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General Discussion  » Can we all at least agree on one thing: Race-locked factions are terrible for ESO!

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64 posts found
  User Deleted
6/19/12 3:30:08 PM#41

The concept of eliminating the race lock can work out well but it can also work against the developers and the community.

The community can adapt in some cases and in others they might just fall apart.

TESO is a widely popular game and the online version could bring in a large number of currently non-mmo subscribers. The risk for an open world non-faction locked system is that it could drive many of the players away from the game instead of into it.

Some games can survive the open world non-faction locked style however in many cases the biggest and baddest guilds also take control of the game possibly leaving people in frustration or limbo depending on circumstances.

EVE is an example of this. When a large group of very powerful people decide to take control of the game and impose their will on others it can have a wide variety of effects.

Players know what they are getting into when they play EVE, I doubt that TESO would want to create that type of world, or risk that type of structure. TESO is designed to cast a big "net" and catch as many people as possible. Zenimax is not going to punch big holes in that net with more hardcore game mechanics.

I am not saying I agree with their choices as far as development mind you, I just understand that sales and subs are going to be the target here. These guys are thinking big numbers. Risk versus reward and all that fun stuff.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

6/19/12 4:13:56 PM#42
Originally posted by chefdiablo

The concept of eliminating the race lock can work out well but it can also work against the developers and the community.

The community can adapt in some cases and in others they might just fall apart.

TESO is a widely popular game and the online version could bring in a large number of currently non-mmo subscribers. The risk for an open world non-faction locked system is that it could drive many of the players away from the game instead of into it.

Some games can survive the open world non-faction locked style however in many cases the biggest and baddest guilds also take control of the game possibly leaving people in frustration or limbo depending on circumstances.

EVE is an example of this. When a large group of very powerful people decide to take control of the game and impose their will on others it can have a wide variety of effects.

Players know what they are getting into when they play EVE, I doubt that TESO would want to create that type of world, or risk that type of structure. TESO is designed to cast a big "net" and catch as many people as possible. Zenimax is not going to punch big holes in that net with more hardcore game mechanics.

I am not saying I agree with their choices as far as development mind you, I just understand that sales and subs are going to be the target here. These guys are thinking big numbers. Risk versus reward and all that fun stuff.

what needs to be considered is the type of players we are talking about here.

As a TES fan myself prior to me ever playing an MMO there were certian aspects of gaming I enjoyed and even expected that were born from the TES games and when my first MMO experience (EQ2) didnt match those expectations I left. When I found an MMO that was closer to what I would expect from a TES game (Darkfall) I ended up spending 12 times as much money in the long run.

In other words, as a TES fan prior to ever playing an MMO I expected to play a game like Darkfall not EQ2. TES fans do not need their hand held or a lollipop  a aftter a dental cleaning after a dental cleaning

Correlation does not imply causation

  slurry

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1

6/19/12 4:31:40 PM#43

Honestly, they could solve this whole problem like so...

 

Instead of the factions being race-based (Dunmer, Altmer, Argonian, etc), they make it territorial-based (Vvardenfell, Summerset Isle, Black Marsh). Because really, it's not like Vvardenfell is strictly limited to Dunmer. All races are there. Create any race and select your starting territory, and poof, you have a solution.

  jiveturkey12

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/04
Posts: 1284

 
OP  6/19/12 4:50:26 PM#44

Originally posted by Entinerint

The fanbase of DAOC is vastly dwarfed by the fanbase of TES, so how do the wants of these few supercede the desires of the many who have been waiting for their TES to become an MMORPG in the spirit of TES? 

If the DAOC IP isn't enough to garner investment on the grand scale needed to produce a modern MMORPG, then that is its own fault.  DAOC still exists and is playable, there are even classic servers which have the original, more balanced gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbZnI7vTugA

Go play it!  Leave TES to be TES. 

So a few DAOC fans who wanted a prettier DAOC and weren't satisfied with WAR get what they wanted while millions (yes millions) of TES fans (The people who made TES what it is by buying the games in droves) get fucked over in the process.  Sounds fair.

Thank you for this post, I completely agree with you. Its not like DAOC was a bad game, I played it at a friends house a few times, but mostly would just have alot of fun watching him PVP in DAOC and Planetside an other games because I wasnt as profficent at PVP at that time (I was much younger and was just getting into PVPing in MMO's).

But the fact of the matter is this game SHOULDNT be DAOC 2, yes I know its already way into development and we cant change that but at least people should be able to see the point that the game SHOULD have taken ES mechanics and made it into a game and not DAOC mechanics, because now we have millions of people who wont be playing the game simply because it doesnt fit into any category of the original series.

