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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » I am surprised open world dungeons isnt getting a positve response...

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81 posts found
  Ikeda

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/07/10
Posts: 1984

6/04/12 10:40:03 AM#41
Originally posted by Thorbrand

Yet EQ was worth the money and took over a year to max level, plenty of gameplay and content. Oh and we are talking about dungeons not rare spawns I thought.

Todays MMO have maybe 3wks worth of gameplay before any true gamer is done waiting for new content. So todays instance BS is worth all this money? Is better in anyway? You really going to tell me that a game that has years of gameplay is outdated and worse than a game that only has 3wks of gameplay? Please!

Today's MMOs are just trash, instance trash not even worth playing any longer.

I will agree that those games seemed to have WAY more content.  In fact, they did.  I would argue though that the community has grown and changed exponentially.

For example:  

Back in UItima Online, there was a nice harpy cave I'd go hunt in.  I could only kill a hanful or two before they respawned behind me.  Most of the time, the people coming in to farm behind me would help me out as they'd clear behind me.

EQ was Blackburrow.  How many times did you run to kill everything and then just yell "TRAIN" and run to the top to zone out?

Now, those games were SO much smaller.  Imagine that on the scale of a WoW.  I just, it's impossible.  Add to the fact that we used to be able to somewhat POLICE the community back then.  People who were jerks were weeded out and ignored.  None of this name change crap.  Even in WoW, people would get blacklisted.  With the current games, that would be unheard of.  You get blacklisted?  You change your name for 5 bucks.

Ultimately, the problem IMO comes to the idea that 1 person should be able to lay complete waste and ravenge entire communities of wargs, dwarves, evil elves, or the like.  Honestly, what's the Kill-to-death ratio in REAL warfare?  Like 1:20?  And that's because of guns.  What'd be the ratio for sword fighting?  1:5?  1:10?  EACH fight should be a challenge and EACH fight should have it's rewards but we should not make it so that you can just fight fight fight fight fight.

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  McDaniels92

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/12
Posts: 22

6/04/12 10:43:16 AM#42

Because a mechanic has been in sandbox MMOs in the past doesn't mean it is a "sandbox mechanic" or that having it in a game makes taht game a sandbox game.

Sandbox to me means a game that is open, lacks structure to some degree, and really allows if not forces the player to make his or her own fun. Themepark games put the player on a rollercoaster and say "this is how you're going to have fun, the ride is going to go up down, turn over there, and flip over there." Sandbox games throw you in the sandbox, hand you a shovel, and you're on your own...

Public instances in no way affect whether a game is sandbox or themepark... They just don't impact the equation. You can have them in either type of game.

TESO will be a themepark game, that is quite evident at this early date. There will clearly be a very structured single player experience/leveling/storyline in the game, and the end game seems rather traditioal with traditional pvp and probably raiding/dungeons rather than an open world to mold and build upon.

I'm not saying this game will be bad, but it isn't "the sandbox game we've all been waiting for." It's another themepark MMO with a couple twists just like every other MMO since the release of WoW has been. Traditionally the few twists and changes haven't been enough to build a good game, or at least not a game better than WoW already is, but time will tell.

  kevjards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/27/10
Posts: 1446

6/04/12 10:46:21 AM#43
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

totally agree..while playing vanguard i dint give a shit about gear,it was never about the gear.our guild use to just travel and do a dungeon just to say hey we did that one.2yrs  i played that game until one person poisoned the game for us.there is soo much to do and explore in that game it would take a couple of years to do all the content available on one char.thats what i miss more than anything,not dungeon crawling or gear.but i will be going back to VG when it goes f2p.

  xDayx

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 713

6/04/12 11:01:12 AM#44
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

 

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7742

Logic be damned!

6/04/12 11:21:26 AM#45
Originally posted by xDayx
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

The themeparker is the "modern" MMO player by weight of sheer numbers.

 

Now Playing: Destiny

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

6/04/12 11:47:53 AM#46

Public Dungeons are a good idea. Everything else Zenimax is doing isnt.

