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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Permadeath Hate question. Lets see how far this hate goes.

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92 posts found
  exdeathbr

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 120

 
OP  5/31/12 2:29:43 PM#1

Many users here complain alot about permadeath, and not just about some specific form of permadeath but many times every single permadeath idea people post here. And not only they complain as in "I would not play this game" but as in "it shouldnt be done, EVER, if you want permadeath just delete your char after you die".

 

To see how far this goes, I decided to propose some ultra light version of permadeath here and ask if the permadeath haters here would like it. and would not be like  "if you want pemadeath just delete your char when you die, you dont need to impose it on other players."

 

Anyway, the permadeath idea and how it works:

The game works like this:

-The players, when they log with a char that never died, start in a universe A.

-If a player dies one time he will goes to universe B.

-UNIVERSE A IS 100% (NOT 99.999999%) LIKE UNIVERSE B, with same rules, gameplay...

-The only difference is that when you die in universe B you will continue in universe B

-You can't go from universe B to A

-You can't go from universe A to B (unless dying as I said).

-You can delete your chars if you want ( to go again to pemadeath universe or just because you want to make a new char [or delete the old one] because of some reason.

-To make stuff easier to permadeath haters (and so to make a player dies when he start to go to universe B have the SAME gameplay as universe A players), lets assume this game DONT have full loot. So you can just die and go to universe B when you start the game if you want to go straight to universe B and will not start without itens and so with a different gameplay than universe A guys that start with items.

 

In fact there I have a even softer idea of permadeath here, but since this idea not exactly counts as permadeath (well even this one I am posting here is barely pemadeath) I will not post it right now, and this idea will be on maybe another thread.

 

So the idea of the poll is to ask if people would start to play the game and complain about the permadeath system of the game (or complain while it is in development saying it NEED be reversed to a no permadeath game). Like those guys that play day z and complain about it being permadeath saying developer should remove it, or the guys that complain on gaming forums in the first time they see the info about the day z game when they see it have permadeath.

 

PS: I would not even like some of permadeath ideas, the "die one time I delete your char (no universe B stuff), all servers with it" is one of them (but i think this would like it  some very specific mmorpg ideas"). This poll is not about me, is about about  the "no permadeath, ever, and with ever I am talking about all games and servers developed" and seeing if this semi permadeath idea would bypass their "no permadeath in mmorpg games, ever" rule.

Would you like this pemadeath Idea?

Yes, I like it.
No, I dont like
I am not one of those permadeath haters you complain about.
(login to vote)
  mrw0lf

Novice Member

Joined: 4/09/05
Posts: 2311

5/31/12 2:34:08 PM#2

That's not a permadeath mechanic, that's just 2 servers with different death rulesets.

Imo on paper, many people who complain of permadeath haven't actually played a game with it. It's a prime example of many people not having a clue about rulesets and how mechanics actually play out in reality as opposed to what they conceive in their heads.

Look at the DayZ mod, that's a form of pdeath with ffa, fullloot, pvp and the reality of the mechanic is some of the most thrilling game play available, despite some of the most buggy assed gameing available people are still flocking to it.

-----
“The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.”

  WhiteLantern

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 2778

5/31/12 2:34:55 PM#3

Providing all of your wording is correct, and that you actually mean "-UNIVERSE A IS 100% (NOT 99.999999%) LIKE UNIVERSE B.", then I would say that sound nothing remotely like permadeath.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Am I feeding them again? I can hardly tell these days.

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

5/31/12 2:35:03 PM#4

Sounds like the old Survivor title in GW1.  Get to certain XP thresholds without dying and you got a cool title.  Died before then and you keep whatever rank you have, but couldn't attempt it again on that character.

 

This is a matter of prestige, not permadeath.

 

Hating haters makes you a hater, too.  Consider that a game with permadeath should be designed around the concept.  Most people are angry about permadeath because you clowns go 'LOL LETS PUT PERMADEATH IN <CURRENT POPULAR MMO> YEAH THATS A GREAT IDEA'.

  DvR7

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 1

5/31/12 2:35:37 PM#5

ermm isn't this how every "hardcore" league works in ARPG'S?

Its a good system, thats why ARPG'S use it  alot.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

5/31/12 2:35:41 PM#6
Originally posted by exdeathbr

Many users here complain alot about permadeath, and not just about some specific form of permadeath but many times every single permadeath idea people post here. And not only they complain as in "I would not play this game" but as in "it shouldnt be done, EVER, if you want permadeath just delete your char after you die".

 

To see how far this goes, I decided to propose some ultra light version of permadeath here and ask if the permadeath haters here would like it. and would not be like  "if you want pemadeath just delete your char when you die, you dont need to impose it on other players."

 

Anyway, the permadeath idea and how it works:

The game works like this:

-The players, when they log with a char that never died start in a universe A.

-If a player dies one time he will goes to universe B.

-UNIVERSE B IS 100% (NOT 99.999999%) LIKE UNIVERSE B.

-The only difference is that when you die in universe B you will continue in universe B

-You can't go from universe B to A

-You can't go to universe A to B (unless dying as I said).