And how is that good marketing or good business? How is that positive for the industry if a gaming company is so out of touch with the fans that they cant have ONE feature on a MULTIMILLION DOLLAR MMO that appeals to any of the core audience of the franchise they are making the game for??

Because again they arent making the game for ES fans, they are making it to capitlize on the themepark market, which isnt going to work because as weve already seen TOR failed, and WAR, and every other major themepark POST-WoW.

NO ONE WINS YOU GUYS! DAOC PVP fans wont have enough people post-launch to play with because content simply wont be there to keep other PVE players involved, RP fans are going to have a hard enough time with the LORE being ravaged by Zenimax, and ES fans wont play the game AT ALL because its nothing like the games they love or the ES MMO they wanted.

  User Deleted
6/19/12 10:33:04 PM#45


Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by chefdiablo The concept of eliminating the race lock can work out well but it can also work against the developers and the community. The community can adapt in some cases and in others they might just fall apart. TESO is a widely popular game and the online version could bring in a large number of currently non-mmo subscribers. The risk for an open world non-faction locked system is that it could drive many of the players away from the game instead of into it. Some games can survive the open world non-faction locked style however in many cases the biggest and baddest guilds also take control of the game possibly leaving people in frustration or limbo depending on circumstances. EVE is an example of this. When a large group of very powerful people decide to take control of the game and impose their will on others it can have a wide variety of effects. Players know what they are getting into when they play EVE, I doubt that TESO would want to create that type of world, or risk that type of structure. TESO is designed to cast a big "net" and catch as many people as possible. Zenimax is not going to punch big holes in that net with more hardcore game mechanics. I am not saying I agree with their choices as far as development mind you, I just understand that sales and subs are going to be the target here. These guys are thinking big numbers. Risk versus reward and all that fun stuff.
what needs to be considered is the type of players we are talking about here.

As a TES fan myself prior to me ever playing an MMO there were certian aspects of gaming I enjoyed and even expected that were born from the TES games and when my first MMO experience (EQ2) didnt match those expectations I left. When I found an MMO that was closer to what I would expect from a TES game (Darkfall) I ended up spending 12 times as much money in the long run.

In other words, as a TES fan prior to ever playing an MMO I expected to play a game like Darkfall not EQ2. TES fans do not need their hand held or a lollipop  a aftter a dental cleaning after a dental cleaning



I understand your wants and needs. The real problem is that developers see more money being made by appealing to a majority instead of a minority.

These people are making games that are going to attract as many people as possible. The developers are not as oblivious as everyone assumes. They know all about your favorite games, but sadly they are not chasing your money. They are chasing the people that are playing mainstream games mindlessly spending money every month and logging in for a few hours a week.

The biggest games in the industry are populated by average people. They don't hang out on MMO forums, or even on the forums of their favorite games. They hang out in their games on Vent or Teamspeak doing what they enjoy. They might go try a new game now and then but they almost always go right back to whatever game they have established themselves in because it is safe, easy, and they are comfortable and well known.

SWTOR was never designed for hardcore MMO gamers. It was designed for more casual and social players. Why? They spend money happily for months without freaking out about game features and changes. They don't run to internet forums complaining about things. They just play.

8 months ago most of my friends were juiced about SWTOR. They were convinced it was going to be the next WOW. Release arrived. They logged in everyday raving about how great everything was. I bought the game and leveled to 50 in about 2 weeks and thought to myself "Meh, it's okay, not much for me to do. I like deep pvp." Not long after they all bailed out of SWTOR citing poor endgame, not much to do etc. A couple went to TERA for a few weeks. Now they are back in WOW threatening to send me a resurrection scroll.

What is the point? Bioware, although new to the MMO market, went fishing and caught all of us. They are just bad at fishing though, they let us all get away. Will Zenimax be better? Who knows? Doubtful, but they are still going to try and people will still take the bait.

The features you like are just not as appealing to as many people as the developers would like. You can try to convince yourself otherwise but it will be in vain. Blizzard does not maintain such high numbers by making their game fit your like list. They keep a majority of their players happy and refresh the game after each expansion.

Does it suck to be outside of the target market? Yes. Not much we can do about it though. We are too few to make a difference.

