Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by StoneRoses

Shopping for a MMORPG will be like shopping for a pair of shoes. Just look at how many games are in the market now.

Yeah, only problem is that all the shoestores only sell Adidas shoes and copys of them... and I want a pair of boots.

you're in luck.

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Originally posted by Gudrunix

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Originally posted by Gudrunix

factor in that players are going to be very reluctant to switch games

It was a nice post but I would say that this point has already been proven wrong repeatedly.

How many people rushed to buy SW:TOR?  How many tried Warhammer?  Star Trek online?  Age of Conan?  And so on.

People aren't reluctant to jump into new games.  In fact, I would say it's just the opposite, people are too eager to try new games.  So eager that they buy games even if they suspect they won't like them or maybe they let themselves get caught up in the hype or whatever. 

Anyway, the problem for new mmorpgs isn't that people refuse to switch games; it's that after people have switched to the new game the new game fails to hold them.  We could argue why if you want but there is no doubt that it's true.

OK, good point.  Yes, players are willing to try new games.  But ultimately, they don't stay; and I think the reasons I highlighted are part of that.

One way of thinking about it is to realize that the investment the player has made in World of Warcraft is always there, waiting for the player to return to it.  That means that, for a new game to pull a player away from WoW, it has to be better by such a huge margin that the player is willing to give up on all that progression, and to have to learn a new game from scratch, to leave behind their friends, etc.

So, players will flirt with a new game for a month, but they won't file divorce papers with WoW.  That's the reality, and that's what we've seen over and over - a rush of new players for a new game for a month or so, then they quietly go back home to Azeroth.  And that's going to keep happening, until players tire of MMORPGs altogether and look for something different - and what I am saying is that computer game companies should forget about trying to compete head-to-head with WoW and be looking for that something different, the place that gamers will end up when they have tired of MMORPGs altogether.

I don't know----I really think you're putting too much emphasis on peoples' attachment to WoW.  I'm sure it's a factor I just have a hard time believing it's as big a factor as you indicate.  Especially since WoW is geting a bit long in the tooth at this point.  I suspect that even the most diehard WoW fans are probably getting a little tired of it.

Also, that theory doesn't explain people like myself who don't play WoW or any other game.  Nothing can hold me very long.  If I try a new game and lose interest I don't go back to my main game I just stop playing MMOs entirely again.

What it all boils down to is the fun factor.  People jump into a new game with high hopes and maybe it's fun for a while but the fun fizzles out quickly and they start dropping out of it.  Why?  Well who knows but I agree with you that game companies need to try something different because I have no doubt that a big part of these fizzling games is the "been there done that" feeling they give people.  I mean how many times have you seen people bitching about that very thing on forums?  The sheer volume of complaints of that sort must mean something.  The big mystery is why are game developers deaf to it?

Another thing I think might be part of it is the way they depend too much on progression as a hook.  Instead of trying to make the game genuinly fun they appeal to that loot whore in all of us to try to keep us going.  "Just a little more experience and I'll make that next level".  "Just have to finish this quest and I'll get my new weapon."  I don't think that sort of thing works as well as it used to because, again, we've all done it so many times before that it doesn't have that same addictive quality anymore.  I'm not saying it no longer works at all, it just doesn't have enough power over us to be the major hook anymore.

Blah, I could keep going but I'm tired of of typing so I'll leave at this for now.

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.

For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.

 

For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.

Actually, and I say this with considerable dread...He is the majority now.  The casual player is where the money is and therefore what the industry caters toward.

Originally posted by pierth

 

Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.

 

For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.

yeah .. 1259 .. i am sure you can find a few thousand people who would play anything.

I don't have numbers. But i have a life and i am not "put forth the time effort" in any entertainment product just for the heck of it. I spend my entertainment time where it is fun. That is the ONLY criterion. I found mowing down hordes of mobs fun in Diablo 3 .. and that is why i am playing it.

I do not find "inconvenient" old school stuff (like camping, or selling without a AH) fun and i won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. I vote with my dollars and you do that same.

Originally posted by mmaize

Actually, and I say this with considerable dread...He is the majority now.  The casual player is where the money is and therefore what the industry caters toward.

You are certainly free to express your opinion but without sources and metrics it's all hot air.

