohol is extremely accepted in American society, even to the point of people who don't drink occasionally being ostracized.  It's also extremely accessible...there is usually at least one liquor store in every city block.  And society definitely encourages alcohol use through relentless advertisements.  As such, alcohol is very much a major part of American culture.

Now look at heroine...people who use it are generally called derogitory terms (junkies) and are seen as criminals and a drain on society.  In order to acquire heroine you need to risk your own personal safety by purchasing it from the criminal element.  And society actively discourages heroine use by putting users in jail.  As such, heroine is viewed as a "fringe" part of American culture.

You can apply this analogy to illegal vs. legal gold selling as well.

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by FelixMajor

Blizzard are pigs (period).  Gaming communists.

Does.not.compute.

What don't you understand?

"This one size-fits-all approach is a by-product of how Blizzard operates:  they're perfectionists who've forged an empire from knowing what gamers enjoy better than gamers themselves." - Evan Lahti - PC Gamer

Couldn't say it better.

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by fenistil

RMAH will make RMT much more common and because of it's avalibility and safety will increase overall RMT in games and I am against that. 

 ...

Why?   Isn't anyone that purchases/subsribes to a game already involved in RMT?

Nope. Pure B2P single player game / normal multiplayer or pure P2P mmo give you access to game and only that. 

RMT in multiplayer pvp or mmorpg games allow you to gain advantage because you spent more money. Also change game design / concept cause companies want to maximize CS / RMAH sales.

 

While I am not high-schooler anymore and I have to earn my own living - I am ok with gaining advantage in game through skill  or dedication or tactics, etc 

and not ok with gaining advantage though spending more $ on uber sword of awensomeness.

So is your problem with just game provided RMT (item shops, etc) or all forms of trade (player 2 player)?.  If player to player exchange can occur in the game, RMT will exist.  They only way to eliminate RMT (for in-game "stuff") is to make every single attainable item be bind-on-pickup, which would eliminate all trade in the game.   Even then there would still be RMT for "services" (boosting, powerlevelling, farming, etc)

OR, you could make the items in the game easily attainable......but that would completely wreck the premise of the game (and MOST modern MMORPGs) considering the game IS all about the gear (and percieved value of such)

Ultima Online (Pre-AoS) was the last MMO I've played where there wasn't a huge black market for RMT.  Gold & Items in game were common.....and a means to an end, which was experiencing the game's mechanics & content.  In gear focused games, gear IS the end.  A higher value is placed on the gear you're wearing than what you actually do in the game.  As a result, value for the gear goes up....creating an opportunity for very organized & efficient farming groups to fill a gap or un-met demand in the market.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I still want to know how this RMT AH is making the game worst than when unoffical sites did the same thing? 

It isn't. It's just the "normal outrage over anything Blizzard does" you're seeing. Apparently, if Blizzard adds something to their game that..*gasp*...they may make money off of...people get upset.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Now look at heroine...people who use it are generally called derogitory terms (junkies) and are seen as criminals and a drain on society.  In order to acquire heroine you need to risk your own personal safety by purchasing it from the criminal element.  And society actively discourages heroine use by putting users in jail.  As such, heroine is viewed as a "fringe" part of American culture.

Heroin/opiate use was still fringe when it wasn't criminalized.

Originally posted by FelixMajor

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by FelixMajor

Blizzard are pigs (period).  Gaming communists.

Does.not.compute.

What don't you understand?

 

"This one size-fits-all approach is a by-product of how Blizzard operates:  they're perfectionists who've forged an empire from knowing what gamers enjoy better than gamers themselves." - Evan Lahti - PC Gamer

 

Couldn't say it better.

I don't understand "Blizzard = communists"

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Trionicus

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by Thorbrand

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by Thorbrand

I myself hope this RMAH does fail because I sure don't want this to be the next gaming standard. And everyone was against my idea of upping the cost of a true MMO to $50.

As in $50/month subscription?

Yes! Because if you want a true MMO to be successful you need to target the true MMO players that will pay $50 sub to play. I know it is cheaper than what has been going on these few years with jumping from game to game and buying a new game every month because the last one failed or was already completed.

I agree.  Maybe not necessarily @ $50, but there is something to be said for different prices for different things.   Is your thinking that a higher price would lead to more money for development, or that a higher price would serve as a filter on the player population, or something else?