BTW SWTOR will not be the game to show developers of what not to do, the bloated development cost will overshadow all of the real issues in the boardroom. Those guys just see numbers, not players.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

6/20/12 10:45:36 AM#46
Originally posted by chefdiablo

 


Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by chefdiablo The concept of eliminating the race lock can work out well but it can also work against the developers and the community. The community can adapt in some cases and in others they might just fall apart. TESO is a widely popular game and the online version could bring in a large number of currently non-mmo subscribers. The risk for an open world non-faction locked system is that it could drive many of the players away from the game instead of into it. Some games can survive the open world non-faction locked style however in many cases the biggest and baddest guilds also take control of the game possibly leaving people in frustration or limbo depending on circumstances. EVE is an example of this. When a large group of very powerful people decide to take control of the game and impose their will on others it can have a wide variety of effects. Players know what they are getting into when they play EVE, I doubt that TESO would want to create that type of world, or risk that type of structure. TESO is designed to cast a big "net" and catch as many people as possible. Zenimax is not going to punch big holes in that net with more hardcore game mechanics. I am not saying I agree with their choices as far as development mind you, I just understand that sales and subs are going to be the target here. These guys are thinking big numbers. Risk versus reward and all that fun stuff.
what needs to be considered is the type of players we are talking about here.

 

As a TES fan myself prior to me ever playing an MMO there were certian aspects of gaming I enjoyed and even expected that were born from the TES games and when my first MMO experience (EQ2) didnt match those expectations I left. When I found an MMO that was closer to what I would expect from a TES game (Darkfall) I ended up spending 12 times as much money in the long run.

In other words, as a TES fan prior to ever playing an MMO I expected to play a game like Darkfall not EQ2. TES fans do not need their hand held or a lollipop  a aftter a dental cleaning after a dental cleaning


 


I understand your wants and needs. The real problem is that developers see more money being made by appealing to a majority instead of a minority.

I was replying to the point that specifically TES players would have an issue, not the greater majority. I am a perfect example of a TES single player gamer who when coming to the MMO for the first time expected a game more like TES not a hand holding gaming to get me used to MMO as was suggested.

Your current answer is a good answer, its just not related to what we were talking about.

Correlation does not imply causation

  User Deleted
6/20/12 9:26:50 PM#47


Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by chefdiablo  

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by chefdiablo The concept of eliminating the race lock can work out well but it can also work against the developers and the community. The community can adapt in some cases and in others they might just fall apart. TESO is a widely popular game and the online version could bring in a large number of currently non-mmo subscribers. The risk for an open world non-faction locked system is that it could drive many of the players away from the game instead of into it. Some games can survive the open world non-faction locked style however in many cases the biggest and baddest guilds also take control of the game possibly leaving people in frustration or limbo depending on circumstances. EVE is an example of this. When a large group of very powerful people decide to take control of the game and impose their will on others it can have a wide variety of effects. Players know what they are getting into when they play EVE, I doubt that TESO would want to create that type of world, or risk that type of structure. TESO is designed to cast a big "net" and catch as many people as possible. Zenimax is not going to punch big holes in that net with more hardcore game mechanics. I am not saying I agree with their choices as far as development mind you, I just understand that sales and subs are going to be the target here. These guys are thinking big numbers. Risk versus reward and all that fun stuff.
what needs to be considered is the type of players we are talking about here.   As a TES fan myself prior to me ever playing an MMO there were certian aspects of gaming I enjoyed and even expected that were born from the TES games and when my first MMO experience (EQ2) didnt match those expectations I left. When I found an MMO that was closer to what I would expect from a TES game (Darkfall) I ended up spending 12 times as much money in the long run. In other words, as a TES fan prior to ever playing an MMO I expected to play a game like Darkfall not EQ2. TES fans do not need their hand held or a lollipop  a aftter a dental cleaning after a dental cleaning
  I understand your wants and needs. The real problem is that developers see more money being made by appealing to a majority instead of a minority.
I was replying to the point that specifically TES players would have an issue, not the greater majority. I am a perfect example of a TES single player gamer who when coming to the MMO for the first time expected a game more like TES not a hand holding gaming to get me used to MMO as was suggested.

Your current answer is a good answer, its just not related to what we were talking about.


You are responding with your own disappointments and projecting your expectations. Just because you played an Elder Scrolls game does not mean that you should ever expect an MMO to be like that. You assume too much.
Agree or not, TES players could buy TESO and end up very disappointed. Zenimax knows this. They have weighed the argument and made their decisions. The game is not going to be same style of game that those players know and love. It sucks. Argue about it here all you want. It will not be changed prior to release. The success of the game might very well be in the toilet already. It does not matter. Zenimax is going to release this game the way they want to and it will be done with the casual players in mind. You might as well get over it, or you could spend the next year or so moaning on these, and perhaps other forums, of how horrible this game will be, but it sure seems like a gigantic waste of time. Banging your head against the wall does not drive home the point...it leads to concussions.

