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General Discussion  » I am surprised open world dungeons isnt getting a positve response...

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81 posts found
  deathshroud

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 1382

6/04/12 1:37:54 PM#61
Originally posted by Moaky07

Here on the forums.

 

Folks claim to want sandbox on MMORPG.com, and yet when they are presented with a game utilizing a sandbox mechanic, they spend their time dissing the game.

 

Open World dungeons  helped community in EQ. Run across someone needing the same thing you do, and you team up to get it done.

 

They are giving 3 factions PVP for folks that like it as well.

 

I just dont get it. I wont be playing this game, but it appears to be adding some of the things sandboxers are wanting, yet it still is being flamed. I guess folks expected a UO/SWG type sandbox, but a themepark is exactly how ES plays.  EQ, to be specific, is exactly what I would expect from this ES MMO.

 

Sure the tab target isnt the FPS esque gameplay from the SP games, but it isnt enough to lose ones mind IMO. Like I said...SP sandboxes play just like themeparks, and anyone expecting an Uncle Owen economic sim was kidding themselves.

 

That is my 2 credits worth anyways. /shrug

 you fail to understand what sandbox means, a sandbox cannot exist with 1 mechanic, a sandbox offers multiple mechanics with no set path of utilising them, the player is free to try and do what he likes in any order none are esential to progress but all are possible to progress, even questing can be consdiered a sandbox feature provided doing the quests is becuase the quests are actually fun and interesting and not to grind away levels or unlock the next zone.

A sandbox attempts to create a virtual world of its own, were as a themepark is more like an adventure ride you buy the ticket and you ride the rides in a set order and at the end you end up at the exact same place as the thousands before oyu. With a sanbox, you stake your own claim in a virtual world, choose how you want to play and what want to be. Be it a crafter making furnature, a home decorater a warrior or a hunter, you a free to be whatever you want and venture were you choose, no artifical barriers or level restricted areas, no signs telling you mobs are going to be to tough let the palyer find out for himself.

 

a sandbox does not play like a themepark, a sandbox gives you a field to walk around in were as a themepark gives you a straight road to walk down.

Sandbox is all about choice and all about each aspect being fun, a themepark usually consists of everything not being fun, killing the same mobs over and over to grind levels as quick as possible is not fun, Themeparks are more like coop singleplayer style rpgs, sandboxs are proper mmos that require you to work together with players and interact on a regular basis. Most who try sandboxs and come from a themepark try to play it solo and it doesnt work, you need interaction in a sandbox.

there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  Uhwop

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1355

6/04/12 1:43:37 PM#62
Originally posted by xDayx
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

 

 I'm not sure you entirely picked up on what Badspock was saying. 

When the motivation is rewards, you end up with a playerbase who is primarilly motivated by the rewards and no so much the exploration or social part of the game.  TESO is looking more an more like the typical reward based MMO, in that you kill stuff for drops.  They even said that the better you do in combat the better a drop you'll get. 

And then you use sandboxes as the indicator that people don't play that way.  Of course people in sandboxes don't neccesarilly play that way, it's kind of counter to the idea of a sandbox. 

TESO isn't going to be a sandbox.  They were pretty clear about that.  You don't tell people that you're making your MMO to appeal to the "typical mmo player" if you're making a sandbox.  The implication is that you're making an MMO that focuses on questing, leveling, and killing stuff for "phat lootz". 

Has no one else noticed that they've got all of these articles and interviews now, talking about all these things in TESO, but not once have they mentioned crafting?  I'm not saying that that means there isn't going to be any, just that if the game wasn't all about killing crap for "phat lootz" they would have talked about it by now.  Everything they've talked about has been entirely focused on questing and killing stuff.  Am I the only one that sees that as the primary objective in every other quest grinder?

  deathshroud

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 1382

6/04/12 1:49:23 PM#63
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by xDayx
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

 

 I'm not sure you entirely picked up on what Badspock was saying. 