@$50 a month, you could get some seriously active DEV teams providing weekly content updates... maybe, or just make some people really rich lol.

It would be SUPER lucrative if the same number of players were subscribing @ $50 instead of $15.  At $50 a month, 1 subscriber would make up around 3 subscribers worth of revenue @ $15/month.  However, I suspect that you'd lose more than 3 subscribers, for every 1 retained....hence you'd actually LOSE revenue overall.

The reason is quality of quantiy which is how todays games are developed. None of these games retain any real numbers after the first 3 mos so why even try to target those numbers. Make a true MMO and let the true MMO players have a game to play that is more and just quest jumping or PvP. A full virtual world that was the reason MMO came to be. At $50 sub it would make up for the lower population at launch but they would make more money in the long run with few people. Any MMO that doesn't stay at the top for a year + isn't successful anyway no matter how big the launch was.

We need MMOs with content and gameplay to come back to the genre.

The best and only solution:

Create games without grind for gold and items!

Sometimes the solution to a big problem is so easy but it is like asking people to accept that our world is a sphere and not flat.

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by FelixMajor

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by FelixMajor

Blizzard are pigs (period).  Gaming communists.

Does.not.compute.

What don't you understand?

 

"This one size-fits-all approach is a by-product of how Blizzard operates:  they're perfectionists who've forged an empire from knowing what gamers enjoy better than gamers themselves." - Evan Lahti - PC Gamer

 

Couldn't say it better.

I don't understand "Blizzard = communists"

Nodobyd will understand, because everything Blizzard does is the antithesis of communism.  This whole thing is Capitalism on steroids.  All those out there that want to see what no regulation would look like in a capitalist system, this is what you get.  You get a few goldfarming/accountstealing groups drop a ton of supply on the market and push everyone else out of business.  There is nothing communistic about this, the only people who would think so are those that have no idea what the word means.

Most of the people here that have complained about the makret prices being so low so fast are just sick that they cant sell their items for insane money.

The market is no broken, its working as intended, you just being greedy trying to sell an item you never EVER technically own for hundreds of dollars, now with prices down around the 5-10 dollars mark its a more respectable and accurate market.

This was not ruined by the farmers, you are free to under cut them, at which point your item sells and not theirs, you make the money and not them, so you need to chill out and just enjoy the game.

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by fenistil

RMAH will make RMT much more common and because of it's avalibility and safety will increase overall RMT in games and I am against that. 

 ...

Why?   Isn't anyone that purchases/subsribes to a game already involved in RMT?

Nope. Pure B2P single player game / normal multiplayer or pure P2P mmo give you access to game and only that. 

RMT in multiplayer pvp or mmorpg games allow you to gain advantage because you spent more money. Also change game design / concept cause companies want to maximize CS / RMAH sales.

 

While I am not high-schooler anymore and I have to earn my own living - I am ok with gaining advantage in game through skill  or dedication or tactics, etc 

and not ok with gaining advantage though spending more $ on uber sword of awensomeness.

So is your problem with just game provided RMT (item shops, etc) or all forms of trade (player 2 player)?.  If player to player exchange can occur in the game, RMT will exist.  They only way to eliminate RMT (for in-game "stuff") is to make every single attainable item be bind-on-pickup, which would eliminate all trade in the game.   Even then there would still be RMT for "services" (boosting, powerlevelling, farming, etc)

OR, you could make the items in the game easily attainable......but that would completely wreck the premise of the game (and MOST modern MMORPGs) considering the game IS all about the gear (and percieved value of such)

 

Ultima Online (Pre-AoS) was the last MMO I've played where there wasn't a huge black market for RMT.  Gold & Items in game were common.....and a means to an end, which was experiencing the game's mechanics & content.  In gear focused games, gear IS the end.  A higher value is placed on the gear you're wearing than what you actually do in the game.  As a result, value for the gear goes up....creating an opportunity for very organized & efficient farming groups to fill a gap or un-met demand in the market.

It goes beyond this though. Its not just gear based games that suffer from a RMT black market. Look at GW1. Max stat gear was obtainable easily, literally given away by NPC's, and yet the game had armies of gold sellers and the like. People were buying and selling gold that had literally zero impact on game-play.