  Vonatar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 581

6/21/12 3:24:11 AM#48

Yes, but the problem is that no one seems to want to grab Matt Firor and shake him while screaming in his face "This is not Dark Age of Tamriel!!!".

Race locked factions is just such a dumb idea in an Elder Scrolls setting especially the geographical restrictions that result. As a long time player of the series since Daggerfall I would imagine what I want from TESO is similar to other fans - the ability to roam and explore the whole of Tamriel. In one game. I don't want to roll a Nord and have some arbitrary game design decision tell me I can't go to High Rock because it doesn't fit the DAoC reboot that this game is trying to be.

Not to mention all the lore problems it creates. Seriously, Khajiit being such passionate members of the Aldmeri Dominion when the reality is more likely that they are a client state against their will? This is what you're doing Mr Firor, while driving your DAoC 16-wheeler through my much loved game setting.

I don't often make emotional posts. But this one comes because I was reading the TESO preview in the latest edition of Edge, and was quite liking it (no quest hubs, open dungeons, training up weapon skills, active dodging etc). Then the geographical restrictions became apparent and, well, it upset me that ZeniMax and Bethesda would actually do something so contrary to the whole nature of Elder Scrolls.

Oh well, they won't be getting my money.

  Kothoses

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/10
Posts: 686

6/21/12 3:30:55 AM#49
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by Ikeda
Originally posted by Betaguy

This is the way it should be and thank thee lord it is being done this way.  Once again another reason why this game will stand out above all the others.

Yea, best at being the worst.  I can see the razzies drooling right now.

Atleast TOR had the storyline going for it.  When they've screwed these factions as bad as they did. 

Again, like another person mentioned.  Why not have 3 factions but allow a person to join them at say 20-30.  Then make it permanent at say 60-70.

Example, group a loves the gods, group b hates the gods, group c thinks gods exist to serve people.  All races can join whichever they want but each race has a tendancy.  You get introduced into the factions early on and then you choose.  You become a choir boy or page or the like.  As you do missions, you earn factions and gain rank.  You also get to feel the FLAVOR of the faction.  By late game, you have to lock in to a certain faction (this prevents people from jumping factions at end-game).

I stopped taking anything you said seriously after you referenced TOR in this thread..

This is how you debate and discuss issues people! give this man a standing ovation.

 

Seriously, you hipsters need to get off the hating bandwagon and start looking beyond the name dropping.  He actually makes a good point but once again the usual "stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la because he mentioned a game you dont like" brigade are out in force.

Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  Kothoses

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/10
Posts: 686

6/21/12 3:35:04 AM#50

The biggest uphill struggle TESO faces is simply winning over fans of a single player sandbox game with what is essentially a tri-faction themepark.

 

No matter what they do, the people that wanted Skyrim or Oblivion online will hate them at this point, I actually saw one person complain that Skyrims COMBAT was not going to be in the game. 

 

IF there is one thing I am grateful for its that the Skyrim combat wont be there... however, that is the sum total of the list for me.

 

I will be trying the game, but I do not hold high hopes for it bringing too much new to the MMO themepark Genre, however, since I still enjoy themepark MMOs this doesnt worry me too much.

 

Locked races however does seem very odd and the more I read of it the more this does seem to be a DAOC reboot with a Tamariel skin.

Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  User Deleted
6/21/12 9:49:43 AM#51

The single player crowd are going to face other issues too. Some are minor and others not so.

They won't be able to pause the game mid combat and switch weapons and gear either.

They won't be able to add mods that give them every piece of gear, book, or crafting material.

They won't be able to save the game and redo a quest line or failure.

I bet there are plenty of other things those single player fans will not have but really, really, miss.

Everyone says they want open world MMOs and they think that open world pvp will be glorious but I also know that the game would suffer for it.

There are very few completely open world pvp, fully explorable MMOs out there for a reason. When they do exist sooner or later a few safe zones get added.

I would actually enjoy the game if it had those features, but I know many people that would get ganked a few too many times and find the exit right quick.

Open world pvp without Race locks usually leads to a handful of powerful guilds controlling a server and rest of the population suffering for it or hiding out in cities.

Zenimax is taking the safe bet here folks. Disappointment all around. I agree.

Under populated factions will cry and quit a game more often than not. Alliances could be a good structure, but at the same time I am not too sure how well Zenimax is going to be at building this game. Some companies do not have great records with their first release in the MMO market.

