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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » So I heard you have classes?

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39 posts found
  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5193

6/08/12 8:48:14 AM#21
Originally posted by Distopia

Classes yes, locked into a specific role as that class, not so much..

" You won't be able to create your own "classes", as everyone will choose an archetype from the start: tank, healer, mage, rogue, etc.  But once in the game, it's up to you how you build that character.  You can be a tank who wields a healing staff, or a mage who uses a sword and a shield.  Sure a a real healer is still going to do that role better than you, but essentially Matt wants to make sure players can and will take on several roles with their play.  Level 50 may be the cap, he said, but it's just a number.  Progression won't end there."

in technology, and its true in all things, there is something called diffusion of innovation and on that chart 'classes' would be considered a lagard category. Now, like trying to still use XP you can alter, modify and enchance a lagarded idea but in the end its still behind a purely elegant skill based system.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

6/08/12 9:00:16 AM#22
Originally posted by Distopia

Classes yes, locked into a specific role as that class, not so much..

" You won't be able to create your own "classes", as everyone will choose an archetype from the start: tank, healer, mage, rogue, etc.  But once in the game, it's up to you how you build that character.  You can be a tank who wields a healing staff, or a mage who uses a sword and a shield.  Sure a a real healer is still going to do that role better than you, but essentially Matt wants to make sure players can and will take on several roles with their play.  Level 50 may be the cap, he said, but it's just a number.  Progression won't end there."

This is the quote that I was referring to, in Traditional ES fashion, if I started as a Warrior Tank, but decided to build with a Healing Staff, I should become as powerful a healer as any other healers if i spend as much time healing as other healers.

But what they stated is that you will not become a healer if you decide to heal and skill up and level up by healing, you are still just a tank that decided to wield a healing staff. ( a tank that no one wants to party with )

 

 

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10571

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/08/12 9:02:18 AM#23


Originally posted by Distopia
Classes yes, locked into a specific role as that class, not so much..

" You won't be able to create your own "classes", as everyone will choose an archetype from the start: tank, healer, mage, rogue, etc.  But once in the game, it's up to you how you build that character.  You can be a tank who wields a healing staff, or a mage who uses a sword and a shield.  Sure a a real healer is still going to do that role better than you, but essentially Matt wants to make sure players can and will take on several roles with their play.  Level 50 may be the cap, he said, but it's just a number.  Progression won't end there."




That sounds a bit like Rift. You had to pick an archetype, but your role in a group or out in the world depended on which souls you picked and how you filled out the skills. This sounds like it'll be more gear based than skill based, but kind of the same general idea. Seems like it would be easier to switch things up with gear versus your skill points or talent trees though.

** edit **
The post above mine pokes a hole in the balloon though. You could wield a healing staff and heal yourself, but you're probably not going to be a group's healer or a group's tank because you won't be really good at either of those. :-(

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15533

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

6/08/12 9:12:28 AM#24
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Distopia
Classes yes, locked into a specific role as that class, not so much..

 

" You won't be able to create your own "classes", as everyone will choose an archetype from the start: tank, healer, mage, rogue, etc.  But once in the game, it's up to you how you build that character.  You can be a tank who wields a healing staff, or a mage who uses a sword and a shield.  Sure a a real healer is still going to do that role better than you, but essentially Matt wants to make sure players can and will take on several roles with their play.  Level 50 may be the cap, he said, but it's just a number.  Progression won't end there."




That sounds a bit like Rift. You had to pick an archetype, but your role in a group or out in the world depended on which souls you picked and how you filled out the skills. This sounds like it'll be more gear based than skill based, but kind of the same general idea. Seems like it would be easier to switch things up with gear versus your skill points or talent trees though.

** edit **
The post above mine pokes a hole in the balloon though. You could wield a healing staff and heal yourself, but you're probably not going to be a group's healer or a group's tank because you won't be really good at either of those. :-(

 

That all depends on how they work synergy into the group dynamics as well as how they implement cross class ability effectiveness. IN SWG I had weak healing abilities but due to the make up of the game, those weak abilities contributed to the group nicely.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17127

6/08/12 9:15:03 AM#25

You are aware that even Morrowind had classes? One didn't have to stick with the classes but they were there.