Originally posted by Badaboom

The AH wouldn't have the allure that it does if it wasn't for the stupid way Blizz has the loot drop.  What use is it if you are X level and you kill a boss with a bunch of loot that is dropped is X minus 8 levels.   Fricken rediculous.  The item dropped should be minimum your level with various chances of higher level drops.  I don't mind so much the randomness of everything else but that one thing really bugs me.

That would slightly improve the situation, but wouldn't solve the fundamental problem of a massively growing supply of items and a lack of items being removed from the economy.  But yeah, that should probably happen apart from AH improvements.

Another irritating part of loot is they don't balance for rate of collection.  Patch 1.03 will have iLevel 63 loot drop rates of 2% and 4% respectively in Acts 1 and 2, but that means if you can kill Act 1 mobs 2x as fast (or faster) than Act 2 that you'll actually earn more iLevel 63 stuff in Act 1 than if you tackled the more challenging act.  That's just bad challenge design :/

Originally posted by Mahavishnu

The best and only solution:

 

Create games without grind for gold and items!

 

 

Sometimes the solution to a big problem is so easy but it is like asking people to accept that our world is a sphere and not flat.

But that would remove the linear "carrot on a stick" that drives so many of the modern MMOs.  It's become the industry standard method for controling what users are doing in your game. 

If you want gamer "EpicTank" to move to Zone "x" at level 'x", then make gear slightly better than what EpicTank likely has available in Zone "x".....and on to the next zone, then next zone, then next zone.

It's like lazy man's social engineering for MMOs.

With that said (and to your point) old school Ultima Online was the last MMO I played where gold farmers didn't play a significant role in the game.  Gold was easy to come by and items were common place. (even the magic ones)

So instead of getting your account stolen by a third party company when purchasing an item/currency, you do it through Blizzard instead?

I'm not seeing a problem here.

Sounds like the typical Blizzard hate to me.

Originally posted by Dvalon

Most of the people here that have complained about the makret prices being so low so fast are just sick that they cant sell their items for insane money.

The market is no broken, its working as intended, you just being greedy trying to sell an item you never EVER technically own for hundreds of dollars, now with prices down around the 5-10 dollars mark its a more respectable and accurate market.

This was not ruined by the farmers, you are free to under cut them, at which point your item sells and not theirs, you make the money and not them, so you need to chill out and just enjoy the game.

Fair point, but with that...are you saying that Blizzard anticipated large numbers of China farmers to flood the market such that items become priced at what they intended? (respectable & more accurate as you put it)

Originally posted by Phry

i think you will find they had thought about those issues a good long time ago, hence the reason why D3 requires online connection to play, whether hackers can bypass this and still make use of the RMAH remains to be seen. But as has already been said, the biggest losers here are the businesses that operate to make a profit out of those kinds of things, when anyone can do it, there is more competition, and far less profit, so of course their members are probably going to QQ about it.. possibly on this forum too

I meant people getting their accounts hacked like what was happening a week or so ago.

Blizzard might be able to keep track of the individuals who hack into peoples' accounts and sell their items on the RMAH of whatever, but by the time the hack would be reported, investigated and the account reinstated, the hackers could earn real money at the expense of whoever they hacked.

Being online does not make the game any more secure for the user, and that is a real problem. I know they demanded that people use the authenticator, but it is still not 100% secure.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I still want to know how this RMT AH is making the game worst than when unoffical sites did the same thing?

 

 It makes it worse because now it's an integral part of the game, and as such, is highly accessible, highly accepted, and even encouraged.

I mean, if you want an analog, compare a legal drug like alcohol to an illegal drug like heroine.

Alcohol is extremely accepted in American society, even to the point of people who don't drink occasionally being ostracized.  It's also extremely accessible...there is usually at least one liquor store in every city block.  And society definitely encourages alcohol use through relentless advertisements.  As such, alcohol is very much a major part of American culture.

Now look at heroine...people who use it are generally called derogitory terms (junkies) and are seen as criminals and a drain on society.  In order to acquire heroine you need to risk your own personal safety by purchasing it from the criminal element.  And society actively discourages heroine use by putting users in jail.  As such, heroine is viewed as a "fringe" part of American culture.

You can apply this analogy to illegal vs. legal gold selling as well.

Very well said Creslin, I agree whole-heartedly with your entire post.  It turns something that should be frowned upon into something that is glorified.