Perhaps playing it safe the first time around is a good choice. It might not be what TES player expect, but if it at least works well it could lead to better things.

Better to make a good solid working game than make a dysfunctional game with things that do not work a la SWTORs Ilum pvp map. I look back at other games and remember what the tried to do and failed at.

Does race lock suck? Yes in some ways. Will it be game breaking for me? Nope. Unbalanced pvp would be, or broken quests, or buggy mechanics. Those a game breakers in my eyes.

At least let them release the game before we chew it up and spit it out. The Chef is not done cooking yet and people are already complaining about how the food tastes.

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

6/21/12 9:56:58 AM#52
Originally posted by chefdiablo

The single player crowd are going to face other issues too. Some are minor and others not so.

They won't be able to pause the game mid combat and switch weapons and gear either.

They won't be able to add mods that give them every piece of gear, book, or crafting material.

They won't be able to save the game and redo a quest line or failure.

I bet there are plenty of other things those single player fans will not have but really, really, miss.

Everyone says they want open world MMOs and they think that open world pvp will be glorious but I also know that the game would suffer for it.

There are very few completely open world pvp, fully explorable MMOs out there for a reason. When they do exist sooner or later a few safe zones get added.

I would actually enjoy the game if it had those features, but I know many people that would get ganked a few too many times and find the exit right quick.

Open world pvp without Race locks usually leads to a handful of powerful guilds controlling a server and rest of the population suffering for it or hiding out in cities.

Zenimax is taking the safe bet here folks. Disappointment all around. I agree.

Under populated factions will cry and quit a game more often than not. Alliances could be a good structure, but at the same time I am not too sure how well Zenimax is going to be at building this game. Some companies do not have great records with their first release in the MMO market.

Perhaps playing it safe the first time around is a good choice. It might not be what TES player expect, but if it at least works well it could lead to better things.

Better to make a good solid working game than make a dysfunctional game with things that do not work a la SWTORs Ilum pvp map. I look back at other games and remember what the tried to do and failed at.

Does race lock suck? Yes in some ways. Will it be game breaking for me? Nope. Unbalanced pvp would be, or broken quests, or buggy mechanics. Those a game breakers in my eyes.

At least let them release the game before we chew it up and spit it out. The Chef is not done cooking yet and people are already complaining about how the food tastes.

The problem is, the "Chefs" have told us what they are making and listed some of the ingredients and frankly it just doesnt sound appetizing

 

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

6/21/12 10:09:16 AM#53
Originally posted by chefdiablo

 


Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by chefdiablo  

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by chefdiablo The concept of eliminating the race lock can work out well but it can also work against the developers and the community. The community can adapt in some cases and in others they might just fall apart. TESO is a widely popular game and the online version could bring in a large number of currently non-mmo subscribers. The risk for an open world non-faction locked system is that it could drive many of the players away from the game instead of into it. Some games can survive the open world non-faction locked style however in many cases the biggest and baddest guilds also take control of the game possibly leaving people in frustration or limbo depending on circumstances. EVE is an example of this. When a large group of very powerful people decide to take control of the game and impose their will on others it can have a wide variety of effects. Players know what they are getting into when they play EVE, I doubt that TESO would want to create that type of world, or risk that type of structure. TESO is designed to cast a big "net" and catch as many people as possible. Zenimax is not going to punch big holes in that net with more hardcore game mechanics. I am not saying I agree with their choices as far as development mind you, I just understand that sales and subs are going to be the target here. These guys are thinking big numbers. Risk versus reward and all that fun stuff.
what needs to be considered is the type of players we are talking about here.   As a TES fan myself prior to me ever playing an MMO there were certian aspects of gaming I enjoyed and even expected that were born from the TES games and when my first MMO experience (EQ2) didnt match those expectations I left. When I found an MMO that was closer to what I would expect from a TES game (Darkfall) I ended up spending 12 times as much money in the long run. In other words, as a TES fan prior to ever playing an MMO I expected to play a game like Darkfall not EQ2. TES fans do not need their hand held or a lollipop  a aftter a dental cleaning after a dental cleaning
  I understand your wants and needs. The real problem is that developers see more money being made by appealing to a majority instead of a minority.
I was replying to the point that specifically TES players would have an issue, not the greater majority. I am a perfect example of a TES single player gamer who when coming to the MMO for the first time expected a game more like TES not a hand holding gaming to get me used to MMO as was suggested.

 

Your current answer is a good answer, its just not related to what we were talking about.


