Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.

 

Pretty much this... Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Linear progression is linear progression... It doesn't matter if it's based on a number or skill or equipment. The thing is nothing is wrong with this especially in online games. If it didn't have linear progression then it would trivialize content. Right now you can't start the game and go right from starter city to savage coast and live or be able to complete quests because you will not be strong enough to fight creatures there because there hp is based on the tiered gear stats.. System is nice and is fun but really isn't a whole lot different than a level based game you just get more options to play with

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.

 

Pretty much this... Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Linear progression is linear progression... It doesn't matter if it's based on a number or skill or equipment. The thing is nothing is wrong with this especially in online games. If it didn't have linear progression then it would trivialize content. Right now you can't start the game and go right from starter city to savage coast and live or be able to complete quests because you will not be strong enough to fight creatures there because there hp is based on the tiered gear stats.. System is nice and is fun but really isn't a whole lot different than a level based game you just get more options to play with

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

 

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Have you considerd the possibility that the number of skill points you gain is your level?

After all, EVE is a "skill-based, levelless" game and they've been referring to themselves as a "1.4 million sp pilot" or whatever for years.

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.

 

Pretty much this... Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Linear progression is linear progression... It doesn't matter if it's based on a number or skill or equipment. The thing is nothing is wrong with this especially in online games. If it didn't have linear progression then it would trivialize content. Right now you can't start the game and go right from starter city to savage coast and live or be able to complete quests because you will not be strong enough to fight creatures there because there hp is based on the tiered gear stats.. System is nice and is fun but really isn't a whole lot different than a level based game you just get more options to play with

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

 

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Have you considerd the possibility that the number of skill points you gain is your level?

 

Yes I have. Then I realized that would mean there are 192  levels!? Then I thought about it and noticed , I flat out don't need to fill  all the skills to be able to compete. In mmos with levels either you are level cap or you are nothing. 

Originally posted by cooper85

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

 

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.

Originally posted by cooper85

Yes I have. Then I realized that would mean there are 192  levels!? Then I thought about it and noticed , I flat out don't need to fill  all the skills to be able to compete. In mmos with levels either you are level cap or you are nothing. 

Bit of a broad generalization. I can understand why you feel that way, but you are basing ALL level-based games off of a model like (for instance) WoW's. Not all games are like that. I again reference EVE, whose players use skill point amounts to equate to levels. Someone with a smaller amount of skill points than someone else could very well be a much more powerful player than someone with more, if he spent them better or was competing in specific areas.

The point I was trying to make is that if there's any sort of prgression tiering, it's a level. Whether you have 10, 80, or 800000000, it's the same thing.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by cooper85

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

 

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.

yup and like I said this sort of progression in a MMO is good and gives players sense of "acomplishment" but overall it's not very differn't from level based systems.  Here is a quote from TSW dev's

"A new player’s experience is a bit more restricted. The players are free to go wherever they want from the beginning, but they will most likely get their ass handed to them in the more difficult zones. They can fight, and damage most things, but they will find themselves glancing a lot (glancing = bad hit / low damage). You can tell if a monster is lower, equal or higher than you through a coloring system (monsters will be colored green, yellow or red). Your own "power" in this is based off a collection of your skills, and it will indicate your max potential."

Power is basically your "level" now again the system is much more flexable but in the overall grand picture works pretty much the same way... My argument for the OP would be  "who wan'ts to play a class restrictive MMO" not a levelless.. although for me if the classes are interesting enough I don't mind that either:P

You can dress up a pile of crap all you like, but in the end its still a pile of crap.

Theres ways to be creative in changing up "levels" but in the end its still levels. Anything with progression is levels. You dont want levels, go play a sims game. You cant have an RPG w/o levels.

Now to answer your thread title question: I do, I want to play a game with levels. But I want my levels to mean something, when I reach cap I want to feel like I have accomplished something. Mindless quest grinding to cap is meaningless. IMO if you can reach cap in less than 3 months its worthless. Id like to see it take 4-6 months to reach cap. But then again I am an MMORPG player, and not an online rpg player. 

I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.

I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group.  After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.

To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.

Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive. 

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by cooper85

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

 

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.

yup and like I said this sort of progression in a MMO is good and gives players sense of "acomplishment" but overall it's not very differn't from level based systems.  Here is a quote from TSW dev's

"A new player’s experience is a bit more restricted. The players are free to go wherever they want from the beginning, but they will most likely get their ass handed to them in the more difficult zones. They can fight, and damage most things, but they will find themselves glancing a lot (glancing = bad hit / low damage). You can tell if a monster is lower, equal or higher than you through a coloring system (monsters will be colored green, yellow or red). Your own "power" in this is based off a collection of your skills, and it will indicate your max potential."