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  Rophez

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/06
Posts: 46

6/04/12 12:20:17 PM#47
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Public Dungeons are a good idea. Everything else Zenimax is doing isnt.

None of these are good ideas?

  • Clean, high-performance game engine built from the ground up for this title specifically = 100s of enemies on screen at once in pvp.
  • Hubless quest system - explore and level as you like
  • TES lore, world and factions
  • Intelligent mob AI, in which monsters use skills and strategies like players - no silly aggro mechanic.
  • Reduced dependence on 'holy trinity' - any group of competent players can tackle almost all the content.
  • Deck building skill system = lots more variety in characters - more strategic combat
  • Stamina based combat - strategy again: do I block, sprint, use a special skill to interrupt, etc., or do I save stamina.
  • In game factions with interesting faction building techniques and rewards (thieves guild, mages guild, fighters guild, etc.)
  • Weapon skill-up through use.
  • Open dungeons. I really hope there is an open dungeon in the PVP area.
  • 3 faction persistent pvp zone like DAOC had but MORE: capturable villages, towers, keeps, resources.
  • Destructable capture points with siege equipment.
  • There's more, but I'll end with this: A game studio managed by people who have a clue about MMO design.
If you can't admit that those are good ideas, then you have to take a look at your reasoning.  Maybe you have a bias?
  Skymourne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/11
Posts: 359

6/04/12 12:29:20 PM#48
Originally posted by Rophez
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Public Dungeons are a good idea. Everything else Zenimax is doing isnt.

None of these are good ideas?

  • Clean, high-performance game engine built from the ground up for this title specifically = 100s of enemies on screen at once in pvp.
  • Hubless quest system - explore and level as you like
  • TES lore, world and factions
  • Intelligent mob AI, in which monsters use skills and strategies like players - no silly aggro mechanic.
  • Reduced dependence on 'holy trinity' - any group of competent players can tackle almost all the content.
  • Deck building skill system = lots more variety in characters - more strategic combat
  • Stamina based combat - strategy again: do I block, sprint, use a special skill to interrupt, etc., or do I save stamina.
  • In game factions with interesting faction building techniques and rewards (thieves guild, mages guild, fighters guild, etc.)
  • Weapon skill-up through use.
  • Open dungeons. I really hope there is an open dungeon in the PVP area.
  • 3 faction persistent pvp zone like DAOC had but MORE: capturable villages, towers, keeps, resources.
  • Destructable capture points with siege equipment.
  • There's more, but I'll end with this: A game studio managed by people who have a clue about MMO design.
If you can't admit that those are good ideas, then you have to take a look at your reasoning.  Maybe you have a bias?

you make it sound great. you really do, but i absolutely have to remain skeptical at least for the time being. We have been promised the moon by a myriad of dev teams, and until i see everything functioning in tandem, i'll remain skeptical.  that's not to say your list doesn't sound wonderful. It does.  I just can't buy it...yet.

  Rophez

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/06
Posts: 46

6/04/12 12:31:57 PM#49
Originally posted by Skymourne
Originally posted by Rophez
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Public Dungeons are a good idea. Everything else Zenimax is doing isnt.

None of these are good ideas?

  • Clean, high-performance game engine built from the ground up for this title specifically = 100s of enemies on screen at once in pvp.
  • Hubless quest system - explore and level as you like
  • TES lore, world and factions
  • Intelligent mob AI, in which monsters use skills and strategies like players - no silly aggro mechanic.
  • Reduced dependence on 'holy trinity' - any group of competent players can tackle almost all the content.
  • Deck building skill system = lots more variety in characters - more strategic combat
  • Stamina based combat - strategy again: do I block, sprint, use a special skill to interrupt, etc., or do I save stamina.
  • In game factions with interesting faction building techniques and rewards (thieves guild, mages guild, fighters guild, etc.)
  • Weapon skill-up through use.
  • Open dungeons. I really hope there is an open dungeon in the PVP area.
  • 3 faction persistent pvp zone like DAOC had but MORE: capturable villages, towers, keeps, resources.
  • Destructable capture points with siege equipment.
  • There's more, but I'll end with this: A game studio managed by people who have a clue about MMO design.
If you can't admit that those are good ideas, then you have to take a look at your reasoning.  Maybe you have a bias?

you make it sound great. you really do, but i absolutely have to remain skeptical at least for the time being. We have been promised the moon by a myriad of dev teams, and until i see everything functioning in tandem, i'll remain skeptical.  that's not to say your list doesn't sound wonderful. It does.  I just can't buy it...yet.