 

You are responding with your own disappointments and projecting your expectations. Just because you played an Elder Scrolls game does not mean that you should ever expect an MMO to be like that. You assume too much.
Agree or not, TES players could buy TESO and end up very disappointed. Zenimax knows this. They have weighed the argument and made their decisions. The game is not going to be same style of game that those players know and love. It sucks. Argue about it here all you want. It will not be changed prior to release. The success of the game might very well be in the toilet already. It does not matter. Zenimax is going to release this game the way they want to and it will be done with the casual players in mind. You might as well get over it, or you could spend the next year or so moaning on these, and perhaps other forums, of how horrible this game will be, but it sure seems like a gigantic waste of time. Banging your head against the wall does not drive home the point...it leads to concussions.

No, let me help you with how the conversation went.

'They want to make the game easy for existing TES players to enter into the MMO world' (what that statement means is that you are addressing specifically TES players who havent played MMOs. You are not addressing the greater gaming population, gamers who have MMO experience, or even gamers who are not TES fans. Your statement was very specific and targeted. I responed to that exact statement, not something else)

My response:

'I was a TES player who had no MMO experience and I what I ended up spending the most money on fairly quickly was an MMO that represented more like TES rather than an MMO that helped me get used to MMOs'

 

I hope this clears things up.

ADDED: I find it intresting that someone suggests a very specific demographic (TES fans without MMO experience) suggests a behavior based on nothing more then assumption and then when the only person  matches the exact demographic with actions that ended up contradicting  those assumptions then it is discarged. If that is not a bias I dont know what is.

Correlation does not imply causation

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

6/21/12 8:27:31 PM#54
Originally posted by Dalmont

Oh god does it really matter?

 

Not seen a valid reason why not yet. Also in regards to racism....this is a game where there is fundermental racism as each race actually does have negative or positive traints and works well with certain groups.

 

Standard forum rubbish here, moaning about 3 faction system when people usually want 3 faction systems, moaning about restrictions when people moan about no restrictions....blah blah blah.

 

I will say, its not elder scrolls if you can't be any faction, but its better for MMO's and people who haven't played the series, like you know, casual players :P

Good job completely missing the point.

The issue isn't with "3 faction" play.  The issue is with the racial restrictions into it, that have absolutely nothing to do with the lore.  Not to mention no understanding of the franchise.  Simply put, Ebonheart is going to have MASSIVE numbers advantages.  The nords have almost always dominated Tamriel in one way or another throughout the ages.  The dunmer (dark elves) had an Elder Scrolls game dedicated to them with some of the most intriguing characters (Vivec is still one of the great enigmas in the series) and the Argonians, a visually distinct race that is sure to attract people.

The Dominion has two races which will look strikingly similar, and cats.

There were about a thousand other ways they could do this and still maintain three factions.  I have no problem with that.  3 factions fighting for power in a vacuum with distinct beliefs and MO's.  That isn't what we have here.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

6/21/12 8:40:01 PM#55
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by chefdiablo

The single player crowd are going to face other issues too. Some are minor and others not so.

They won't be able to pause the game mid combat and switch weapons and gear either.

They won't be able to add mods that give them every piece of gear, book, or crafting material.

The problem is, the "Chefs" have told us what they are making and listed some of the ingredients and frankly it just doesnt sound appetizing

 

Pretty much.  On certain points, we don't need to speculate or adopt a "wait and see" approach.  We know what is coming, we don't like it, we are going to say so.

Honestly, what they should've done was make a player based faction that the Akaviri sent to try and re-take the throne.  Then you have the "Imperial" people wanting to build their own empire, and then a high king/Jarl over in Skyrim re-launching traditional Nord aggression.  Yet even there, not all Nords would back him.  So they play politics and build things the way they can.

So then factions become interest-based, not racial based.  Even have special events where one of the lead factions "elite" gaurds launch operations against each other.

  DaezAster

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/12
Posts: 790

6/21/12 9:16:42 PM#56

It's a cool concept but only imposes limitations on player choice. Like the trinity it will have players trying to convince others to be races they dont want to be out of there own interest. Example= I play as a dark elf and have been for some time, a friend wants to start playing. We want to play together but they want to be kahjit. Well now I have to sell them on a different race so we can play together. This is just bad game design.

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1133

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

6/21/12 9:40:50 PM#57
Originally posted by jiveturkey12
I mean everyone on each side of the ESO discussion has something to lose. The Hardcore ES fans lose continuity lore wise and are given a major restriction that was never present in any other ES game... And the theme-park crowd are just given a major balance problem long term when everyone joins the faction with dark elves and nord in it. I mean whose going to want to be on the khajit-high elf-wood elf faction? It just seems a little weak compared to the others. Plus wouldn't you all love to see each race able to fight along side each other? Surely it would look a lot more badass than being limited content wise to only fighting with two other races per faction. Anyone else in the same boat as me with this? That both sides have something to lose by there being such a rediculous restriction like they've presented.