 

Power is basically your "level" now again the system is much more flexable but in the overall grand picture works pretty much the same way... My argument for the OP would be  "who wan'ts to play a class restrictive MMO" not a levelless.. although for me if the classes are interesting enough I don't mind that either:P

Power in the since this dev used it corralates to ability collection.  Did you notice there was no mention of level in the quote you are siting? Power from synergy of skills =/= levels

Sounds like the defining thing here is really the class-less system, not the fact that it's level-less, because, really, progression is progression. If they used the same system but made you pick a class and only choose to upgrade skills from particular class trees, it'd be effectively the same as any other game with levels (except you wouldn't have a unifying number next to your name). 

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by cooper85

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

 

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.

Take a character who has 10 in all skills, weapons and abilities and equip starter equipment and see what happens then.

Or better yet, take a maxed out naked TSW character to the starter area and cpmpare results when you do the same in say WOW or any other level based game. There is a big difference.

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by cooper85

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

 

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.

Take a character who has 10 in all skills, weapons and abilities and equip starter equipment and see what happens then.

Or better yet, take a maxed out naked TSW character to the starter area and cpmpare results when you do the same in say WOW or any other level based game. There is a big difference.

thats a silly comparison considering your progression on stats is completly based on gear in other games its not , and really doesn't have a relavence to the topic at hand

Originally posted by Maelwydd

I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.

I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group.  After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.

To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.

Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive. 

 

Nice post. This is hard to understand if you have never played a leveless mmo.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by cooper85

In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you  hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..  

 

You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW.  You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either.  At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is  represented by the number next to your protrait, your level. 

Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.

Take a character who has 10 in all skills, weapons and abilities and equip starter equipment and see what happens then.

Or better yet, take a maxed out naked TSW character to the starter area and cpmpare results when you do the same in say WOW or any other level based game. There is a big difference.

thats a silly comparison considering your progression on stats is completly based on gear in other games its not , and really doesn't have a relavence to the topic at hand

Levels give you stats. You get no stat for spending skill points in TSW. This comparision illustrates one point of difference between levels and leveless.

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by Maelwydd

I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.

I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group.  After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.

To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.

Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive. 

 

Nice post. This is hard to understand if you have never played a leveless mmo.

not sure why but you guys really seem to miss the point people are trying to make on basic progression in the overall grand scheme of a game.. but to each their own if it makes you happy it makes you happy

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by Maelwydd

I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.

I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group.  After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.

To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.

Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive. 

 

Nice post. This is hard to understand if you have never played a leveless mmo.

AhA! I finally understand the disconnect. A game that has levels is not the same as a game that is level-based.

Level-based means that a character's ability to play and succeed in against the game's challenges correlates directly to your level. TSW is not level-based.

Meanwhile, a game with levels just has tiers of progression that mark your experience as a character. But they do not define you as a character, as other factors are more important. In this way, TSW has levels.

Originally posted by terrant

 

AhA! I finally understand the disconnect. A game that has levels is not the same as a game that is level-based.

 

Level-based means that a character's ability to play and succeed in against the game's challenges correlates directly to your level. TSW is not level-based.

 

Meanwhile, a game with levels just has tiers of progression that mark your experience as a character. But they do not define you as a character, as other factors are more important. In this way, TSW has levels.

 

this.. and people are so stuck in the "numbers" of leveling.. but yea it seems some of us are arguing what seems to be differn't topics

The important thing is what effect "levels" have in a game, not whether they exist or are more or less hidden.

In a "classic" level-based game like WoW, levels regulate everything in the game world in a linear fashion. If you are at level-cap, you are god compared to a L10 player or mob. They could beat on you all day long and you'd not notice at all. In linear systems you are at your most powerful when you reach the "end" of the progression ladder.

In a point-based system like EVE, the amount of points you have only give you more options, not massive DPS or hitpoint advantages. A simple example: If it takes 50M skillpoints to maximize combat skills when flying a battleship, my 150M skillpoint total does not increase my combat skills in a battleship. It allows me to also maximize my mining skills, but my combat skills in a battleship forever remain capped.

So, saying "all games have levels" may be true, but to imply that that means "all games are equal" is clearly wrong.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

 So, saying "all games have levels" may be true, but to imply that that means "all games are equal" is clearly wrong.

I dont' think most have been saying that.

A level is a level, period. TSW has "levels" in the form of ranks. These where used because of good reasons, since it his a progression based games, and has we've said a million times, progressions requires some form of blockers.

Even in a game that you don't get more powerfull, you still have to unlock something to get more variety in your options. That's a "level", just placed in a different form.

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

Nothing we  can say will get through to the OP. His fanboi-ness is blinding him to the the buzz-words and hype illusions.

That's a mean thing to say.  

What's level cap? I hear these "it's LIKE levels" arguments, but no one has qaualified these arguments by qauntifying a number. Not one.

Quantifying a number in a level based game is pretty easy.

Based on your base stats, you level is = X.  

Based on max level your base stats are = X.

You just can't do that in TSW.