Absolutely understandable.  It makes sense to be cautiously optimistic.  We've all been burned by false promises and failed implementations.  I just think it's crazy how some people are absolutely certain this game is 'going to fail' - it almost makes me think they work for some competitor or something.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

6/04/12 12:33:30 PM#50
Rophez, I agree

On top of that they are keeping crafting like in skyrim, not the boring old wow clone pattern system.

But once the sheeple get on the band wagon no amount of facts to counter their opinions will change their minds, its THAT important they don't loose face.
  Skymourne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/11
Posts: 359

6/04/12 12:41:00 PM#51
Originally posted by Rophez
Originally posted by Skymourne
Originally posted by Rophez
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Public Dungeons are a good idea. Everything else Zenimax is doing isnt.

None of these are good ideas?

  • Clean, high-performance game engine built from the ground up for this title specifically = 100s of enemies on screen at once in pvp.
  • Hubless quest system - explore and level as you like
  • TES lore, world and factions
  • Intelligent mob AI, in which monsters use skills and strategies like players - no silly aggro mechanic.
  • Reduced dependence on 'holy trinity' - any group of competent players can tackle almost all the content.
  • Deck building skill system = lots more variety in characters - more strategic combat
  • Stamina based combat - strategy again: do I block, sprint, use a special skill to interrupt, etc., or do I save stamina.
  • In game factions with interesting faction building techniques and rewards (thieves guild, mages guild, fighters guild, etc.)
  • Weapon skill-up through use.
  • Open dungeons. I really hope there is an open dungeon in the PVP area.
  • 3 faction persistent pvp zone like DAOC had but MORE: capturable villages, towers, keeps, resources.
  • Destructable capture points with siege equipment.
  • There's more, but I'll end with this: A game studio managed by people who have a clue about MMO design.
If you can't admit that those are good ideas, then you have to take a look at your reasoning.  Maybe you have a bias?

you make it sound great. you really do, but i absolutely have to remain skeptical at least for the time being. We have been promised the moon by a myriad of dev teams, and until i see everything functioning in tandem, i'll remain skeptical.  that's not to say your list doesn't sound wonderful. It does.  I just can't buy it...yet.

Absolutely understandable.  It makes sense to be cautiously optimistic.  We've all been burned by false promises and failed implementations.  I just think it's crazy how some people are absolutely certain this game is 'going to fail' - it almost makes me think they work for some competitor or something.

I see what you're saying, and admitedly, i took the news about this game rather poorly myself.  I have been playing these games since ES: Arena and at first, this was a huge slap in the face.  Truth be told, they could have made TESO as a lot of us envision that it should have been, however, i am making a real attempt to give them the benefit of the doubt while they turn the gameplay on it's head.  I may be completely blown away. I may not, but if they manage to capture some of that ES magic in there with the elements you mention, it might just be ok.  We will see.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

6/04/12 12:43:17 PM#52

It's largely the same issue that was addressed before. Lots of people wanted a multiplayer elder scrolls game or elderscrolls mmo. That meant one that played like the last three titles though. That's not what this game is, so that's not making them happy.

 

They have seen the very real possibility of a game like it in Darkfall, Tera, Raiderz, Mortal Online, Chronicles of Spellborn, and to a lesser degree Tabula Rasa, Dungeons and Dragons Online, DCUO, Champions Online, and games of their kin.

 

Instead the first announcement is a tab target class based game with pretty traditional combat elements and the addition of a block button (which DCUO, Champs, DDO, Tera, Raiderz, and even Aion has, though aion is dependent on class).