When the motivation is rewards, you end up with a playerbase who is primarilly motivated by the rewards and no so much the exploration or social part of the game.  TESO is looking more an more like the typical reward based MMO, in that you kill stuff for drops.  They even said that the better you do in combat the better a drop you'll get. 

And then you use sandboxes as the indicator that people don't play that way.  Of course people in sandboxes don't neccesarilly play that way, it's kind of counter to the idea of a sandbox. 

TESO isn't going to be a sandbox.  They were pretty clear about that.  You don't tell people that you're making your MMO to appeal to the "typical mmo player" if you're making a sandbox.  The implication is that you're making an MMO that focuses on questing, leveling, and killing stuff for "phat lootz". 

Has no one else noticed that they've got all of these articles and interviews now, talking about all these things in TESO, but not once have they mentioned crafting?  I'm not saying that that means there isn't going to be any, just that if the game wasn't all about killing crap for "phat lootz" they would have talked about it by now.  Everything they've talked about has been entirely focused on questing and killing stuff.  Am I the only one that sees that as the primary objective in every other quest grinder?

 reward motivation is how themeparks work not sandboxes, i do not recal the last time i palyed a sandbox were i had to grind the same mobs over and over again for hours to get the next levle to move to the next zone to do it all over again, or farm the exact same raid mob 30 times. a themepark mmo plays like a singleplayer game but they make leveling up 10x slower than its needed to be which in turn makes the game repetative and grindy all to warrent their stupid subscription when there is no real involvement from the developers, iN sandboxes you get organised events, GMs there on hand to help and sort out quests for palyers events answer questions etc.

there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 3694

6/04/12 2:20:40 PM#64
Originally posted by deathshroud
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by xDayx
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

 

 I'm not sure you entirely picked up on what Badspock was saying. 

When the motivation is rewards, you end up with a playerbase who is primarilly motivated by the rewards and no so much the exploration or social part of the game.  TESO is looking more an more like the typical reward based MMO, in that you kill stuff for drops.  They even said that the better you do in combat the better a drop you'll get. 

And then you use sandboxes as the indicator that people don't play that way.  Of course people in sandboxes don't neccesarilly play that way, it's kind of counter to the idea of a sandbox. 

TESO isn't going to be a sandbox.  They were pretty clear about that.  You don't tell people that you're making your MMO to appeal to the "typical mmo player" if you're making a sandbox.  The implication is that you're making an MMO that focuses on questing, leveling, and killing stuff for "phat lootz". 

Has no one else noticed that they've got all of these articles and interviews now, talking about all these things in TESO, but not once have they mentioned crafting?  I'm not saying that that means there isn't going to be any, just that if the game wasn't all about killing crap for "phat lootz" they would have talked about it by now.  Everything they've talked about has been entirely focused on questing and killing stuff.  Am I the only one that sees that as the primary objective in every other quest grinder?

 reward motivation is how themeparks work not sandboxes, i do not recal the last time i palyed a sandbox were i had to grind the same mobs over and over again for hours to get the next levle to move to the next zone to do it all over again, or farm the exact same raid mob 30 times. a themepark mmo plays like a singleplayer game but they make leveling up 10x slower than its needed to be which in turn makes the game repetative and grindy all to warrent their stupid subscription when there is no real involvement from the developers, iN sandboxes you get organised events, GMs there on hand to help and sort out quests for palyers events answer questions etc.

to be fair the debate over what is or is not a sandbox is unending and everyone seems to have a different defintion. I dont think it matters if TESO online is or is not a sandbox nor does it matter if TES is or is not a sandbox. What does matter is that they are deviating far from TES and NOT for technical reasons. If there are real technical reasons they really need to come out and be more clear then 'player housing not like people want it'

does your game have rainbow sprinkles and magic ponies!?

  deathshroud

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 1382

6/04/12 2:37:54 PM#65
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by deathshroud
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by xDayx
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

 

 I'm not sure you entirely picked up on what Badspock was saying. 