-To make stuff easier to permadeath haters (that sometimes complain about full loot), lets assume this game DONT have full loot, so you can just die and go to universe B when you start the game if you want to go straight to universe B.

In fact there I have a even softer idea of permadeath here, but since this idea not exactly counts as permadeath (well even this one I am posting here is barely pemadeath) I will not post it right now, and this idea will be on maybe another thread.

I don't hate permadeath, but it must make sense in the context of the game.  I'm not sure permadeath makes sense in MMORPG games simply because these games are meant for character building.

Day Z pulls it off because it's sort of a hybrid where life expectancy is short due to an extremely harsh environment. Life expectancy is measured in minutes, hours and maybe days if you are doing well.  

I think in MMO games, Full-loot is close enough to permadeath to be a good replacement.  You can even factor in some kills point loss if you want to make it more harsh, but not quite permadeath.  

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/31/12 2:36:54 PM#7

It's not 99.9999% like Universe A, except for these ways that it's not like Universe A.  Got it.  I think.  Wait, no, that makes it less than 100% the same ;)

I voted no mostly so I could play with friends who haven't died yet (or if I haven't died yet.)  If joining Universe A in the first place is optional, I'd vote yes and never touch Universe A (thereby never engaging with permadeath at all -- much like how I play Diablo 3.)

  stragen001

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 1737

Mr Flibble is VERY cross

5/31/12 2:37:12 PM#8

I think the permadeath haters will like it, but the people who actually like permadeath will hate it, since its not actually permadeath. You dont lose anything if you die, you just get moved to a different server with all the other people that died.

Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/31/12 2:42:12 PM#9

The danger with this is the toxic superiority/inferiority complexs it breeds - you're deliberately creating two tiers of players with universe A players "superior" to universe-B players. 

It might work, but my gut instinct is that it wouldn't be a healthy community.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

5/31/12 2:42:15 PM#10
Originally posted by stragen001

I think the permadeath haters will like it, but the people who actually like permadeath will hate it, since its not actually permadeath. You dont lose anything if you die, you just get moved to a different server with all the other people that died.

Well.. for the ppl at Server A it is permadeath. If someone dies, he is gone. Thats it. For the person who dies its partial,, because he dont see the ppl he was used to, he is in another world, with other ppl.. everything may be the same, but not the ppl.

I like it.. but i was never one of those permadeath haters anyway. ;)

  L0C0Man

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/09
Posts: 919

5/31/12 2:47:39 PM#11

I'd play if it was a good game. I didn't vote, though, because mostly the idea seems to be whether you play it or not based on the permadeath feature. For me, it wouldn't even be something I'd care about. If the game is good, I'll play it, if it isn't good, I wouldn't play it. Chances are I'd go straight to server B (if I couldn't create a char there, I'd kill my char right after char creation).

In short, an optional permadeath that can be 100% ignored and doesn't bother me at all would not even be a factor in me deciding to play or not a game (the game itself is)... but a non optional one alone would be a deciding factor for me not playing a game, no matter how good it is.

What can men do against such reckless hate?

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

5/31/12 2:48:07 PM#12

Do it like Shayia does and only the hardcore players will play with permadeath but it can be rez'd or you use a IM item to not be deleted but you are far more powerful than a normal or hardmode characters.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10425

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/31/12 2:55:11 PM#13


Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by stragen001 I think the permadeath haters will like it, but the people who actually like permadeath will hate it, since its not actually permadeath. You dont lose anything if you die, you just get moved to a different server with all the other people that died.
Well.. for the ppl at Server A it is permadeath. If someone dies, he is gone. Thats it. For the person who dies its partial,, because he dont see the ppl he was used to, he is in another world, with other ppl.. everything may be the same, but not the ppl.

I like it.. but i was never one of those permadeath haters anyway. ;)




Eventually everyone would be on server B. I think I'm missing something because this doesn't seem like permadeath.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  aslan132

Elite Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 295

5/31/12 3:05:08 PM#14

Im not a permadeath hater, per se. But i do beleive, like everything else, it has a place it belongs, and a place it doesnt. Like someone else mentioned, in most MMOs, the whole point of the game is character progression, either in levels, gear or skills. The focus is on character longevity and theres no place for characters with short life spans. 

Permadeath in DayZ for example works, because the lifespan of your character doesnt impact the playability of the mod. When you first create a character, you fully expect to only have need of that character for a few hours, maybe a day or two. And if you die, you just create a new one, find a new gun/rifle, some cans of beans, maybe alittle scrap metal, and voila... you are now picking right back up where you left off, as if you had never died. Theres no character progression to lose.

Thats the only way permadeath works. If theres no investment in your character, and you never lose anything relavent when dying. If you put in 100+ hours of gameplay just leveling, then maybe another 100+ hours of grinding gear, permadeath has real consequences and therefore just wont work. 