Plus, what exactly do you define as a casual player? I've seen players that have very sporadic schedules accomplish plenty in "grindy" games- it just takes them longer overall. If by casual you mean a player that wants to be rewarded constantly while putting little to no effort into gameplay then I can understand why current MMOs go for higher client/box initial costs because a player that can succeed effortlessly won't stay around long- there's only so much following a carrot a player can do before realizing they no longer care about that carrot, particularly when there are many of them and they are very simple to get.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

yeah .. 1259 .. i am sure you can find a few thousand people who would play anything.

I don't have numbers. But i have a life and i am not "put forth the time effort" in any entertainment product just for the heck of it. I spend my entertainment time where it is fun. That is the ONLY criterion. I found mowing down hordes of mobs fun in Diablo 3 .. and that is why i am playing it.

I do not find "inconvenient" old school stuff (like camping, or selling without a AH) fun and i won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. I vote with my dollars and you do that same.

You are certainly free to do that, I beta'd D3 and I was bored to death because click x1000 is not what I call quality gameplay- hell I could get that much depth out of Atari 2600 games with one button and a stick.

Nariusseldon, have you ever made in-game goals that take longer than a couple of play sessions? It seems as though you are the very definition of an instant gratification-seeking gamer and if you can't comprehend the pleasure people get out of completing difficult, long-term, or goals that require teamwork then I really can't explain it to you because you lack the fundamental knowledge of what sets this genre apart from the others.

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.

 

For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.

Bahahaha, 1259, yeah, you sure proved me wrong there. 

"Mindless hack and slash" has nothing to do with what I was talking about, by the way. The gameplay itself can be fun and engaging; my post was criticizing the incessantly droll notion that the fact that MMOs are increasingly being forced to respect a player's time is somehow a bad thing. Traveling everywhere on foot (or even on a mount) is archaic. It was a grand idea when players still had their pants blown off by the entire notion of a virtual world, but I have 50 different worlds I can jump into and out of at will now; the novelty's worn off a bit. Give me something fun to do, or I won't waste my precious time doing BS repetitive tasks (be they XP grinding, slow long distance travel, or trying to find the best deal by browsing a hundred individual player-run shops). 

That says NOTHING about the quality of the gameplay, NOTHING about how "mindless" the game is, NOTHING about anything other than the notion that it is somehow "noble" to "work" for something in a game is sheer bunk. If you want to, and have the ability to, spend so much time plugged into a virtual world that you would actively ASK for it to waste your time, you are in the minority of adults, and hence your tastes do not reflect something that could conceivably be turned into a M(ASSIVELY)MORPG.

i think most of you are looking for Embers of Caerus.  go check it out.

The argument doesn't sit with me.

People who love RPG's/MMO's don't necessarily want to play FPS.

The issue is that Blizzard have a product and a consumer base that works very well.  However there are millions out there, I am and all my friends are, not into WoW and will never be into it.  There is a massive market of gamers who want something different.

What we have here is a McDonald's analogy.  Blizzard is McDonald's and they have millions of customers.  Millions hate McDonalds and will never eat there.  So when firm after firm comes out saying they are taking on McDonalds, I am not interested. Because...I fking hate McDonalds and I don't want the same crap somewhere else.

The MMO industry needs to stop focusing on McDonalds AKA Blizzard, and recognize the millions of players looking for something different. 

EVE CCP have done this and although they don't have millions of players they are one of the strongest, most recognised brands in the MMO world.  They hire hundreds of developers and still make millions. 

The only problem with the industry is the lack of imagination and vision from the investors. 

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.

 

For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.

This reminds me a greal deal of a conversation I had with a very close friend and (now former) guild mate in SWTOR.

I would not participate in or endorse kill trading in Ilum whereas he just shrugged his shoulders and lamented how it saved him time.

We all have varying amounts of time to dedicate to playing however if the option is not in the game we either accept it or find something more suited to our expectations. There is a growing portion of the community though that grumbles about how the short cuts should be in every game from the start so they have an easier time getting stuff done.

Developers are trying to appeal to as many people as they can in order to compete. Yes players may have less time than in previous years to spend playing the game, and yes some people are just lazy and want most of the work done for them so they can enjoy the fun bits.

For me, the greatest turn off in end game is the constant rush through raid content so player X, or Y, or both can get everything done in their time frame. I am indifferent towards game mechanics that create short cuts for players to speed through the desired content just so they can get everything done quickly.

Players ask for the large detailed worlds and maps to explore but most of them would be happy as hell to stand in a main hub city and fast travel to the raid or dungeon just to save time. The want to use an auction house because they do not want to wait for their items to sell in a store. For all the people that dislike the SWTOR crew skills system, I bet there are far more that love the idea that they didn't have to farm most of those resources.