When the motivation is rewards, you end up with a playerbase who is primarilly motivated by the rewards and no so much the exploration or social part of the game.  TESO is looking more an more like the typical reward based MMO, in that you kill stuff for drops.  They even said that the better you do in combat the better a drop you'll get. 

And then you use sandboxes as the indicator that people don't play that way.  Of course people in sandboxes don't neccesarilly play that way, it's kind of counter to the idea of a sandbox. 

TESO isn't going to be a sandbox.  They were pretty clear about that.  You don't tell people that you're making your MMO to appeal to the "typical mmo player" if you're making a sandbox.  The implication is that you're making an MMO that focuses on questing, leveling, and killing stuff for "phat lootz". 

Has no one else noticed that they've got all of these articles and interviews now, talking about all these things in TESO, but not once have they mentioned crafting?  I'm not saying that that means there isn't going to be any, just that if the game wasn't all about killing crap for "phat lootz" they would have talked about it by now.  Everything they've talked about has been entirely focused on questing and killing stuff.  Am I the only one that sees that as the primary objective in every other quest grinder?

 reward motivation is how themeparks work not sandboxes, i do not recal the last time i palyed a sandbox were i had to grind the same mobs over and over again for hours to get the next levle to move to the next zone to do it all over again, or farm the exact same raid mob 30 times. a themepark mmo plays like a singleplayer game but they make leveling up 10x slower than its needed to be which in turn makes the game repetative and grindy all to warrent their stupid subscription when there is no real involvement from the developers, iN sandboxes you get organised events, GMs there on hand to help and sort out quests for palyers events answer questions etc.

to be fair the debate over what is or is not a sandbox is unending and everyone seems to have a different defintion. I dont think it matters if TESO online is or is not a sandbox nor does it matter if TES is or is not a sandbox. What does matter is that they are deviating far from TES and NOT for technical reasons. If there are real technical reasons they really need to come out and be more clear then 'player housing not like people want it'

 i think archeage will be the first sanbox mmo that will ease gamers used to themeparks into a sandbox style game, it has just about everything \and its palyer housing is very impressive all with a traditional questing and combat system that will make the casual mmo player feel at home. Presonally i was disapointed with archeage because for such a game to have so many awesome features its a shame they didnt try with their 100 developers to go down the twitch based aimbased combat route and isntead settled for soemthing akin to GW2 or WOW. But the rest of its features make it worth keeping an eye on.

there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  User Deleted
6/04/12 5:35:18 PM#66

Open world dungeons aren't a sandbox feature. They existed in plenty of themeparks before like EQ/EQ2/AC/DAoC/etc..

It's a nice decision as i'm tired of instances everywhere, but it is not the kind of thing that would sway most people into suddenly liking the game.

  Olgark

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 271

6/05/12 1:10:18 AM#67
Originally posted by Moaky07

Here on the forums.

 

Folks claim to want sandbox on MMORPG.com, and yet when they are presented with a game utilizing a sandbox mechanic, they spend their time dissing the game.

 

Open World dungeons  helped community in EQ. Run across someone needing the same thing you do, and you team up to get it done.

 

They are giving 3 factions PVP for folks that like it as well.

 

I just dont get it. I wont be playing this game, but it appears to be adding some of the things sandboxers are wanting, yet it still is being flamed. I guess folks expected a UO/SWG type sandbox, but a themepark is exactly how ES plays.  EQ, to be specific, is exactly what I would expect from this ES MMO.

 

Sure the tab target isnt the FPS esque gameplay from the SP games, but it isnt enough to lose ones mind IMO. Like I said...SP sandboxes play just like themeparks, and anyone expecting an Uncle Owen economic sim was kidding themselves.

 

That is my 2 credits worth anyways. /shrug

Its one sandbox mechanic they still have classes and levels involved. SWG and UO had no levels but instead they had skill points that you earnt through using the skill set.

