Originally posted by Creslin321

You know, while reading over this thread, I started to realize something related to this topic that I think is really important.

The way the hearts system and the scout system works now, puts GW2 in danger of becoming "just another quest-hub" MMO to a very large amount of players.  And the reason for this is simple...human psychology.  If you provide a straight path that goes from point A to B, then most people are going to take it...even if there are countless other "curvy" paths from A to B...most people will take the path of least resistance.

So basically what I'm saying is that if you can get to max level by simply walking linearly through zones and doing hearts quests...many, many players will do this and then denounce GW2 as just another WoW clone, quest-hub MMO.

Now, thankfully, you cannot just progress linearly with the way GW2 is right now.  If you try to do this, your will be underleveled, and the game FORCES YOU to take one of the more "curvy" paths from point A to point B.  Whether you decide to craft, WvW, explore other zones, or even do DE's over and over...YOU are the one that chose that path, and I think this is important.  GW2 forces YOU to make a decision on how to level...it is not just spoon-fed, and really, spoon-feeding the players content is the essence of a linear quest-hub MMO.

But imagine if ANet did capitulate to the folks complaining about this and tweak exp gain so that you can just roll through all the heart quests in a zone, and the occasional DE, and then move on.  A VERY large percentage of players would probably do just this, because it's simply the easiest way to level, and the big shining hearts on their map tell them where to go.

These players would roll through the game, get level 80, and then quit...thinking the game was just another dull quest-hub MMO.  And honestly, I think this would be bad all-around.

i agree though i would say thats also the idea its to cater to how you want to play and if you want the easiest route then that works for you.but im guessing they made it that way to allow everyone to enjoy how they want and if ppl dont like it they will go as all mmo games are subject to.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by seridan

 

I think you personally have said these things to me about 10 times in this thread.

I'm done with you. If you want to just assume that I don't know what I'm doing, despite my repeated explanations that should make it more than obvious that I "get it," then I have no use for you. (Although I will add the clarification that I refer the a DE as a successful run through the chain of it, not every single variation of every DE).

Until you try to play the Charr zone ONLY with no crafting or gathering, then your elitist assumptions on my play style and what I didn't do are worthless.

Can you clarify what you mean by "charr zone only" since I played a charr guardian through to 14 just in the charr zone... Although I was gathering a bit... just copper though, as it is a GREAT way to make money. was selling them at average 30c each... Selling 30-50 at a time.

I was lvl 14 and hadn't even finished the majority of the charr 1-15 zone, imo. I mean, I hadn't even uncovered all of the map along the main roads and there is tons of exploration and stuff to do...

Originally posted by Mors-Subita

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by seridan

 

I think you personally have said these things to me about 10 times in this thread.

I'm done with you. If you want to just assume that I don't know what I'm doing, despite my repeated explanations that should make it more than obvious that I "get it," then I have no use for you. (Although I will add the clarification that I refer the a DE as a successful run through the chain of it, not every single variation of every DE).

Until you try to play the Charr zone ONLY with no crafting or gathering, then your elitist assumptions on my play style and what I didn't do are worthless.

Can you clarify what you mean by "charr zone only" since I played a charr guardian through to 14 just in the charr zone... Although I was gathering a bit... just copper though, as it is a GREAT way to make money. was selling them at average 30c each... Selling 30-50 at a time.

I was lvl 14 and hadn't even finished the majority of the charr 1-15 zone, imo. I mean, I hadn't even uncovered all of the map along the main roads and there is tons of exploration and stuff to do...

I'd love to find out what you did differently than me. I explored everything, getting 100% completion on the exploration thing in both ascalon and black citadel, I completed my entire personal storyline through level 20 ( I just revived NPCs over and over to beat the level 20 boss). And I dilligently expereinced every DE on, around, and on-route to every one of the exporation points.

To ensure I experienced the full DEs I did the following:

• I talked to every NPC I came across, as doing so often spawns DEs
• I followed the key NPCs after the DE was done to see what else they needed, as that often spawns new legs of a DE.
• If I failed a DE I would either follow the NPC back to wherever, or I would hang out in the area, killing mobs waiting for the chain to start again.
• I generally tried to get back in on DE's from the beginning if I had joined in what seemed like the middle, though I was not comprehensive in this.