I think the future of the genre is going to cater more towards the easy play style. The community has tasted it and the addiction has set in.

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.

 

For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.

Bahahaha, 1259, yeah, you sure proved me wrong there. 

"Mindless hack and slash" has nothing to do with what I was talking about, by the way. The gameplay itself can be fun and engaging; my post was criticizing the incessantly droll notion that the fact that MMOs are increasingly being forced to respect a player's time is somehow a bad thing. Traveling everywhere on foot (or even on a mount) is archaic. It was a grand idea when players still had their pants blown off by the entire notion of a virtual world, but I have 50 different worlds I can jump into and out of at will now; the novelty's worn off a bit. Give me something fun to do, or I won't waste my precious time doing BS repetitive tasks (be they XP grinding, slow long distance travel, or trying to find the best deal by browsing a hundred individual player-run shops). 

That says NOTHING about the quality of the gameplay, NOTHING about how "mindless" the game is, NOTHING about anything other than the notion that it is somehow "noble" to "work" for something in a game is sheer bunk. If you want to, and have the ability to, spend so much time plugged into a virtual world that you would actively ASK for it to waste your time, you are in the minority of adults, and hence your tastes do not reflect something that could conceivably be turned into a M(ASSIVELY)MORPG.

I'll color code these responses so that you might actually be able to follow along.

Yes, I did and I'm sorry you're too thick to see the point, allow me to spell it out for you: 1,259 people on obscure emulated servers that you'd only be able to find if you searched for it or by word of mouth as opposed to AAA games that are being hyped and marketed to death. I can't make the ramifications any simpler for you to comprehend.

For players that actually want the breadth and depth of a virtual world, they understand there will be some inconvenience involved so as to build a community. Just how much is necessary has never been perfected and I absolutely agree that some of it was completely needless in the past however we can see what happens when all inconvenience (that could often be remedied by relying on other players) is removed from a MMORPG- you get a shallow, watered-down single player RPG-wannabe lobby game with optional CO-OP. If you think those are the strengths of the MMORPG genre then I'm sure the publishers love you because you'll scoop up and feces they put out.

I do, as a player that only has time to spend about 90min at time, 3-4 times a week I can choose to spend my time achieving goals that take more effort than a single 90min span of playtime can reward. It's called having patience and wanting more than what little trinket, bauble or title you get just from logging in- keep enjoying your dumbed down, simplistic, anyone-can-achieve anything by hitting this button gameplay. I pity you for having such low expectations.

I've not asked for any kind of waste of time, I've asked for a massively multiplayer game where it takes more than a single player's effort to complete larger-scaled goals. If you don't wish to interact with others there are a multitude of single player games where you don't need to talk to anyone, and you can be the great big asocial hero all by yourself rather than have to actually coordinate with other people to achieve similar goals.

Ah, the laughable conclusion- you assert that I'm clearly in the minority of a phantom group you assume you belong to and hope others will believe you are a spokesman for- pathetic. "M(ASSIVELY)MORPG" doesn't mean massively single player and what I speak of has been made into MMORPGs- as I said I'm playing on a private server of one now.

I hope you understood this post, and that for further replies I don't have to resort monosyllabically or with pictures.

I tend to agree with the OP in a few of his observations.  No one wants to move to a new game IF they have a 5-8 year subscription commitment (around $1440), with a few thousand hours of play time, and top tiered gear, particularly if there is no new game to play (clone of whatever the player was playing).  It only makes sense socially, psychologically, and economically to go back to the original.

Many players not playing the AAA games currently are either burned out or people that have never played the games based on some reason they hold against them.  So neither of these players are going to make a long term committment to the genre since the former will find the similarities of anything will be to close to their game of choice to offer enough variety for any period of time and the latter won't play at all unless their reasons for objections are removed.

Tie to these problems of customer movement, the up front cost of game development (not just MMO's but all games), and as an investor I don't see a lot of games out there that are making changes large enough to warrant my $$$. 

As a game player I'm only spending my $$$ on 2 AAA titles this year.  That's it.  I'll buy indie games long before I pay for AAA titles..they are cheaper and they are exploring gameplay in much larger ways than the AAA titles can.

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Agreed. That sounds liek a game he wants to make but by no means the defintion of an mmo rpg. 

An mmorpg.  first, should be like an RPG.  there are plenty of examples ,but lets look at the grats final fantasy 6 the dragon age series fall out.  In other words you need adventures for pcs.  Then you need to make a way so multiple people can do this together. That's it massive multiplayer online in an rpg.