 

I for one am glad to hear about the public dungeons like EQ, UO and Vangard. 3 factions for PvP is a win win. I also hear that each class is not restricted to a certain weapon either. So a Mage could effectivly use a sword and shield and still cast spells. This I will have to see before making a decision on whether I wish to play the game. As it stands now I would rather play Skyrim.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7649

Logic be damned!

6/05/12 10:04:59 AM#68
Originally posted by deathshroud

 reward motivation is how themeparks work not sandboxes, i do not recal the last time i palyed a sandbox were i had to grind the same mobs over and over again for hours to get the next levle to move to the next zone to do it all over again, a themepark mmo plays like a singleplayer game but they make leveling up 10x slower than its needed to be which in turn makes the game repetative and grindy all to warrent their stupid subscription when there is no real involvement from the developers, iN sandboxes you get organised events, GMs there on hand to help and sort out quests for palyers events answer questions etc.

You have some rose colored glasses towards sandboxes or I simply remember them much, much differently.

Grinding mobs/missions for skill ups and money was like... 99% of PvE in UO, SWG, EvE...

Now Playing: D3:RoS
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Quenchster

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/12
Posts: 452

6/06/12 2:03:51 PM#69

Do players need to group for open world dungeons or is there no monster tagging?

  deathshroud

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 1382

6/06/12 3:39:59 PM#70
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by deathshroud

 reward motivation is how themeparks work not sandboxes, i do not recal the last time i palyed a sandbox were i had to grind the same mobs over and over again for hours to get the next levle to move to the next zone to do it all over again, a themepark mmo plays like a singleplayer game but they make leveling up 10x slower than its needed to be which in turn makes the game repetative and grindy all to warrent their stupid subscription when there is no real involvement from the developers, iN sandboxes you get organised events, GMs there on hand to help and sort out quests for palyers events answer questions etc.

You have some rose colored glasses towards sandboxes or I simply remember them much, much differently.

Grinding mobs/missions for skill ups and money was like... 99% of PvE in UO, SWG, EvE...

 SWG wasnt really a full sandbox, although a sandbox is really a mass of game features and progression, but what seperates EVE and UO's mindless pve from a themeparks is that it is 1 of many different ways to progress in the gameworld, if you dont like that sort of gameplay you are not forced to partake in it. However a themepark mmo has only 1 real gameplay type and that is mindless pve.

there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  Comaf

Elite Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1094

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

6/06/12 5:00:49 PM#71
Originally posted by Burntvet

One mechanic does not a sandbox make.

Especially, whenever the devs open their mouths about TESO, it comes out sounding WoW. Which seems to be the only game they feel like making...

The devs have specifically backed away from many of the game play elements we ES fans liked in the various single player titles, some with the excuse "That's too hard....".

As to the specifics of open dungeons, there looks to be so little to do besides combat, that if there are boss spawns or rare spawns, they will be camped forever because there will be .... nothing... else... to... do. These will be camped mercilessly, among other things, by the Bot'ers, and multiboxers, and gold sellers as well.

In the end, it does not matter much to me, because the devs have openly stated they are not making a game true to the ES gameplay, just another MMO with ES on the box.

So they will not be getting my money....

 

ESO is not a sandbox game if sandbox refers to Darkfall and Mortal Online.  However, let's see what it does have in regards to your statement, starting with nothing else to do if the pve just isn't cutting it.

 

There is plenty to do in this type of mmorpg.  However, assuming there will be nothing to do is sadly spoken like yet another gamer who has no concept of three faction pvp.  I cannot blame you, however, especially if your mmorpg experiences started after 2004 with World of Warcraft and the follow up genre of titles.

 

Three faction PvP at last

First let me say that a third faction breaks up the monotony of an unbalanced gaming server where one faction dominates.  Secondly, a third faction adds a wild card in the field, something in a persistant world that you just cannot anticipate.  Your guild alliance might think it has the enemy on the run, and bam...inc third realm behind you.  