• PvP
• Gathering
• Crafting
• Non-guided exploring, assuming this actually is a bonus exp rewarding thing. (I did this a bit, finding two underwater caves, but I did not get any bonus exp or renown from them.)
• Redoing DE's I'd already completed. There were a couple of exceptions, but for the most part if I saw that ghosts were attacking the same place I'd already saved, I did not join in on the quest.
• Killing my way from point to point. If I could go around mobs I would go around mobs.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Creslin321

 I honestly think that instead of trying to do "all the content" in a zone to level...players should just you know...play the game.  Do whatever they want.

That's the beauty of GW2.  You don't have to do A->B->C...the game world is fairly open to you.  If you find a DE that you really like, you can do it 12 times and still be rewarded!  On the other hand, if you get tired of one particular zone, you can just jump to another and dive right in without having to do some annoying quest chain.

There's only a problem with exp if there is so little content that you really have no choice in what to do when leveling (linear), or you have to repeat some content in order to level.  AoC, for example, had too little content at release...and SWTOR did arguably as well because you were basically forced into one linear path for a large part of the game.

GW2 isn't like this at all...you have SO MANY options of what you can do to level.  If you have a problem with it, it's only because you are trying to play the game in some particular way that you have decided is "right" and then find out that it doesn't work.

The game wasn't designed for you to just linearly roll through zones...it's designed to be explored and experienced.  If you are just trying to roll through "quest-hubs" ala WoW...then you are playing it wrong and depriving yourself from an experience you may actually really enjoy.

I agree entirely with every paragraph except the highlighted one.. I feel that I've done a lot of stuff that I enjoy doing, and make me feel alive and immersed in the world, and that it is not enough.

 

I think my main issue with a lot of the "extra stuff" that can be done comes down to narrative cohesiveness. Frankly, most people, including those for and against GW2's DE system, don't give a flying pig about this. So I know I'm in the minority here. However it's the main reason why I was so excited about the DE system, and the bredth of content. No longer am I forced to help every pathetic person you just wants me to do their chores for them. People who need help actually need help, etc. I absolutely love this stuff, but it's really rough on my experience when things break this narrative cohesiveness.

This is what I don't like about some of the things people have been saying should be done instead of "following the linear path" or whatever:

• Doing DE's over and over again. While GW2 does a decent job of having its NPCs explain why some of the content is repeatable, it's still very demoralizing to save a place, and 5 minutes later have to save it again and again. It makes me feel like I haven't actually accomplished what I worked for, and so I avoid these areas after I've set things right, (probably as much subconciously as intentionally).
• Going to other races starting areas. This could work if I felt any narrative reason to try and help other races. As it is, I don't. There's enough going on in my zones that I feel is more important to my character that I would feel like I'm betraying them if I were to go help a different zone out instead. This is 100000000000 times more true for humans going back to Ascalon to help the Charr desecrate their ancesotors. 
• Gathering and crafting. So I know this has been an MMO staple since UO started it, and I know that the sandbox crowd thinks it's absolutely necessary, but I flipping hate crafting. I hate that doing something so mundane in a world that I join in order to escape the mundanity of my own life. I think crafting is important, because a lot of people escape to these online worlds to try to feel like they are building and creating stuff. I get enough of that at home, and I dont' want more here. The point is it shouldn't be necessary. Although it's not really necessary in GW2, it's so lucrative in EXP that it's throwing everything off and giving people wildly varying experiences with "leveling speed". Want to have a slower leveling speed? DON'T CRAFT!
• PvP. There's a lot of potential here, but I just was not able to get into it. The rules for how PvP is set up seems a little archaic (though I didn't try last BWE), and again it is just not my tying my character's story into the PvP experience.

 

People on this site need to realize that giving narrative reasons why something should be done does not immediately result in leading a player by the nose.

 Well, I see what you're saying, and it is true that I basically "don't care" about narrative cohesiveness in an MMO.  IMO, story is basically bad for an MMO because it's a one-shot thing...and I include the GW2 personal story in this.

That said though, I understand I am not the only person in the universe, and I am not against catering to folks who may not like exactly what I like.

Anyway, I really think the best reason to your problem is, instead of upping exp rate, ANet can just give you a narrative reason to go to the other starter areas.  Just have a scout or other NPC that tells you how the Charr or whatever need help and ties it into the story of your area.  What woudl you think of this solution?