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.

 

For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.

Bahahaha, 1259, yeah, you sure proved me wrong there. 

"Mindless hack and slash" has nothing to do with what I was talking about, by the way. The gameplay itself can be fun and engaging; my post was criticizing the incessantly droll notion that the fact that MMOs are increasingly being forced to respect a player's time is somehow a bad thing. Traveling everywhere on foot (or even on a mount) is archaic. It was a grand idea when players still had their pants blown off by the entire notion of a virtual world, but I have 50 different worlds I can jump into and out of at will now; the novelty's worn off a bit. Give me something fun to do, or I won't waste my precious time doing BS repetitive tasks (be they XP grinding, slow long distance travel, or trying to find the best deal by browsing a hundred individual player-run shops). 

That says NOTHING about the quality of the gameplay, NOTHING about how "mindless" the game is, NOTHING about anything other than the notion that it is somehow "noble" to "work" for something in a game is sheer bunk. If you want to, and have the ability to, spend so much time plugged into a virtual world that you would actively ASK for it to waste your time, you are in the minority of adults, and hence your tastes do not reflect something that could conceivably be turned into a M(ASSIVELY)MORPG.

I'll color code these responses so that you might actually be able to follow along.

Yes, I did and I'm sorry you're too thick to see the point, allow me to spell it out for you: 1,259 people on obscure emulated servers that you'd only be able to find if you searched for it or by word of mouth as opposed to AAA games that are being hyped and marketed to death. I can't make the ramifications any simpler for you to comprehend.

 

For players that actually want the breadth and depth of a virtual world, they understand there will be some inconvenience involved so as to build a community. Just how much is necessary has never been perfected and I absolutely agree that some of it was completely needless in the past however we can see what happens when all inconvenience (that could often be remedied by relying on other players) is removed from a MMORPG- you get a shallow, watered-down single player RPG-wannabe lobby game with optional CO-OP. If you think those are the strengths of the MMORPG genre then I'm sure the publishers love you because you'll scoop up and feces they put out.

 

I do, as a player that only has time to spend about 90min at time, 3-4 times a week I can choose to spend my time achieving goals that take more effort than a single 90min span of playtime can reward. It's called having patience and wanting more than what little trinket, bauble or title you get just from logging in- keep enjoying your dumbed down, simplistic, anyone-can-achieve anything by hitting this button gameplay. I pity you for having such low expectations.

 

I've not asked for any kind of waste of time, I've asked for a massively multiplayer game where it takes more than a single player's effort to complete larger-scaled goals. If you don't wish to interact with others there are a multitude of single player games where you don't need to talk to anyone, and you can be the great big asocial hero all by yourself rather than have to actually coordinate with other people to achieve similar goals.

 

Ah, the laughable conclusion- you assert that I'm clearly in the minority of a phantom group you assume you belong to and hope others will believe you are a spokesman for- pathetic. "M(ASSIVELY)MORPG" doesn't mean massively single player and what I speak of has been made into MMORPGs- as I said I'm playing on a private server of one now.

 

I hope you understood this post, and that for further replies I don't have to resort monosyllabically or with pictures.

 

 

 

 

Then if that's what u want don't come on an MMORPG forum asking it. What you're asking for is a virtual world or simulation,  second life in a fantasy world.  There's not a single single-player rpg that gives me that experience, so why in the world would I want it in a massive multiplayer.  I have no problem with this game, but coming into a bakery and asking for a medium well steak sound silly.  

No ones making games for 1200 people.  Millions of people around the world play RPGs, thats the experience a majority of folk want. 

Originally posted by dontadow

Then if that's what u want don't come on an MMORPG forum asking it. What you're asking for is a virtual world or simulation,  second life in a fantasy world.  There's not a single single-player rpg that gives me that experience, so why in the world would I want it in a massive multiplayer.  I have no problem with this game, but coming into a bakery and asking for a medium well steak sound silly.  

No ones making games for 1200 people.  Millions of people around the world play RPGs, thats the experience a majority of folk want. 

Because a MMORPG isn't a single player RPG (unless you count SWTOR), if you're playing MMOs for the gameplay of a single player RPG then why not play a single player RPG?

I never pointed to 1200 being a goal, I'm saying that a relatively unknown server can achieve that with those old-style mechanics thus there is a desire. Really not that difficult to understand.