 

In a three faction mmorpg you have plenty to do.  As an example, you could log into Dark Age of Camelot right now and spend a lifetime just running the RvR (realm vs realm vs realm) castle zones, defending your own realm or attacking enemy keeps a continent away.  

 

Secondly, the open dungeons have worked for years in DAoC (Darkness Falls and the Atlantean Isles for glass runs) - and by blowing off the instanced crap it means while yes, stuff can get camped - if you read what was said about xp sharing, your group and mine can completely help one another against the exact same mobs and get xp - it's being built as a socially minded mmorpg.

 

Socially Minded MMORPG

This concept of being socially minded escapes so many of the genre these days because they were not there for EQ1, or DAoC, or Asheron's Call.  To them, create a well built fantasy game and it's immediately described as a WoW styled mmorpg - which the reviews are saying (again we must read this stuff before we give opinions) this is farthest from the truth.  Many of these folks who have been let down by the industry year after year have learned to settle for small minded mmorpgs where they have to fight for a right to have a mob, or have to spend most levels soloing content because there's no purpose to sharing and then minimizing XP gain. In ESO this is not the case.  Hence, you cannot kill steal a mob in ESO, you will instead get rewarded for the assist and both gain xp.

 

ESO frightens many who were the same folks who jumped up and down for SW:ToR and now GW2.  They enjoy mediocrity, mirrored classes, 2 or less factions (the less rules and structure the better), and a dummed down genre.  Well guess what.  No one cares if they won't be getting your money - because you will be part of a community that you will feel comfortable in, i.e., other titles.  

 

For those of us who grew up in a depth focused mmorpg environment, for those of us who know what REALM PRIDE is, and cannot wait to defend our territories, or share open dungeons, and build great communities, ESO is the answer.  A shame this makes so many folks ready to bash what will arguably be a much needed bar raiser in an otherwise very vanilla, very childish, and very watered down UN-epic gaming genre.

 

To the developers of ESO, let me just say at least as one fan who came out of the last ten years of Dark Age of Camelot, thank you for having the courage to go above and beyond.  Worry little about those who feel so threatened by a model of an mmorpg that will undoubtedly force the rest of the gaming community to realize that yes, it is true, that they truly can expect more from an otherwise horridly mediocre gaming industry.

 


http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/6457/You-Got-Elder-Scrolls-in-my-MMO.html/page/1

 

Read up and enjoy.

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

6/06/12 5:05:33 PM#72
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Moaky07

Here on the forums.

 

TBH, I like a few of the elements they are offering, including open world dungeons.

 

What I Don't like is the focus on PvP (fuck open world PvP in lvl/ gear/ class based MMORPGs.

This game should have been, IMO, the ultimate directed sandpark PvE MMO. Kind of like Skyrim was for single player.

 

Everything else, including the art, I could forgive and move on from and give the game a good chance.

 

Sandpark? just stop making up new words.

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

6/06/12 5:06:37 PM#73
Originally posted by deathshroud
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by deathshroud

 reward motivation is how themeparks work not sandboxes, i do not recal the last time i palyed a sandbox were i had to grind the same mobs over and over again for hours to get the next levle to move to the next zone to do it all over again, a themepark mmo plays like a singleplayer game but they make leveling up 10x slower than its needed to be which in turn makes the game repetative and grindy all to warrent their stupid subscription when there is no real involvement from the developers, iN sandboxes you get organised events, GMs there on hand to help and sort out quests for palyers events answer questions etc.

You have some rose colored glasses towards sandboxes or I simply remember them much, much differently.

Grinding mobs/missions for skill ups and money was like... 99% of PvE in UO, SWG, EvE...

 SWG wasnt really a full sandbox, although a sandbox is really a mass of game features and progression, but what seperates EVE and UO's mindless pve from a themeparks is that it is 1 of many different ways to progress in the gameworld, if you dont like that sort of gameplay you are not forced to partake in it. However a themepark mmo has only 1 real gameplay type and that is mindless pve.