They will never be able to make it perfect for everyone. I had fun in the bwe's and didnt have a problem with the leveling speed so I would vote to keep as is. And that is my argument.. is it fun? Yes! ok, please dont change.

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

Originally posted by Sythion

• Doing DE's over and over again. While GW2 does a decent job of having its NPCs explain why some of the content is repeatable, it's still very demoralizing to save a place, and 5 minutes later have to save it again and again. It makes me feel like I haven't actually accomplished what I worked for, and so I avoid these areas after I've set things right, (probably as much subconciously as intentionally).

hmmm. this was only a "problem" on BW1 on  start zones. on BW1  lvl15+ zones  you didnt have any DE spam every 5m and on BW2 they reduce a lot the spam time of DE on start zones.

people complain DE are to quick and others to slow....well they need to say something bad about game

Maybe, but maybe is jsut the fine tuning not perfect yet.

DEs did reoccur too often in BWE1. It didn´t think it were to rare in BWE2 myself though, but it is possible that they were. Tuning stuff like this is after all one of the reasons you have betas and not everything becomes perfect after you change it one time.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Creslin321

 I honestly think that instead of trying to do "all the content" in a zone to level...players should just you know...play the game.  Do whatever they want.

That's the beauty of GW2.  You don't have to do A->B->C...the game world is fairly open to you.  If you find a DE that you really like, you can do it 12 times and still be rewarded!  On the other hand, if you get tired of one particular zone, you can just jump to another and dive right in without having to do some annoying quest chain.

There's only a problem with exp if there is so little content that you really have no choice in what to do when leveling (linear), or you have to repeat some content in order to level.  AoC, for example, had too little content at release...and SWTOR did arguably as well because you were basically forced into one linear path for a large part of the game.

GW2 isn't like this at all...you have SO MANY options of what you can do to level.  If you have a problem with it, it's only because you are trying to play the game in some particular way that you have decided is "right" and then find out that it doesn't work.

The game wasn't designed for you to just linearly roll through zones...it's designed to be explored and experienced.  If you are just trying to roll through "quest-hubs" ala WoW...then you are playing it wrong and depriving yourself from an experience you may actually really enjoy.

I agree entirely with every paragraph except the highlighted one.. I feel that I've done a lot of stuff that I enjoy doing, and make me feel alive and immersed in the world, and that it is not enough.

 

I think my main issue with a lot of the "extra stuff" that can be done comes down to narrative cohesiveness. Frankly, most people, including those for and against GW2's DE system, don't give a flying pig about this. So I know I'm in the minority here. However it's the main reason why I was so excited about the DE system, and the bredth of content. No longer am I forced to help every pathetic person you just wants me to do their chores for them. People who need help actually need help, etc. I absolutely love this stuff, but it's really rough on my experience when things break this narrative cohesiveness.

This is what I don't like about some of the things people have been saying should be done instead of "following the linear path" or whatever:

• Doing DE's over and over again. While GW2 does a decent job of having its NPCs explain why some of the content is repeatable, it's still very demoralizing to save a place, and 5 minutes later have to save it again and again. It makes me feel like I haven't actually accomplished what I worked for, and so I avoid these areas after I've set things right, (probably as much subconciously as intentionally).
• Going to other races starting areas. This could work if I felt any narrative reason to try and help other races. As it is, I don't. There's enough going on in my zones that I feel is more important to my character that I would feel like I'm betraying them if I were to go help a different zone out instead. This is 100000000000 times more true for humans going back to Ascalon to help the Charr desecrate their ancesotors. 
• Gathering and crafting. So I know this has been an MMO staple since UO started it, and I know that the sandbox crowd thinks it's absolutely necessary, but I flipping hate crafting. I hate that doing something so mundane in a world that I join in order to escape the mundanity of my own life. I think crafting is important, because a lot of people escape to these online worlds to try to feel like they are building and creating stuff. I get enough of that at home, and I dont' want more here. The point is it shouldn't be necessary. Although it's not really necessary in GW2, it's so lucrative in EXP that it's throwing everything off and giving people wildly varying experiences with "leveling speed". Want to have a slower leveling speed? DON'T CRAFT!
• PvP. There's a lot of potential here, but I just was not able to get into it. The rules for how PvP is set up seems a little archaic (though I didn't try last BWE), and again it is just not my tying my character's story into the PvP experience.