I actually feel bad for the OP and those that agree with this.  My reasoning is that the mmorpg genre has been fed nonsense for quite  a while, and now they are beginning to be as lackluster in imagination as the corporate clones that are feeding them what they call MMORPGS and instead deliver as games like SW:ToR, and so forth.

 

Examples of mediocrity are Tauren Paladins, Necromancers who can run freely through Cimmeria, one playable faction that matters in LOTRO, merc system in Rift so that instanced pvp queues can be quicker.  The list of broken lore, and mmorpgs turning into just video games is endless.

 

You are frustrated with the uniqueness of having a true side?  Having the true feeling of us vs them? 

 

You must have no idea apparently, how bad ass it is to feel pride for your race, your faction, knowing full well that other factions exist that are *(gulp) different from yours. It gets pretty darn epic, let me tell you, when you get to look at an opposing culture and truly see them as different.  This takes the vanilla out of pvp in a heartbeat. 

 

Practically every mmorpg has the same races and classes beating each other down.  You can find this mediocrity ad naseum, everywhere, it's ubiquitous!

 

ESO, built on the Dark Age of Camelot model thanks to the direction of Matt Firor, will be immediately set apart from the industry that presently exists, solely because of a three realm model. Granted, there's a lot more to the title than just the three realms, for example, different races per realm, which is something that the industry cannot even contemplate.  I understand why this is the case, because the industry is built by corporate folks and computer programmers, both of which apparently know very little of history.

 

 As in real warfare, not everyone just joins up randomly to beats down people with red names.  While this does occur in some fashion, i.e., civil wars, government takeovers, and so forth, ESO, like Dark Age, is built with a grand scale theme in mind.  Look at A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones and so forth).  You have factions all over within factions.  The Drak Horsemen are separated, the Seven Kingdoms is basically in total civil war, the northern ghouls have brought the winter with them to the wall...but when you look at it, The Seven Kingdoms will be at war with the Drak, at war with the Ghouls of the north, and right there you have three potential factions. 

 

So while ESO will have factions, and unique races and classes, instead of trying to beat such unique decision making into the ground, why not support the title, and learn as to why it's so damned brilliant to get to fight for a side that is different from everyone else.

 

For God's sakes, if the mmorpg industry had control over Lord of the Rings movies, the Hobbits would never have left the Shire before being PK'd by other Hobbits.  The Elves would be with the Orcs so that they could hunt down more Elves.  I mean seriously, this isn't epic thinking, it's gang bangery. 

 

Folks have been fed MMO for so long, they've simply forgotten or never experience the RPG side of it.  Role Playing Game - playing one's role is best portrayed when you feel a sense of duty to your realm, to your king, and to your people.  To this day, the Irish see the English as slave lords.  Albanian Christians loathe Albanian Muslims, and Tibetan monks are being persecuted by the Communist Chinese.  The world is filled with factions.

 

If you want an mmorpg where anyone can join anyone, there is no honor, no concept of loyalty to a flag, and every race beats itself down, just turn on the news.  Here in Chicago, where I live, there's an endless supply of such nonsense.  Meanwhile, for my online escapism, I'm going for the title that's epic.  Races and cultures rising up under different gods, flags, and territories - waging war upon one another.  Now that's history - that's reality, and that's damned good quality mmo R P G gaming, in my book.  Let the rest of the mmorpgs have their instanced flag capture pvp where races and classes are nothing but plastic cosmetic, and childishly similar.

 

I'm waiting for ESO, factions and all.

 

/my 2 cents

 

 That is fine for a simplistic approach to pvp, popular in games like SW:ToR, and Rift, and GW2.  So why pick on the ESO model when there is so much out there to meet the standards of the folks complaining?  Secondly, don't be surprised if one server is totally free for all.  Matt Firor was there when DAoC got off the ground, he's aware that there is an audience that has different needs.  I have a feeling that the OP's server will be available as well. 

 

However, for once since Dark Age of Camelot was swept under a rug by EA, gamers who expect more history, more depth, more plausible RP from their mmorpg are finally...getting...an mmorpg.

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/22/12 5:20:41 AM#58
Originally posted by Comaf

However, for once since Dark Age of Camelot was swept under a rug by EA, gamers who expect more history, more depth, more plausible RP from their mmorpg are finally...getting...an mmorpg.