Yes swg was a full sandbox in every sense of the word.

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2634

6/06/12 6:30:38 PM#74
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by Burntvet

One mechanic does not a sandbox make.

Especially, whenever the devs open their mouths about TESO, it comes out sounding WoW. Which seems to be the only game they feel like making...

The devs have specifically backed away from many of the game play elements we ES fans liked in the various single player titles, some with the excuse "That's too hard....".

As to the specifics of open dungeons, there looks to be so little to do besides combat, that if there are boss spawns or rare spawns, they will be camped forever because there will be .... nothing... else... to... do. These will be camped mercilessly, among other things, by the Bot'ers, and multiboxers, and gold sellers as well.

In the end, it does not matter much to me, because the devs have openly stated they are not making a game true to the ES gameplay, just another MMO with ES on the box.

So they will not be getting my money....

 

ESO is not a sandbox game if sandbox refers to Darkfall and Mortal Online.  However, let's see what it does have in regards to your statement, starting with nothing else to do if the pve just isn't cutting it.

 

There is plenty to do in this type of mmorpg.  However, assuming there will be nothing to do is sadly spoken like yet another gamer who has no concept of three faction pvp.  I cannot blame you, however, especially if your mmorpg experiences started after 2004 with World of Warcraft and the follow up genre of titles.

 

Three faction PvP at last

First let me say that a third faction breaks up the monotony of an unbalanced gaming server where one faction dominates.  Secondly, a third faction adds a wild card in the field, something in a persistant world that you just cannot anticipate.  Your guild alliance might think it has the enemy on the run, and bam...inc third realm behind you.  

 

 

 

 

Socially Minded MMORPG

This concept of being socially minded escapes so many of the genre these days because they were not there for EQ1, or DAoC, or Asheron's Call.  To them, create a well built fantasy game and it's immediately described as a WoW styled mmorpg - which the reviews are saying (again we must read this stuff before we give opinions) this is farthest from the truth.  Many of these folks who have been let down by the industry year after year have learned to settle for small minded mmorpgs where they have to fight for a right to have a mob, or have to spend most levels soloing content because there's no purpose to sharing and then minimizing XP gain. In ESO this is not the case.  Hence, you cannot kill steal a mob in ESO, you will instead get rewarded for the assist and both gain xp.

 

 

For those of us who grew up in a depth focused mmorpg environment, for those of us who know what REALM PRIDE is, and cannot wait to defend our territories, or share open dungeons, and build great communities, ESO is the answer.  A shame this makes so many folks ready to bash what will arguably be a much needed bar raiser in an otherwise very vanilla, very childish, and very watered down UN-epic gaming genre.

 

To the developers of ESO, let me just say at least as one fan who came out of the last ten years of Dark Age of Camelot, thank you for having the courage to go above and beyond.  Worry little about those who feel so threatened by a model of an mmorpg that will undoubtedly force the rest of the gaming community to realize that yes, it is true, that they truly can expect more from an otherwise horridly mediocre gaming industry.

 

 

First, I was responding the the previous poster talking about how "open dungeons" are a sandbox mechanic, which is fine, but it is only a single mechanic, in what the developers themselves have stated will be a themepark game.

Second, I played MUDs a long while before I picked up UO in the old days, so it is possibles I have been playing MMOs longer than you.

Third, This game looks to be all about combat... PvE combat, PvP combat, combat systems, and combat mechanics. That to me is very one dimensional, what is there to do besides combat? And that directly dovetails into whatever you were talking about "socially minded MMO gameplay".. and you mention combat and more combat. What about crafting? What about things like guild politics/war? Housing? Exploration? Guild Cities? Non-combat play? Multiple play styles? Player interdependency? That is what "socially minded MMO" gameplay is about.  Not xp split and anti-kill stealing mechanics.