The same can be applied to full-loot PVP. It can be done right, and it can be done wrong. If the items are replacable, people are going to be more receptive to the idea. If you can lose something that took months to acquire, youre taking a niche idea and making it worse. There just isnt going to be population to support that.

  exdeathbr

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 120

 
OP  5/31/12 3:07:14 PM#15
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by stragen001 I think the permadeath haters will like it, but the people who actually like permadeath will hate it, since its not actually permadeath. You dont lose anything if you die, you just get moved to a different server with all the other people that died.
Well.. for the ppl at Server A it is permadeath. If someone dies, he is gone. Thats it. For the person who dies its partial,, because he dont see the ppl he was used to, he is in another world, with other ppl.. everything may be the same, but not the ppl.

 

I like it.. but i was never one of those permadeath haters anyway. ;)




Eventually everyone would be on server B. I think I'm missing something because this doesn't seem like permadeath.

 

You can just delete your character and start again, or just make a new one, if you want to be on permadeath universe again.

Yes, this idea doenst sounds like permadeath. But that was the idea, remove almost everything from permadeath and see if even with that people would still complain.

 

Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by stragen001

I think the permadeath haters will like it, but the people who actually like permadeath will hate it, since its not actually permadeath. You dont lose anything if you die, you just get moved to a different server with all the other people that died.

Well.. for the ppl at Server A it is permadeath. If someone dies, he is gone. Thats it. For the person who dies its partial,, because he dont see the ppl he was used to, he is in another world, with other ppl.. everything may be the same, but not the ppl.

I like it.. but i was never one of those permadeath haters anyway. ;)

The guys that hates permadeath, would suposedly not play in universe A, they would find a way to die and go to universe B, where he would play the way he like (no permadeath).

This first layer of the game (universe A) is suposedly a permadeath game, if you want to continue with your friends, just make a new char, this is something you would need to do anyway, if this was a true permadeath game.

 

 

Originally posted by maplestone

The danger with this is the toxic superiority/inferiority complexs it breeds - you're deliberately creating two tiers of players with universe A players "superior" to universe-B players. 

It might work, but my gut instinct is that it wouldn't be a healthy community.

The idea here is not about superiority is about some players not liking permadeath. In normal mmorpg (that allow players to delete their chars) players would be able to delete their char everytime they die. Because in my idea you lose almost nothing when you die, this would be basically the same thing. Yet I dont see some inferiority complex with the guys that dont do it or some superiority complex with the guys that do it.

  KatlaOdindottir

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/10
Posts: 150

5/31/12 3:13:03 PM#16

World of Darkness is going to have permadeath to a certain extent, and that WILL be a hit :D

www.daneslaw.com

@GamerKurisu

Awaiting Darkfall Unholy Wars

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/31/12 3:55:47 PM#17
Originally posted by exdeathbr

The idea here is not about superiority is about some players not liking permadeath. In normal mmorpg (that allow players to delete their chars) players would be able to delete their char everytime they die. Because in my idea you lose almost nothing when you die, this would be basically the same thing. Yet I dont see some inferiority complex with the guys that dont do it or some superiority complex with the guys that do it.

You're throwing new characters into a world populated by people who think the world that player is going to end up in is beneath them.  I can't help but think that is going to lead to a bad social experience.

Logically, if you are not a permadeath-seeking player, the very first thing you'd want to do with a new character is commit suicide so that you avoided having to deal with the permadeath community on server A.

  Z3R01

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/08
Posts: 2457

MMO gamer since 1997

5/31/12 3:59:26 PM#18

Permadeath is fine as long as someone else doesn't cause it.

I prefer Permadeath in Pve type games like Diablo, Minecraft/Terraria & The binding of Isaac. 

Playing: None

Waiting on: None

  exdeathbr

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 120

 
OP  5/31/12 4:24:10 PM#19
Originally posted by maplestone

You're throwing new characters into a world populated by people who think the world that player is going to end up in is beneath them.  I can't help but think that is going to lead to a bad social experience.

Logically, if you are not a permadeath-seeking player, the very first thing you'd want to do with a new character is commit suicide so that you avoided having to deal with the permadeath community on server A.

The player CAN just find the first monster they see, at the moment the start the game, and then just die, to be able to start straight" into the non permadeath part of the game.

In fact I posted the non-full loot part in the ideas, to in some way say "you can just die with your character go straight to permadeath world and not  need to care about starting without gear".

 

 

Also, the permadeath world players arent able to know if the players just died the moment they started the game, because they dont like permadeath or not.

Also, if the player like permadeath, when they die once, they will delete their char and start again with a new char (and in universe A), the only ones that will be in universe B are the ones that dont want permadeath, or the ones that said "i like permadeath, but fuck it, i am liking so much this character I made and so,  I will continue to play with him anyway and not delete it. (but if they really like permadeath they would have a extra permadeath char)"

So if you like permadeath in this game, you will most likely be on universe A and universe B will be populated by the ones that hate permadeath. In the end it will really not be about better or worse players, just about liking permadeath or not, as I said here.

 

 

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3712

RIP City of Heroes!

5/31/12 4:28:07 PM#20

OP, how about this.  When a character is created the player selects a death penalty for that character.

0=no penalty

Penalties increase until the ultimate death penalty

10=permadeath

 

This way, each person can enjoy what they want for their own characters.  The only ones who would feel cheated are those who want to force a specific penalty for other player's characters.

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