 

So essentially yes, there are a lot of surrounding features that sound great. But unless the core mechanics are there, it doesn't really mean much for the long run.

 

As for the open world dungeons I already said my piece on that, with a very similar comment to this one...

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  User Deleted
6/04/12 12:45:26 PM#53
Originally posted by xDayx
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

 

I have to agree with Spock. Open dungeons can be great fun. I love doing them in EQ2 for leveling, and Vanguard also handles them brilliantly. The problem is when rare loot drops from mobs in open dungeons, which results in spawn camps that ruin the fun (for both the campers and everyone else grouping in the area.

If loot was the same for all bosses in an open dungeon and there was an incentive to keep moving and clearing - like in Diablo 3 where you would get higher loot multipliers by killing elite mobs on the way to bosses. Or maybe force you to loot something from each of the bosses in an open dungeon to spawn the final boss with the better loot. Basically anything to stop the monotony of spawn camping then I would love to see the return of open dungeons 

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

6/04/12 12:48:16 PM#54

OP:

to be honest 'open-dingeon' is barely even a feature. Its pretty much standard assumption in the MMO I play I dont see why not having ones head up ones a$$ is now considered a 'feature'

Correlation does not imply causation

  tkobo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/06
Posts: 472

Current MMO dev teams = Keystone cops.A pure comedy of errors,sadly its not as intentional.

6/04/12 12:53:13 PM#55

Open world dungeons are only a good thing when the world is big enough that people are spread out enough to not be all lined up and competing for the same localized things.

Especially in a quest,or gear drop,etc... based game.

The game world has to be big enough that when you go out into the "wilds",they are wilds.That you dont run into 10's of other people all exploring the same thing.They make the world big enough,with enough open world dungeons that the players are not constantly  tripping over other players ,and they will have something of value.

If they make the game and the open world dungeons so limited in size and number as to have far too many players basically experiencing the same content at the same time,theyve thrown away the benefits open world has to offer.

 

  xDayx

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 713

6/04/12 12:53:39 PM#56
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by xDayx
Originally posted by BadSpock

The "modern" MMO player is motivated by reward, not adventure.

Open world dungeons work when the motivation is adventure, not when the motivation is reward.

When the motivation is reward, expect camping, griefing, and a complete lack of all the positive social variables that the TESO devs claim open world dungeons bring.

They are living in the past with this design - it can work but requires the game to be about something other than loot.

All signs are pointing to that not being the case in TESO.

I think your generalizing modern mmo players. I know many people who play current sandboxes(incl. even younger people) that arent motivated solely by reward. 

Feel free and generalize themeparkers all you want though.

 

I have to agree with Spock. Open dungeons can be great fun. I love doing them in EQ2 for leveling, and Vanguard also handles them brilliantly. The problem is when rare loot drops from mobs in open dungeons, which results in spawn camps that ruin the fun (for both the campers and everyone else grouping in the area.

If loot was the same for all bosses in an open dungeon and there was an incentive to keep moving and clearing - like in Diablo 3 where you would get higher loot multipliers by killing elite mobs on the way to bosses. Or maybe force you to loot something from each of the bosses in an open dungeon to spawn the final boss with the better loot. Basically anything to stop the monotony of spawn camping then I would love to see the return of open dungeons 

Thats why you need full pvp also in the dungeon. If you dont like the other group in said dungeon and you are good enough, try to remove them from it.

  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2392

6/04/12 12:58:09 PM#57

Hero engine yuck (ohoho this is a joke troll chill braws)

No i love them also open world dungeons cheer.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6511

"I fight so you don't have to."

6/04/12 1:00:53 PM#58

Open world dungeons is a sandbox mechanics? 

I guess it just shows how far instancing has gone in the ThemePark sub-genre, when people think a non-instanced dungeon is a sandbox mechanic.

  Rophez

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/06
Posts: 46

6/04/12 1:03:50 PM#59
Originally posted by Yamota

Open world dungeons is a sandbox mechanics? 

