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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why (most) MMO developers are insane.

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60 posts found
  dotdotdash

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/01/11
Posts: 343

 
OP  6/06/12 5:51:31 PM#1

Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

...

Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

...

This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5895

6/06/12 6:23:32 PM#2
Originally posted by dotdotdash

Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

...

Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

...

This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

See this is all in your head, that everybody is copying WoW.

 

LoTRO for example, is AC3 with LoTR IP on top. follow AC1-3 you can see how it was slowly changing from Sandbox to themepark over time.

 

also keep in mind that the Themepark model, which we tend to call WoW clones now days, was done by Everquest 1, years in advance, which is what the model is based fully on with added perks. WoW is no different in that logic as well.

WoW is the most popular MMO on the market, so people compare everything to it, but seem to forget the parts where they try to be unique in.

WoW is a clone of EQ1 with a few less time sinks. nothing really unique about it.  Post WoW MMO, have many unique concepts. you just over look them.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/06/12 6:28:13 PM#3

The main problem is that games that release doing something 'different' still don't do that good, albeit for different reasons.

DDO never did that well, they assume it was because it was "too different", but they fail to attribute it to the claustrophobic nature of the world design.

Tera isn't doing all that well, they assume it's because it's "too different", but don't see how the west reacts to Eastern art styles and aesthetics (poorly).

Mortal Online is doing... how it's doing... and they *know* it's because it;s "too different", but fail to see the mark of 'amateur' all over it that any normal person can see.

 

It's a failure to see the big picture and be stuck in hyperbole. A business degree doesn't make one any kind of analyst, it just makes them a person who was able to afford a 3-4 year degree - nothing more.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

6/06/12 6:30:35 PM#4

Funny story. A few years back, there was this MMO. It jumped into a very small, nearly non-existent game market, and took it by storm. It offered a streamlined, structured experience compared to the confusing open-ended messes prior to it. It had a sub count MANY times higher than anyone else.

 

For years, EVERY MMO was accused of trying to be the one to kill it. Many even flat out claimed they could. But no one ever did. It's still running today, with a surprisingly large playerbase given its aged graphics and now-same-as-everyone-else gameplay.

 

I am, of course, talking about the original Everquest.

 

Oh wait, you thought I meant WoW. Hehe. I can see why. Point is, the whole "There's this King of MMOs everyone wants to beat that's an unheard of phenomena" is really nothing new. The scale's bigger now, perhaps, but it's the same thing. One day WoW will fall by the wayside, some new Big Thing will appear, and we'll gripe that X game is fail when it doesn't have 100+ million subs like The Next Big Thing.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/06/12 6:34:19 PM#5
Originally posted by dotdotdash

Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

...

Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

...

This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Except that LOTRO did very well and made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

Except that Rift did very well and made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

Except that SWTOR has done pretty good, made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

 

So they aren't expecting different results, they are expecting the same reults.  To do very well, make a lot of money, and a lot of gamers will enjoy it.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  thekid1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 772

6/06/12 6:36:18 PM#6

Nice theory. But what if they don't want to beat WOW but just want a piece of the pie.

AKA just copy another game so development is relative easy and rake up some profits. I'm sure all the games you list ARE making a profit or atleast don't lose money.

  cooper85

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 390

6/06/12 6:39:58 PM#7

It makes no sense well the only sence it makes is that it's easier. So many companies take the easy way out when they can't deliver on promise. Instead of going further and making their cool idea work, they change it or cut it, then spin it as "We did this for you!"

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5895

6/06/12 6:42:16 PM#8
Originally posted by cooper85

It makes no sense well the only sence it makes is that it's easier. So many companies take the easy way out when they can't deliver on promise. Instead of going further and making their cool idea work, they change it or cut it, then spin it as "We did this for you!"

WoW did the same thing. Whats so different between WoW and EQ1 besides time sinks? come on...

 

not much. same amount of difference can be traced in post WoW MMO. Just not done in the same manner like the transition from EQ to WoW was.

  RoyalPhunk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 181

6/06/12 6:48:38 PM#9

+1 OP

 

I have often thought the exact same thing. Wonder how long it will last...

  Nilenya

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 333

6/06/12 6:48:43 PM#10
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by dotdotdash

Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

...

Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

...

This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

See this is all in your head, that everybody is copying WoW.

 

LoTRO for example, is AC3 with LoTR IP on top. follow AC1-3 you can see how it was slowly changing from Sandbox to themepark over time.

 

also keep in mind that the Themepark model, which we tend to call WoW clones now days, was done by Everquest 1, years in advance, which is what the model is based fully on with added perks. WoW is no different in that logic as well.

WoW is the most popular MMO on the market, so people compare everything to it, but seem to forget the parts where they try to be unique in.

WoW is a clone of EQ1 with a few less time sinks. nothing really unique about it.  Post WoW MMO, have many unique concepts. you just over look them.

 

It is true that wow was inspired - alot- by EQ1, but then again you had 2 developers on Wow, having come straight from the two most successfull raiding guilds in EQ1, namely Furor, and Tigole - and so ofcourse there would be inspiration abound. But that DOES NOT make EQ1 a themepark mmo.

 

EQ1 in its original form, from 1999 to roughly planes of power, not including the Ldon expansion was a true Sandbox mmo. 

 

 

Stop namedropping oldschool mmo's if you cannot put them into context correctly. 

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/06/12 6:50:25 PM#11
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by cooper85

It makes no sense well the only sence it makes is that it's easier. So many companies take the easy way out when they can't deliver on promise. Instead of going further and making their cool idea work, they change it or cut it, then spin it as "We did this for you!"

WoW did the same thing. Whats so different between WoW and EQ1 besides time sinks? come on...