As for 3 faction PvP, nice, but might end up being a "so what?" if they tie/restrict class and factions. Is 3 faction PvP potentially better than 2 and can it be done well? Sure. But it all depends on implementation and how many, many other things turn out.

 

And all of that does not change the fact, that the devs have said they are stipping out many of the mechanics from the regular ES games to make this thing, and make it play like "other major MMOs" i.e. WoW.

Which is a problem for many ES fans. They can skip all that scrutiny by taking ES off the box, but they are sadly using that as a hook to sell boxes.

 

  Fearum

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1060

6/06/12 7:25:41 PM#75
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by Burntvet

One mechanic does not a sandbox make.

Especially, whenever the devs open their mouths about TESO, it comes out sounding WoW. Which seems to be the only game they feel like making...

The devs have specifically backed away from many of the game play elements we ES fans liked in the various single player titles, some with the excuse "That's too hard....".

As to the specifics of open dungeons, there looks to be so little to do besides combat, that if there are boss spawns or rare spawns, they will be camped forever because there will be .... nothing... else... to... do. These will be camped mercilessly, among other things, by the Bot'ers, and multiboxers, and gold sellers as well.

In the end, it does not matter much to me, because the devs have openly stated they are not making a game true to the ES gameplay, just another MMO with ES on the box.

So they will not be getting my money....

 

ESO is not a sandbox game if sandbox refers to Darkfall and Mortal Online.  However, let's see what it does have in regards to your statement, starting with nothing else to do if the pve just isn't cutting it.

 

There is plenty to do in this type of mmorpg.  However, assuming there will be nothing to do is sadly spoken like yet another gamer who has no concept of three faction pvp.  I cannot blame you, however, especially if your mmorpg experiences started after 2004 with World of Warcraft and the follow up genre of titles.

 

Three faction PvP at last

First let me say that a third faction breaks up the monotony of an unbalanced gaming server where one faction dominates.  Secondly, a third faction adds a wild card in the field, something in a persistant world that you just cannot anticipate.  Your guild alliance might think it has the enemy on the run, and bam...inc third realm behind you.  

 

 

 

 

Socially Minded MMORPG

This concept of being socially minded escapes so many of the genre these days because they were not there for EQ1, or DAoC, or Asheron's Call.  To them, create a well built fantasy game and it's immediately described as a WoW styled mmorpg - which the reviews are saying (again we must read this stuff before we give opinions) this is farthest from the truth.  Many of these folks who have been let down by the industry year after year have learned to settle for small minded mmorpgs where they have to fight for a right to have a mob, or have to spend most levels soloing content because there's no purpose to sharing and then minimizing XP gain. In ESO this is not the case.  Hence, you cannot kill steal a mob in ESO, you will instead get rewarded for the assist and both gain xp.

 

 

For those of us who grew up in a depth focused mmorpg environment, for those of us who know what REALM PRIDE is, and cannot wait to defend our territories, or share open dungeons, and build great communities, ESO is the answer.  A shame this makes so many folks ready to bash what will arguably be a much needed bar raiser in an otherwise very vanilla, very childish, and very watered down UN-epic gaming genre.

 

To the developers of ESO, let me just say at least as one fan who came out of the last ten years of Dark Age of Camelot, thank you for having the courage to go above and beyond.  Worry little about those who feel so threatened by a model of an mmorpg that will undoubtedly force the rest of the gaming community to realize that yes, it is true, that they truly can expect more from an otherwise horridly mediocre gaming industry.

 

 

First, I was responding the the previous poster talking about how "open dungeons" are a sandbox mechanic, which is fine, but it is only a single mechanic, in what the developers themselves have stated will be a themepark game.

Second, I played MUDs a long while before I picked up UO in the old days, so it is possibles I have been playing MMOs longer than you.