Having said that, in this game you can use any weapon or staff you want. It's just that if you aren't a mage you won't get the most out of a staff or the same with not being a warriro and using a sword.

 

 

  Mike-McQueen

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/05
Posts: 248

6/08/12 9:23:47 AM#26

I don't get the hate on class systems. They've been in place since the dawn of rpgs and now suddenly they're not cool. I think the main reason for them to go with a class system is for replayability. In every previous ES game I have only ever had one character because with one character you can learn and do everything. They want you to play through this game several times. More hours played = more dollar signs.

I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5193

6/08/12 9:38:37 AM#27
Originally posted by Mike-McQueen

I don't get the hate on class systems. They've been in place since the dawn of rpgs and now suddenly they're not cool. I think the main reason for them to go with a class system is for replayability. In every previous ES game I have only ever had one character because with one character you can learn and do everything. They want you to play through this game several times. More hours played = more dollar signs.

the word is antiquated.

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Sorill

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 4

6/08/12 9:45:33 AM#28

I believe that you guys are leaving out a key part of the class system that had been implemented in ES games prior to Skyrim.  That is the Major, Minor, and non class skills.  Take for example a character that chose magic skills as his Major skills and a character that chose combat skills as his major skills.  If they both chose after character creation to only use magic, the character with magic major skills would end up being the stronger character since he will actually level up and the character with combat major skills would never level up unless he actually used his combat skills as well as magic skills since his magic skills are non class skills.  The class system is more prevalent in ES games than you might think especially when determining your level.

  User Deleted
6/08/12 9:49:49 AM#29

To me it sounds as they will not limit weapon & armor choices to class but rather certain armors & weapons have more affinity (stats) towards their "classic mmo" role.

You can wield a sword but swords don't have +10292 healing bonus.
The Healers staff of awesome has it.


I could be wrong, but i had high hopes that combat ability would somehow be more focused on skills rather than items :/

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5193

6/08/12 9:50:41 AM#30
Originally posted by Sorill

I believe that you guys are leaving out a key part of the class system that had been implemented in ES games prior to Skyrim.  That is the Major, Minor, and non class skills.  Take for example a character that chose magic skills as his Major skills and a character that chose combat skills as his major skills.  If they both chose after character creation to only use magic, the character with magic major skills would end up being the stronger character since he will actually level up and the character with combat major skills would never level up unless he actually used his combat skills as well as magic skills since his magic skills are non class skills.  The class system is more prevalent in ES games than you might think especially when determining your level.

not completely true. I mean everything you say is true execpt for the 'prevalent' part. If you ask most TES players 'are there classes in TES games' most will say 'no'. If one is very much into getting the best skill boosts from their character and they study the game mechanics closely they will find what you are talking about. Most however dont, most dont even have a clue its there.

TOTALLY different experience from a class focused game.

Its similar to going to the most bike centric city in the US and saying 'hey they have cars and its faster' well yeah but its still a radically different city from LA.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16610

6/08/12 9:55:55 AM#31
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I have a feeling there will be 3 classes, fighter, mage & thief.

Wish they had none though. I get the tes system wouldn't work in a mmo as witnessed by afk swimmers in darkfall. But a tes mmo shouldn't have classes. It should have a progression setup something like the secret world imo.

There are other possibilities that are easier to balance and still would feel more like ES.

One solution would to instead of classes have plenty of trees you could specc stuff from, so you could max out say 2 or have 5 up to half. If you add that certain skills or spells might have armor or weapon restrictions you more or less could create your own class really simple.

Or you could allow people to buy skills from a huge list to create their own template. basing the cost on how good the skill is.

  Sorill

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 4

6/08/12 10:06:44 AM#32

Your right, it is a different experience than a class based game where all your skills and abilities are determined by the class that you chose when you began the game.  However, from the quote that was posted in a previous post, what it sounds like TESO will have is not a traditional class system either, but a system that allows a character to play in any style they want with a single character, similar to ES games, however, your limited in your maximum power based on those choices.  I think it would be similar to comparing two characters that have leveled their skills up the same exact amount of times in the same skills.  If one specialized combat and the other magic but they both leveled magic up after playing, the magic specialized character would be stronger even though they have the same exact level of magic skills, due to being higher lv and having more health/magicka/stamina as well as being able to aquire better gear.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

6/08/12 10:09:40 AM#33
Originally posted by Mike-McQueen

I don't get the hate on class systems. They've been in place since the dawn of rpgs and now suddenly they're not cool. I think the main reason for them to go with a class system is for replayability. In every previous ES game I have only ever had one character because with one character you can learn and do everything. They want you to play through this game several times. More hours played = more dollar signs.