The fact that many EQ1 players came from UO and Meridian, with very few having it be their *first* MMO, while WoW is the exact opposite.

The refer a friend program is what made WoW what it is today, because in doing so it popped a lot of MMO cherries, and now gives the kind of nostagia for them that I get when reminiscing over UO and SWG. I think those were the highlights of the entire genre, and now millions of others think WoW is.

Nothing else can ever come out and change the way rose-tinted glasses work.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

6/06/12 6:52:26 PM#12
Originally posted by dotdotdash

Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

...

Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

...

This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

This is only applicable if you can establish that these various developers actually expected to beat WoW.

 

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  Banegrivm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 202

6/06/12 6:53:10 PM#13
Originally posted by dotdotdash

Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

...

Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

...

This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

 

You my friend, are a wise man. That's the root of the problem with the gaming industry right now when it comes to MMO's. That's not an industry problem however, it's a "business problem". People in business, at least investors, suits in companies, etc. don't like to experiment. They like to do what other companies are already doing that's making a profit and they will often try to append their copy with upgraded features. Hence all the WoW clones. However, the first company to innovate and succeed rakes in all the big bucks. 

 

I've been playing MMO's since NWN on AOL, Shadows of Yserbius, Multiplayer Battletech, etc. and I am really sick of the WoW clones, I think this is the worst point ever in the history of MMO's. I keep looking back at those games I mentioned (all of which came out before UO and EQ), and they were so much more fun then the modern crop of MMO's. What's worse is those games run circles around modern MMO's and they were built on technologies that were seriously outdated and used EGA graphics. You could probably play any of those games on a cell phone I bet nowadays.

 

I'm looking forward to picking up Day Z when I get some cash and I really can't wait for Mechwarrior Online. 

 

Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19124

6/06/12 7:19:43 PM#14
Originally posted by dotdotdash

Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

...

Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

...

This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

LOTRO is still running strong after so many years. So certainly it is making enough money.

Rift seems to be doing fine since they also have new content and stuff.

So while none of these games beat WOW, i do not seem a problem of copying WOW if at least some of them make money. You do not see HTC stop making phones even though Apple sells more iphones, do you?

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/06/12 7:36:28 PM#15
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by cooper85

It makes no sense well the only sence it makes is that it's easier. So many companies take the easy way out when they can't deliver on promise. Instead of going further and making their cool idea work, they change it or cut it, then spin it as "We did this for you!"

WoW did the same thing. Whats so different between WoW and EQ1 besides time sinks? come on...

The fact that many EQ1 players came from UO and Meridian, with very few having it be their *first* MMO, while WoW is the exact opposite.

The refer a friend program is what made WoW what it is today, because in doing so it popped a lot of MMO cherries, and now gives the kind of nostagia for them that I get when reminiscing over UO and SWG. I think those were the highlights of the entire genre, and now millions of others think WoW is.

Nothing else can ever come out and change the way rose-tinted glasses work.

I would say it was the other way around in regards to EQ, by far the majority of people playing EQ it was their first, only a small number came from a previous game. 

Yes WoW did have a lot of newcomers, no denying that.  But saying EQ didn't is IMO false.

The refer a friend program started several years after WoW went big.  It actually started in 2008.  In January of 2008 WoW had allready achieved 10 million players.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Recruit-A-Friend

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft#Reception

World of Warcraft was the best-selling PC game of 2005 and 2006.[86] As of January 22, 2008, World of Warcraft has more than 10 million subscribers worldwide, with more than 2 million subscribers in Europe, more than 2.5 million in North America, and about 5.5 million in Asia.[87]

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/06/12 7:39:07 PM#16

Lies! that's what Blizzard wants you to think. >_>   <_<

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/06/12 7:41:03 PM#17
Originally posted by GTwander

Lies! that's what Blizzard wants you to think. >_>   <_<

Possibly but given a choice between a publicy traded company with investors, banking statements and federal oversight and some random guy on the net.  I'll go with the company unless the random net guy offers compelling evidence.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

6/06/12 7:42:23 PM#18
Originally posted by Nilenya

 

It is true that wow was inspired - alot- by EQ1, but then again you had 2 developers on Wow, having come straight from the two most successfull raiding guilds in EQ1, namely Furor, and Tigole - and so ofcourse there would be inspiration abound. But that DOES NOT make EQ1 a themepark mmo.

 

EQ1 in its original form, from 1999 to roughly planes of power, not including the Ldon expansion was a true Sandbox mmo. 

 

Stop namedropping oldschool mmo's if you cannot put them into context correctly. 

Umm you must have never played AC or UO if you think EQ was a sandbox.

Stop namedropping oldschool mmo's if you cannot put them into context correctly.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3705

RIP City of Heroes!

6/06/12 7:43:47 PM#19
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GTwander

Lies! that's what Blizzard wants you to think. >_>   <_<

Possibly but given a choice between a publicy traded company with investors, banking statements and federal oversight and some random guy on the net.  I'll go with the company unless the random net guy offers compelling evidence.

I will to...Unless those aliens and their mothership returns.

  User Deleted
6/06/12 8:13:52 PM#20

I would like to know what people want MMOs to bring to the table that will not be like WOW.

 

What features should developers leave out of their games in order to be unlike WOW?

Moreover, after these features are left out of the game how do the developers sustain their game when the rest of the community turns around and demands most of those features to be included or else they will fail?

Need proof? Read every single thread around here about Rift, SWTOR, TSW, GW2, Tera, and everyone else. There are countless threads of people stating how each and every game needs to fix features and add features. Those features they are requesting are all found in WOW.....the very game no one wants to have copied, but they must have those features in order to survive.

 

Conclusion; People have no idea what they really want.

Result; Developers make bland, generic games with blanket features. They are casting a large net hoping to land as many fish as possible.

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