You forgot that this is at the expense of arguably the largest fantasy franchise in gaming today.  TES sales dwarf Final Fantasy, Lord of the Rings and even World of Warcraft and Diablo.

So a tiny amount of people who were fans of DAOC get to have their cake and eat it too while the rest of us, the millions of TES fans included, just get a massive shit sandwich.

Sounds fair.

If you want RvRvR play DAOC, it's still around, if you want DAOC 2, maybe someone should make that.  Oh wait, it's not popular enough to get funding so Matt Firor has to utterly connibalize the potential for a TES MMO so he can make a prettier retread of a 10 year old game that was mediocre at best and had one interesting feature.

I hope all 500 or so DAOC fans who have been holding out for DAOC 2 will have fun trampling all over Tamriel not knowing shit about the world or the lore or the history, just getting to PWN each other in LEET 3-faction PVP OMGzors.

It's cartoony, it's care-bear, and above all it is not TES.

  jiveturkey12

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/04
Posts: 1284

 
OP  6/22/12 3:04:20 PM#59
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by jiveturkey12
I mean everyone on each side of the ESO discussion has something to lose. The Hardcore ES fans lose continuity lore wise and are given a major restriction that was never present in any other ES game... And the theme-park crowd are just given a major balance problem long term when everyone joins the faction with dark elves and nord in it. I mean whose going to want to be on the khajit-high elf-wood elf faction? It just seems a little weak compared to the others. Plus wouldn't you all love to see each race able to fight along side each other? Surely it would look a lot more badass than being limited content wise to only fighting with two other races per faction. Anyone else in the same boat as me with this? That both sides have something to lose by there being such a rediculous restriction like they've presented.

If you want an mmorpg where anyone can join anyone, there is no honor, no concept of loyalty to a flag, and every race beats itself down, just turn on the news.  Here in Chicago, where I live, there's an endless supply of such nonsense.  Meanwhile, for my online escapism, I'm going for the title that's epic.  Races and cultures rising up under different gods, flags, and territories - waging war upon one another.  Now that's history - that's reality, and that's damned good quality mmo R P G gaming, in my book.  Let the rest of the mmorpgs have their instanced flag capture pvp where races and classes are nothing but plastic cosmetic, and childishly similar.

In Response to the Red

So...if I want an MMO where different races are in conflict with each other I should "turn on the news"? Im sorry am I missing something here?

If Im trying to understand your point, which you honestly did a very poor job of articulating. Your saying you need Race-Lock Factions because people need to be told why each race individually is in conflict with each other? But why? Why cant you just have Factions with strong lore surrounding each and let the player decide which Faction sounds more appealing? Why do you need "Factions Defined by Races", instead of a Faction defining themselves? Shouldnt we have honor for the cause of each faction rather than the races of each cause? It just seems very dissconnected in your view. And how do you justify taking away the Lore of the previous games to fit this model? Thats what Im saying its too much work for nothing, just to make the game simplier so people donthave to think as hard. Is that what we honestly need another game thats devoid of actual inelligent choices?

 

In response to the Yellow

"Thats reality" I find it funny tht again you contradict yourself by saying you want something true to real life when in referance to Race-lockd factions, but earlier you said other races beating each other down was too much like real life "Just turn on the news" and you didnt like it for that reason?? Doesnt that seema bit one-sided??

 

In Response to the Blue

Im sorry but this one is the killer for me. The game itself isnt the "most childish" game ive ever seen, but it is defiently not Mature in anyway. Just look at the picture of the Elf chick talking to the Over-sized Football Player Orc next to the cheesy looking pull cart, its a hard mix of WoW and ToR and defiently not in anyways Mature. And I dont see again how having Race-Locked factions is a positive again here, as EVERY MMO has that. Just adding One extra faction doesnt make it less childish or make the factions less similar, Letting ANY RACE join any Faction would make them less similar wouldnt it?? Wouldnt that be less childish? Im just failing to see how you can justify the side your on with these arguements?

 

I hope others read this post so they can see the very off One-Sideness of these posts.

  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

6/22/12 3:13:39 PM#60

This game can have unlocked races that dance the happy dance and spit actual money out of my disk drive...it will always be nothing more than a game being made by a company looking for a free ride on the back of one of the greatest series of games ever made.

I look forward to playing the upcoming Halo MMO...where combat is turn based and it replaces everything Halo has and replaces it with staple MMORPG gameplay. I am sure Halo fans will LOVE it!

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