 

People on this site need to realize that giving narrative reasons why something should be done does not immediately result in leading a player by the nose.

just to add this:

[GW2] Unskinned “Fun”

Originally posted by Creslin321

 Well, I see what you're saying, and it is true that I basically "don't care" about narrative cohesiveness in an MMO.  IMO, story is basically bad for an MMO because it's a one-shot thing...and I include the GW2 personal story in this.

That said though, I understand I am not the only person in the universe, and I am not against catering to folks who may not like exactly what I like.

Anyway, I really think the best reason to your problem is, instead of upping exp rate, ANet can just give you a narrative reason to go to the other starter areas.  Just have a scout or other NPC that tells you how the Charr or whatever need help and ties it into the story of your area.  What woudl you think of this solution?

I think that's great, and I was implying that in my posts. Since that might come off a bit awkward, it might be better still to have a couple more DE's or Hearts in the zones.

As far as a one-shot narrative thing goes, I think that's a feeling that's reverberated from the entire industrying basically doing-it-wrong for 20+ years. We have this medium that allows players to be put into the shoes of protagonists, and then we tell players what their characters (them) do.

At its VERY best these linear, narrative heavy games take out the 'put you in the shoes of the protagonist' and just end up looking like a movie (and there are ways to improve this, such as giving actual choices and possibilities for failure, ala Heavy rain).

More often the result comes off feeling like a novel written entirely in second person by a nerdy high-school kid.

DE's are a step in the right direction towards making narrative non-linear, and I hope they are successful and that things progress further in that route.

Narrative doesn't have to be linear anymore than gameplay does.

Originally posted by Sythion

I'd love to find out what you did differently than me. I explored everything, getting 100% completion on the exploration thing in both ascalon and black citadel, I completed my entire personal storyline through level 20 ( I just revived NPCs over and over to beat the level 20 boss). And I dilligently expereinced every DE on, around, and on-route to every one of the exporation points.

To ensure I experienced the full DEs I did the following:

• I talked to every NPC I came across, as doing so often spawns DEs
• I followed the key NPCs after the DE was done to see what else they needed, as that often spawns new legs of a DE.
• If I failed a DE I would either follow the NPC back to wherever, or I would hang out in the area, killing mobs waiting for the chain to start again.
• I generally tried to get back in on DE's from the beginning if I had joined in what seemed like the middle, though I was not comprehensive in this.

 

Here's what I did not do:

• PvP
• Gathering
• Crafting
• Non-guided exploring, assuming this actually is a bonus exp rewarding thing. (I did this a bit, finding two underwater caves, but I did not get any bonus exp or renown from them.)
• Redoing DE's I'd already completed. There were a couple of exceptions, but for the most part if I saw that ghosts were attacking the same place I'd already saved, I did not join in on the quest.
• Killing my way from point to point. If I could go around mobs I would go around mobs.

 

So yeah, I'm not sure what the key ingredient is. I have been thinking its crafting, based off the ridiculous EXP it gives, but maybe it's something else.

 

Really I think that those defending the leveling speed here are either doing stuff that has unreasonably high EXP to Time ratios, or they are running around redoing stuff because it doesn't bother them to do the same DEs over and over (which is still much better than the mmo status quo).

I *think* I figured out what you might be lacking:

• Non-guided exploring, assuming this actually is a bonus exp rewarding thing. (I did this a bit, finding two underwater caves, but I did not get any bonus exp or renown from them.)

There are a ton of DEs/"Hidden Gems" off the "Main Path" including "Elite Encounters" "Jumping Puzzles" and full-blown Dynamic Events amongst others that you "missed out" on.

These things aren't necessarily near POIs, Skill Challenges, or any of the Hearts. You won't be guided to them in almost any way other than by seeking them out. Most importantly, I'd guess that anywhere from 30-40% of the PvE content (especially in higher level zones) is contained in these "Out of the Way" experiences.

Step off the beaten path... you never know just what kinds of adventures you might find!

Originally posted by Stx11

I *think* I figured out what you might be lacking:

Here's what I did not do:

• Non-guided exploring, assuming this actually is a bonus exp rewarding thing. (I did this a bit, finding two underwater caves, but I did not get any bonus exp or renown from them.)