It almost seems like Blizzard is slowly making it acceptable, then almost needed to have a real cash auction house in any game.  I will be curious to see if they start putting real cash auction houses in future online games of theirs, maybe even this new big project dubbed "Titan".

---

Originally posted by Paradigm68
Because of the AH and the RMAM and Blizz's desire to get people to use them, in game drops have been severely downgraded. Most items are 10 levels below my current level and factor in the random assignment of stats most of it is useless anyway so players go to the AH

---

Most item drops were far below your current level (actually, the level difference was usually greater in D2), and the random assignment of stats meant most of it was useless anyway.

That's how the Diablo slot-machine works. It's not new in D3 and it's nothing to do with any sinister AH conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by Sorrow

So to sum it up... I am a greedy SOB who planned to quit my job and just rip people off on Diablo 3 and these damn people that play more than me or have better luck than me are turning this in to a free market where competition keeps prices down... WAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Yup.

But also: having the option to buy the best stuff with a few bucks completely destroys the purpose of the game.

Even though you could do that in D2 but through illegal third party services, this was a big "no-no" for many people who prefered grinding themselves or trading with players and keep their characters "fair" and their computers safe.

Now that Blizzard sanctionized it, they considerably lowered the treshold for people to get the best stuff without an equivalent gameplay investment but a little cash instead.

I can't see the long term success of D3. Unless they'll add BOP stuff which can only be gained by playing the game.

This. 

I find it mindboggling that Blizzard and many Diablo "fans" (read: fanbois) do not understand that a RMAH completely undermines what the franchise is about.

I was a huge Diablo and Diablo 2 fan, playing both for years. However, I see no point in getting Diablo 3 since the RMAH renders the main goal of the game, getting good gear, meaningless.

Maybe if the game had the replayability of the second I would buy it just for gameplay's sake, but apparently the new skill/class system doesn't have anywhere close to the depth of it's predecesor. Not gonna waste $60 bucks for 20 hours of gameplay...

Originally posted by Dragim

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I still want to know how this RMT AH is making the game worst than when unoffical sites did the same thing?

 

 It makes it worse because now it's an integral part of the game, and as such, is highly accessible, highly accepted, and even encouraged.

I mean, if you want an analog, compare a legal drug like alcohol to an illegal drug like heroine.

Alcohol is extremely accepted in American society, even to the point of people who don't drink occasionally being ostracized.  It's also extremely accessible...there is usually at least one liquor store in every city block.  And society definitely encourages alcohol use through relentless advertisements.  As such, alcohol is very much a major part of American culture.

Now look at heroine...people who use it are generally called derogitory terms (junkies) and are seen as criminals and a drain on society.  In order to acquire heroine you need to risk your own personal safety by purchasing it from the criminal element.  And society actively discourages heroine use by putting users in jail.  As such, heroine is viewed as a "fringe" part of American culture.

You can apply this analogy to illegal vs. legal gold selling as well.

Very well said Creslin, I agree whole-heartedly with your entire post.  It turns something that should be frowned upon into something that is glorified.

It almost seems like Blizzard is slowly making it acceptable, then almost needed to have a real cash auction house in any game.  I will be curious to see if they start putting real cash auction houses in future online games of theirs, maybe even this new big project dubbed "Titan".

 

 Yep, I bet that pushing "renewable" RMT (like RMAH) is a huge goal of many big game companies.  And why not?  It's the gift that keeps on giving.

You literally have to do NOTHING to make money.  Players will just gleefully find items already in the game and then sell them to other players and you take a cut.  It's literally a money machine.  You put out your game, do nothing, profit.

I bet that Blizz looked at how long people played D2 and thought..."how can we capitalize off that?"  And the RMAH is really a perfect answer for them.

Personally, I hope the whole thing blows up in their faces.  I hope that gold farmers and over-zealous players continue to flood the market with supply and drop prices of top-tier items to under $3.  In the end, you will be able to get full end game gear for like $10 if this happens, and people who bought single items for $70 will be infuriated.  It will be beautiful.

And I am NOT a Blizzard hater btw.  I love Starcraft, D1, D2, and even WoW.  But this RMAH crap?  It's terrible.  D3 was designed to make the AH very attractive, and I think it really hurt the game.  If the RMAH is successful...then we can look forward to more and more NON-MMORPGs being designed to maximize residual profits, instead of being made to be an awesome game that you just want to buy.