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

well if you have patience you will know if you are true or false, cause everything that you describe as a fail for mmOrpgs are about GW2 and everything you see as "must" are in TERA, at the end of 2012 we will know if you are true ^^

none of them is copying WoW, so it will be interesting to see how they will end (i dont mention TSW, although is different too from WoW, cause of its really bad polishing as a game, it looks even worse from SWtoR ..! ) 

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Skyy_High

Originally posted by Isane

MMORPGs have a great future.....

Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....

An MMORPG needs:

• Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
• Depth -
• longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
• Community - Only ebver form if it has time to

What it does not need:

 

• Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
  • Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
  • Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
  • Guilds -  Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
  • No End Game

A  Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.

No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that. 

 

Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game. 

 

Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks. 

 

To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game. 

Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.

 

For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.

Bahahaha, 1259, yeah, you sure proved me wrong there. 

"Mindless hack and slash" has nothing to do with what I was talking about, by the way. The gameplay itself can be fun and engaging; my post was criticizing the incessantly droll notion that the fact that MMOs are increasingly being forced to respect a player's time is somehow a bad thing. Traveling everywhere on foot (or even on a mount) is archaic. It was a grand idea when players still had their pants blown off by the entire notion of a virtual world, but I have 50 different worlds I can jump into and out of at will now; the novelty's worn off a bit. Give me something fun to do, or I won't waste my precious time doing BS repetitive tasks (be they XP grinding, slow long distance travel, or trying to find the best deal by browsing a hundred individual player-run shops). 

That says NOTHING about the quality of the gameplay, NOTHING about how "mindless" the game is, NOTHING about anything other than the notion that it is somehow "noble" to "work" for something in a game is sheer bunk. If you want to, and have the ability to, spend so much time plugged into a virtual world that you would actively ASK for it to waste your time, you are in the minority of adults, and hence your tastes do not reflect something that could conceivably be turned into a M(ASSIVELY)MORPG.

I'll color code these responses so that you might actually be able to follow along.

Yes, I did and I'm sorry you're too thick to see the point, allow me to spell it out for you: 1,259 people on obscure emulated servers that you'd only be able to find if you searched for it or by word of mouth as opposed to AAA games that are being hyped and marketed to death. I can't make the ramifications any simpler for you to comprehend.

 

For players that actually want the breadth and depth of a virtual world, they understand there will be some inconvenience involved so as to build a community. Just how much is necessary has never been perfected and I absolutely agree that some of it was completely needless in the past however we can see what happens when all inconvenience (that could often be remedied by relying on other players) is removed from a MMORPG- you get a shallow, watered-down single player RPG-wannabe lobby game with optional CO-OP. If you think those are the strengths of the MMORPG genre then I'm sure the publishers love you because you'll scoop up and feces they put out.

 

I do, as a player that only has time to spend about 90min at time, 3-4 times a week I can choose to spend my time achieving goals that take more effort than a single 90min span of playtime can reward. It's called having patience and wanting more than what little trinket, bauble or title you get just from logging in- keep enjoying your dumbed down, simplistic, anyone-can-achieve anything by hitting this button gameplay. I pity you for having such low expectations.

 

I've not asked for any kind of waste of time, I've asked for a massively multiplayer game where it takes more than a single player's effort to complete larger-scaled goals. If you don't wish to interact with others there are a multitude of single player games where you don't need to talk to anyone, and you can be the great big asocial hero all by yourself rather than have to actually coordinate with other people to achieve similar goals.

 

Ah, the laughable conclusion- you assert that I'm clearly in the minority of a phantom group you assume you belong to and hope others will believe you are a spokesman for- pathetic. "M(ASSIVELY)MORPG" doesn't mean massively single player and what I speak of has been made into MMORPGs- as I said I'm playing on a private server of one now.

 

I hope you understood this post, and that for further replies I don't have to resort monosyllabically or with pictures. 

Hey, let's try this: go back and read the post that I initially responded to. No, seriously, go read Isane's post, and my response to it. You jumped on my comment completely prepped and ready to FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT!!! against the "casuals" who are "dumbing down" the MMO genre by making it more focused on "single player" or "asocial" gameplay...uhm, sorry, what the fuck does that have to do with what I was originally laughing at? 

The premise that you need a game to waste your time in order for it to be a social experience is flawed. You can have challenges that require a significant time investment to complete without the game wasting your time with stupid petty bullshit, like grinding money and materials for potions, or working your way up a gear treadmill so you have even a chance at beating the content. 