Third, This game looks to be all about combat... PvE combat, PvP combat, combat systems, and combat mechanics. That to me is very one dimensional, what is there to do besides combat? And that directly dovetails into whatever you were talking about "socially minded MMO gameplay".. and you mention combat and more combat. What about crafting? What about things like guild politics/war? Housing? Exploration? Guild Cities? Non-combat play? Multiple play styles? Player interdependency? That is what "socially minded MMO" gameplay is about.  Not xp split and anti-kill stealing mechanics.

As for 3 faction PvP, nice, but might end up being a "so what?" if they tie/restrict class and factions. Is 3 faction PvP potentially better than 2 and can it be done well? Sure. But it all depends on implementation and how many, many other things turn out.

 

And all of that does not change the fact, that the devs have said they are stipping out many of the mechanics from the regular ES games to make this thing, and make it play like "other major MMOs" i.e. WoW.

Which is a problem for many ES fans. They can skip all that scrutiny by taking ES off the box, but they are sadly using that as a hook to sell boxes.

 

Here read another review, most of the sruff you are questioning has not been answered yet so you have to wait.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/6457/The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-You-Got-Elder-Scrolls-in-my-MMO.html 

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 3694

6/06/12 8:08:42 PM#76

factions are basically a stupid game design. doesnt matter if there is 2,3,4,5, or 10.

groups of people get together, create a clan, get a teamspeak channel. Then fight another clan..DONE

 

does your game have rainbow sprinkles and magic ponies!?

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4550

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

6/07/12 1:52:18 PM#77
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Moaky07

Here on the forums.

 

TBH, I like a few of the elements they are offering, including open world dungeons.

 

What I Don't like is the focus on PvP (fuck open world PvP in lvl/ gear/ class based MMORPGs.

This game should have been, IMO, the ultimate directed sandpark PvE MMO. Kind of like Skyrim was for single player.

 

Everything else, including the art, I could forgive and move on from and give the game a good chance.

 

this ^ +1

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1279

6/07/12 1:57:03 PM#78
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by xDayx
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

 

I have to agree with Spock. Open dungeons can be great fun. I love doing them in EQ2 for leveling, and Vanguard also handles them brilliantly. The problem is when rare loot drops from mobs in open dungeons, which results in spawn camps that ruin the fun (for both the campers and everyone else grouping in the area.

If loot was the same for all bosses in an open dungeon and there was an incentive to keep moving and clearing - like in Diablo 3 where you would get higher loot multipliers by killing elite mobs on the way to bosses. Or maybe force you to loot something from each of the bosses in an open dungeon to spawn the final boss with the better loot. Basically anything to stop the monotony of spawn camping then I would love to see the return of open dungeons 

I love rare spawn mobs that drop loot specific to that named creature more mmo's need to go back to this way.  Here is how you handle it.  Anyone who hits the mob will get loot off the mob.  End of tagging the mob and crying about stealing the kills.  I get to have my rare spawn/named mobs and you and I both get loot, the end.

 

On open dungeons, they are great in Vanguard and look to be something that this game appears to have gotten right.

  ZigZags

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/23/10
Posts: 334

6/07/12 5:51:34 PM#79

Yay for open dungeons!!!

 

The naysayers are probably people who's MMO experience began in the mid 2000s......think about it, most of us veterans have either grown out of the genre or have super wife aggro

Now: Skyrim
Later: ?
Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  Chrisbox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1161

6/07/12 5:56:40 PM#80

I think alot of people are trying to hard to dislike this game because its not their typical single player elder scrolls game which is 1. expected since its an MMO and 2. Since when is diversity in an IP a bad thing? Therefore that group isn't seeing the great that its going to bring to the MMO industry.  Something with GW2 I felt is that they are incouraging social interaction, and really putting the MMO back in MMORPG.  I think ESO is doing this as well, along with a truck load of other great things such as 3 faction open world pvp, and a combat system that sits in between TERA's and GW2's.   Looking forward to ESO for sure.

Played-Everything
Playing-WoW
Want:Destiny, WoD

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