Personally I am not hating on the Class system for other games, GW2 have class systems, yet you don't see anyone hating on it. I even love it.

But its Elder Scrolls, you have to remember that even if you picked Warrior as your class in other Elder Scroll games, when you wield Magic you are a mage, when you steal you are a thief, you are not limited by what you decided when you were picking your name. It was just a title, thats what made Elder Scrolls a Elder Scrolls game, the freedom of creating your own private class, or if you got the time to spend , an all powerful being. And I am never gimped for choosing Warrior if I ended up becoming a Mage user.

Don't you think that by allowing a single character to grow the way you wanted = more time spent on that character and all subsequent characters = more dollar signs.

How many people quit their MMO because their main character reached Level Cap and that was it, the only thing left to do is repeat all quests and dungeons with another alt, you lose all interest after a few weeks then unsubscribed.

Every single MMO out now already proved that class system is not for replayability. SWTOR actually tries to build on Alts with their legacy system, it wasn't for me so I quit, I don't know how it is over there, maybe its working. Because personally, When I play, I play with a Main character, others never reaches cap since they are mainly inventory mules.

 

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

6/08/12 10:11:56 AM#34

Sounds like everyone wants a system like AC and I would only agree with that if there was no respec.

How many of you really did a custom class in any of the ES games? I am betting most of the players here selected a pre-generated class anyway.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

6/08/12 10:16:11 AM#35
Originally posted by Sorill

Your right, it is a different experience than a class based game where all your skills and abilities are determined by the class that you chose when you began the game.  However, from the quote that was posted in a previous post, what it sounds like TESO will have is not a traditional class system either, but a system that allows a character to play in any style they want with a single character, similar to ES games, however, your limited in your maximum power based on those choices.  I think it would be similar to comparing two characters that have leveled their skills up the same exact amount of times in the same skills.  If one specialized combat and the other magic but they both leveled magic up after playing, the magic specialized character would be stronger even though they have the same exact level of magic skills, due to being higher lv and having more health/magicka/stamina as well as being able to aquire better gear.

What you are describing would have been Great, but what Distopia quoted stated the exact opposite.

When you have two characters, one is a warrior, another a Healer, both level the exactly the same. But the warrior decided on level 1 to use a healing staff to become a healer. Both Started the same time, killed the exact boss, wore the exact items.

The Healer will out heal the Warrior using a healing staff.

That is whats wrong, that is not play the way you want to play. You are limited by what you choose, and that is not a Elder Scroll game.

Of course, it will be hard to balance in an MMO setting, but thats Developer's job to make it work, think outside the box and make it work in an MMO setting. IF you can't do it then don't do it, don't ruin an IP just because you can't.

LOKE666

"There are other possibilities that are easier to balance and still would feel more like ES.

One solution would to instead of classes have plenty of trees you could specc stuff from, so you could max out say 2 or have 5 up to half. If you add that certain skills or spells might have armor or weapon restrictions you more or less could create your own class really simple.

Or you could allow people to buy skills from a huge list to create their own template. basing the cost on how good the skill is."

 

What Loke666 stated would have worked great and still keep the ES feeling of freedom of choice and building the character that you want alive. Its not impossible, they just couldn't think outside their box.

 

 

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

6/08/12 10:20:53 AM#36
Originally posted by Thorbrand

Sounds like everyone wants a system like AC and I would only agree with that if there was no respec.

How many of you really did a custom class in any of the ES games? I am betting most of the players here selected a pre-generated class anyway.

You should probably ask the question of how many that uses a Pre-generated Class in ES game, but ended up playing a totally different Class. example: Warrior becoming a Magic user , Thief becoming a Warrior, Magic user becoming a Ranger, or many combinations that is available.