Similarly, the idea that it would be a good idea to eliminate auction houses to "increase player interaction" is bullshit, because it's a false choice; if I'm spending my time trying to find the one person in this godforsaken city selling the pickled rat's asses that I need, I'm NOT spending time with my guild laughing, fighting monsters, and generally being awesome. Buying and selling stuff on an auction house is perfectly serviceable for people who actually like to play the market, but for everyone who DOESN'T, the alternative of having to run around and talk to individuals to try to find what they're looking for is hellish. 

The very idea that a game that didn't let players form guilds [or some other form of player-created semi-permanent groups of indeterminate size, filled with like-minded individuals (and, dare I say, friends)] in insane. Humans are social creatures; I cannot imagine the thought process that went through Isane's skull that made him think that dynamic political parties would somehow be more  compelling to play with on a regular and exclusive basis than established guilds that you have control over, and I have even LESS of an idea how you managed to misinterpret my criticism of his viewpoint as "ZOMG MMOS R CASUAL NOW KTHNX!" 

You're waaaaay too preoccupied with trying to cast me as a villain in your crusade against the evils that plague the MMO world to actually listen to what I have to say, apparently.  

Now, if on the other hand you fully agree with everything Isane said...that's just too bad. That's not a game, that's a medieval-Europe-plus-magic simulation (or whatever other setting you care to talk about, let's not belabor the point, ok?), and it's NOT a stretch to say that most people don't want to play a simulation. The fact that there are emulated servers with decently large (if you can call about a thousand people that) communities really doesn't do much to support your point, since there is always going to be a market for niche interests on the Internet. Your assumption that such communities would scale is, quite simply, unsupported by any sort of data as represented by the MMO market. Yeah, it USED to be that way, back when (as I said) living in the world was simply enough of a thrill that any action in the game was a pleasure in itself. Now, though, it's not enough to live in another world; I already live in a world. Why is my fantasy world making me sit through tedious bullshit that I hate in the real world? 

Sandbox != simulation. Sandbox != time wasting. Single-player sandbox games have managed to figure out how to do sandboxes pretty well without resorting to grindy gameplay or mechanics. If you want a sandbox game where players can shape the market, form political groups, control territory, levy taxes, construct laws, etc, I think that's great. I absolutely do not think that it requires time-wasting mechanics in order to succeed, and I think that the closer you push such a game to simulation-territory, the smaller your audience is going to be. That's kinda ironic, when you think about it, because the entire stated GOAL of these time-wasting mechanics is, according to you, to get players to play together. Funny how it's difficult to play with other people when no one wants to play the game in the first place. 

I'm not against risk, or player agency, or a world shaped by the players with tools given to them by the designers. I'm against bullshit mechanics and blowhards who think that you need to "earn" every scrap of enjoyment you get out of an MMO with an equal or greater amount of tedious effort. Again, I have life for that, and the rewards are better here. 

Oh, last point: players who play MMOs largely single-player, or with just a close group of friends and no one else, aren't going anywhere. Stop trying to shoo them out, and start thinking about how you can structure an MMO so that it plays well for people who are very social AND people who do not want to directly interact with others, but who still want to play in a massive living world filled with people, not NPCs. For example: if your guild declares war on another guild's territory, all non-affiliated players in the area could get a marker on their map declaring that mercenaries are wanted in the area. Give both guilds an opportunity to court aid by offering bounties or just plain wages for unaffiliated players who side with them in the conflict. DO THIS AUTOMATICALLY SO PLAYERS DON'T HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO TO TALK TO IN ORDER TO ASK IF THERE ARE BOUNTIES AVAILABLE. (That's the part where most sandboxes drop the ball: making shit CLEAR and easy to follow, even if you're not devoting your life to following gossip and forum chatter.) Now the guilds have their political intrigue and big strategic warfare, and the "single players" can take part in a massive conflict that is much bigger than them, but they get rewarded for it nonetheless. 

See? Stop with the whole "teh casual menace!" thing. They're not going anywhere. Stop demanding that everyone must earn their fun in a GAME, and instead start offering different players different experiences in the same world, according to each players' wants and goals. You'll end up with a bigger, healthier game. 

I think it'd be really funny to create a real simulation MMO.

Have to log in and drink water/eat a couple of times a day or eventually you die (permadeath)

Have to log in and find somewhere safe to sleep for the night and wait till morning to wake up (in game) and play again (or you eventually die, with permadeath)

Have it take 6-7 months to cross from one side of a continent to another (and you'll probably die (permadeath) along the way)

etc. etc.

Suspend reality to create a good GAME.

GAME.

G

A

M

E

lol