I guess it just shows how far instancing has gone in the ThemePark sub-genre, when people think a non-instanced dungeon is a sandbox mechanic.

Sad to say, but Thempark isn't a sub-genre anymore.

  Uhwop

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1658

6/04/12 1:27:53 PM#60
Originally posted by kevjards
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by kevjards

there is no point in them making a game that does'nt appeal to the masses.

 

Except to create a new 'masses'

 

not going to happen..if anything mmo players are in decline because they are sick of the same shit..notice companies all reverting to f2p cos they cant sustain on normal subs..apart from the odd one or two.WOW just got lucky..if you call it an anomoly.and its not a case of the game is great.people just dont want to move because of all the time invested in the game..understandable i suppose.

And with all the bad mouthing about Teso ,they are off to a bad start before anyone has seen this game.i have played all sorts of mmo.albeit i am no expert but even i am getting totally sick of the same ol shit..so much so i ordered 4 single player rpg's to tide me over..witcher 1&2 ,skyrim,gothic 3,oh and gothic 4 cos it was really cheap..so thats 5 actually.i guess peoples needs are changing has they get older..one thing is for sure we will never see a game with 10 million subs again..too much for people to choose from these days.everyone is spread out.

 This doesn't make any sense.  I can't tell if you came out of your own context of what you're trying to say, or if I did actually understand what you're saying.

It's the "not going to happen" part.  What exactly are you saying isn't goin to happen?

You say that people are tired of the same old same old.  The guy you quoted, if I"m correct, was referring to a new "masses" as in creating a new sandbox mass instead of continually trying to appeal to the casual themepark masses. 

Like you even pointed out, game after game keeps converting to F2P.  Coinsidentally these games are all themeparks.

So lets put it all tother.

Developers keep making themepark after themepark.

Each MMO release really does just boil down to the same gameplay you see in every other game.  A few changes here and there would seem to not be having enough of an impact as we can see each game not really doing as well as the studios would expect of them.

People when they get tired of the same MMO experience after same MMO experience would seem to be moving away from the MMO genre.  I can't disagree with this idea either.  Most people I know that play MMO's don't move on to another MMO, they stop playing MMO's.  Most of them were WoW players, and most of them say the same thing, I already played WoW and dont' want to do the same thing in another MMO.  I don't want to do the same thing in anoher MMO seems to be a recurring sentiment of most of the people I know who played MMO's.

Taking those things into consideration, wouldn't it be safe to assume that people arren't tired of the genre, but of the games being offered within the genre?  And if it's the game that are being offered, because they all seem to boil down to being the same game, woudln't it be safe to assume that it's time to do "something different". 

If it's time to do "something different" and the only thing we've been seeing, game after game, is the same themepark forumulat that a growing number of people are simply getting tired of, wouldn't something different be a sandbox? 

I couldn't tell if you were saying that it wouldn't happen because people are getting tired of themeparks, because people are just tired of MMO's, or because there isn't that big a market for MMO's in general because most people aren't really interested in MMO's outside of WoW.

 

 

At the same time, all of that ^^ is also why people dont' care so much about the open dungeon.  OK, cool, it's just more of the same with a couple of attempted gimmicks to try and pull people in, while still serving them the same old same old. 

When you read what they're saying, or watch the video interviews, they're not saying anything new.  They're doing the exact same thing that every other studio did before them.  They're telling you the same thing every other studio tells you, only they're saying it slightly different to make it sound like you're being told something new.  The truth is it's not new.  It's the same thing we've been served before, with yet another skin.

Vast immense world.  An emphasis on playing together.  Hot bar combat, with controlls like WoW, but we're throwing in a stam bar and what ammounts to a combo meter.  Non hub based questing, but POI based questing.  3 faction pvp.  Some open dungeons.  Events.  No need to form groups.  Instanced small group dungeons.  Raid dugneons. 

Is that not what every other MMO of late is also pitching?  Public dungeons is neither new, nor novel, nor is it something that only TESO has decided to "reimagine". 

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