There are a ton of DEs/"Hidden Gems" off the "Main Path" including "Elite Encounters" "Jumping Puzzles" and full-blown Dynamic Events amongst others that you "missed out" on.

These things aren't necessarily near POIs, Skill Challenges, or any of the Hearts. You won't be guided to them in almost any way other than by seeking them out. Most importantly, I'd guess that anywhere from 30-40% of the PvE content (especially in higher level zones) is contained in these "Out of the Way" experiences.

Step off the beaten path... you never know just what kinds of adventures you might find!

You may be right, but I'm going to assume you are either exaggerating or you are really bad with numbers. 30-40% is kind of a ridiculous figure to throw out, especially considering how much of the map is covered by hitting all PoIs and WPs.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Stx11

I *think* I figured out what you might be lacking:

Here's what I did not do:

• Non-guided exploring, assuming this actually is a bonus exp rewarding thing. (I did this a bit, finding two underwater caves, but I did not get any bonus exp or renown from them.)

There are a ton of DEs/"Hidden Gems" off the "Main Path" including "Elite Encounters" "Jumping Puzzles" and full-blown Dynamic Events amongst others that you "missed out" on.

These things aren't necessarily near POIs, Skill Challenges, or any of the Hearts. You won't be guided to them in almost any way other than by seeking them out. Most importantly, I'd guess that anywhere from 30-40% of the PvE content (especially in higher level zones) is contained in these "Out of the Way" experiences.

Step off the beaten path... you never know just what kinds of adventures you might find!

You may be right, but I'm going to assume you are either exaggerating or you are really bad with numbers. 30-40% is kind of a ridiculous figure to throw out, especially considering how much of the map is covered by hitting all PoIs and WPs.

Yes and no. You probably missed a lot of unique DEs by not doing any non-guided exploring. I'm not sure it explains the gaps in your respective levelling vs other players though. 

Mind you, I heard complaints from some people in Queensdale similar to yours and never could figue it out. I wonder if your level of participation, the number of people in the DE, etc has an impact on xp gain; in other words, being on a more (or less) populated server might make a difference. I hope that is not the case.

Originally posted by terrant

Mind you, I heard complaints from some people in Queensdale similar to yours and never could figue it out. I wonder if your level of participation, the number of people in the DE, etc has an impact on xp gain; in other words, being on a more (or less) populated server might make a difference. I hope that is not the case.

The level of participation has an impact on xp gain, gold, silver and bronze medals award different amounts of experience. I don't think server population has anything to do with xp gain though.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Stx11

...anywhere from 30-40% of the PvE content (especially in higher level zones) is contained in these "Out of the Way" experiences...

You may be right, but I'm going to assume you are either exaggerating or you are really bad with numbers. 30-40% is kind of a ridiculous figure to throw out, especially considering how much of the map is covered by hitting all PoIs and WPs.

The 30-40% was in reference to higher level zones. They have fewer Hearts as they ween you off of the "guided" experience.

Almost every cave or remote area I've explored in the game had something going on in it - whether it was a mini-boss guarding resources, a jumping puzzle, or a DE there was still content there. Just the path you can take to a location can greatly affect how much content you encounter and what you get out of the experience.

I have a Guildie that stuck to the roads and used Waypoints frequently when unlocked all while "rushing through" to try to get to the Personal Story instances as fast as possible. She had the same problem you did. Luckily she likes Crafting so that should address her issues.

If you were as "Completionist-focused" as you've posted, I wouldn't be surprised if just the experience from Gathering (not even Crafting/Refining) would be more than enough to cover your XP shortage, but if that's too "immersion-breaking" for you then all I can say is there's nothing wrong with a player preferring a structured approach to playing but it doesn't mean ANet "did it wrong" just that this might not be the right game for you.

Edit: Please remember, the *focus* of GW2 PvE is on Exploration and DEs, *not* the Personal Story, and the game's design reflects that.

Its certainly not slow and besides, whats the rush?  There's no monthly fee and no real POINT to being top level really fast.  What are people going to accomplish that doesn't completely reset itself every 2 weeks?  Its not like theres anything persistant to obtain before anyone.   And like others said, if you're underleveled you've obviously missed a bunch of things, so GO DO THEM.  

I don't think we should have to go to another races areas just to level up, but you do miss out on skill points if you don't.  Replay value is key in this respect.  its one of those great things WOW had.  Lots of different areas to level up in.

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