Personally I always started as a Thief, then moved toward an extremely agile dagger wielding, magic using stealth character that steals and assassins, and avoids direct fights. If i am ever in a fight, I tend to use sword and shield for survivability. Am I stronger than other Sword and Shield users, nope, but if I build on it, then I will become stronger in them. So I am never gimped because of what I choose as my class in the beginning.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Sorill

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 4

6/08/12 10:21:50 AM#37
Originally posted by Lucioon
Originally posted by Sorill

Your right, it is a different experience than a class based game where all your skills and abilities are determined by the class that you chose when you began the game.  However, from the quote that was posted in a previous post, what it sounds like TESO will have is not a traditional class system either, but a system that allows a character to play in any style they want with a single character, similar to ES games, however, your limited in your maximum power based on those choices.  I think it would be similar to comparing two characters that have leveled their skills up the same exact amount of times in the same skills.  If one specialized combat and the other magic but they both leveled magic up after playing, the magic specialized character would be stronger even though they have the same exact level of magic skills, due to being higher lv and having more health/magicka/stamina as well as being able to aquire better gear.

What you are describing would have been Great, but what Distopia quoted stated the exact opposite.

When you have two characters, one is a warrior, another a Healer, both level the exactly the same. But the warrior decided on level 1 to use a healing staff to become a healer. Both Started the same time, killed the exact boss, wore the exact items.

The Healer will out heal the Warrior using a healing staff.

That is whats wrong, that is not play the way you want to play. You are limited by what you choose, and that is not a Elder Scroll game.

Of course, it will be hard to balance in an MMO setting, but thats Developer's job to make it work, think outside the box and make it work in an MMO setting. IF you can't do it then don't do it, don't ruin an IP just because you can't.

LOKE666

"There are other possibilities that are easier to balance and still would feel more like ES.

One solution would to instead of classes have plenty of trees you could specc stuff from, so you could max out say 2 or have 5 up to half. If you add that certain skills or spells might have armor or weapon restrictions you more or less could create your own class really simple.

Or you could allow people to buy skills from a huge list to create their own template. basing the cost on how good the skill is."

 

What Loke666 stated would have worked great and still keep the ES feeling of freedom of choice and building the character that you want alive. Its not impossible, they just couldn't think outside their box.

 

 

I wasn't referring to the MMO but to the actual ES single player games when describing character development.  I believe what they are doing witht he MMO is their way of accomplishing what ES did with the class system of Major, Minor, and non class skills.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5193

6/08/12 10:38:52 AM#38
Originally posted by Sorill

 

I wasn't referring to the MMO but to the actual ES single player games when describing character development.  I believe what they are doing witht he MMO is their way of accomplishing what ES did with the class system of Major, Minor, and non class skills.

I doubt it very seriously.

Classes in TES single player games do exist but they are kind of like bicycles as a form of transportation in LA. Its not something you mention when you have 60 seconds to describe the feature list of a city.

they wouldnt havent have mentioned 'class based' in the very first article written about TES Online if the overall skill system was going to be anything even close to a skill based system

Correlation does not imply causation

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

6/08/12 6:25:18 PM#39
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sorill

I believe that you guys are leaving out a key part of the class system that had been implemented in ES games prior to Skyrim.  That is the Major, Minor, and non class skills.  Take for example a character that chose magic skills as his Major skills and a character that chose combat skills as his major skills.  If they both chose after character creation to only use magic, the character with magic major skills would end up being the stronger character since he will actually level up and the character with combat major skills would never level up unless he actually used his combat skills as well as magic skills since his magic skills are non class skills.  The class system is more prevalent in ES games than you might think especially when determining your level.

not completely true. I mean everything you say is true execpt for the 'prevalent' part. If you ask most TES players 'are there classes in TES games' most will say 'no'. If one is very much into getting the best skill boosts from their character and they study the game mechanics closely they will find what you are talking about. Most however dont, most dont even have a clue its there.

TOTALLY different experience from a class focused game.

Its similar to going to the most bike centric city in the US and saying 'hey they have cars and its faster' well yeah but its still a radically different city from LA.

Most of the "skill bonuses" from a certain "class" were actually pretty minimal and once you moved beyond the initial 20 hours of the game, they meant almost nothing.

And they didn't impact what you actually did.  A two handed score of 75 and a "rogue" is doing just as much damage as a "warrior" with a hammer.  In Skyrim, it depended on what perks you chose that impacted it.

 

That being said, we really need to see how various things interact.  The system has just as many questions as it does answers, and we need to see how it looks in the field.

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