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Elder Scrolls Online

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General Discussion  » How combat works in The Elder Scrolls Online

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53 posts found
  Qallidexz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 269

5/25/12 1:20:45 PM#21
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Originally posted by Gurpslord

As for TESO, who cares what the combat is like.  This game has a stench about it that can be smelled for miles.

Like a field of roses.

No...not roses

5000lb bag of rotting feces is closer

I don't get what you hate about it? Just because it's a third person game, with tab targeting and a small hotbar, it sucks? I noticed a lot of those games you listed in your signature have the same features...

  sodade21

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/18/09
Posts: 332

5/25/12 1:22:52 PM#22

the only way to even bother with this game is if it will not have tab targeting and the combat will be more like darkfall online or even tera.. or like its on skyrim... the story and world alone wont win me.

sodade21 Xfire Miniprofile
  Qallidexz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 269

5/25/12 1:31:06 PM#23
Originally posted by sodade21

the only way to even bother with this game is if it will not have tab targeting and the combat will be more like darkfall online or even tera.. or like its on skyrim... the story and world alone wont win me.

I don't get why people are associating this game so much with the former Elder Scrolls games. It's ridiculous. Just because they have the same name. It's NOT like the former ES games, it's a DIFFERENT format. Just like Warcraft III is very different from WoW, they don't step on eachother's toes. If you enjoyed MMO's with tab-targeting and 3rd person views before, you may very well enjoy one that happens to be set in the world of Elder Scrolls.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/25/12 1:37:06 PM#24
Qal: its trendy to hate on it, once the bandwagon is rolling the sheeple flock.
  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1116

5/25/12 1:41:16 PM#25
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Originally posted by Gurpslord

As for TESO, who cares what the combat is like.  This game has a stench about it that can be smelled for miles.

Like a field of roses.

No...not roses

5000lb bag of rotting feces is closer

I don't get what you hate about it? Just because it's a third person game, with tab targeting and a small hotbar, it sucks?

Not just those features, but also the race/faction locks, fixed class based instead of open skill based, 100% soloable "personal" story, formulaic themepark style, no housing because its too hard to do and much more is going to make it suck. Developer Arrogance being the most glaring

 

I noticed a lot of those games you listed in your signature have the same features...

 

Yes..and you should also notice toward the end of my sig where I say most MMOs are crap and the future looks bleak

 

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  Qallidexz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 269

5/25/12 1:51:20 PM#26
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Qal: its trendy to hate on it, once the bandwagon is rolling the sheeple flock.

Fine, then I'm making a new bandwagon. Hop on, you can be my co-pilot. lol

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

5/25/12 1:57:27 PM#27
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Tab targetting.
Combat looks like it'll play out exactly like GW1 with a little GW2 thrown in, wich was effectively exactly the same as WoW with  a limitted skill deck that you build.

 

Yea, that's also the same as EQ which came out in 1999, and DAoC, which came out in 2001. Those games are such WoW clones, srysly.

 Please stop.  Honestly the mockery just comes across as childish.

At no point did I say or even attempt to imply it's a wow clone.

However the truth is, I've playd both EQ and DAoC and neither of them feels anything like WoW combat.  Frankly I'm tired of the well wow uses the same combat as EQ, no, it uses a hotbar and that's it.

I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and i'm sure others will to, and the only thing I can say is, you're wrong.

WoW's combat is appealing to so many people because it brought a certian level of "actiony" feel to it.  It's quicker then most of the games that came before it.  It imcorporated a sense of actually needing a level of skill, even though it's still entirely gear based, that many games before it didn't have.

GW evolved it by limitting the skills and creating a kind of deck style sytem.  But ultimately is was very much a wow modelled combat system becuase it aimed to create a fast, skillbased mechanic that would translate well into the realm of Esports.

This is what a lot of other games sinse wow have been trying to accomplish.  That fast, frantic, skillbased combat system using a hotbar, and most of them don't do it that well.  Even EQ2 is still only like WoW's combat beause it uses a hotbar.  Character movement though feels nothing like WoW.  Fast, as in you move around a lot to either to get in or out of range, to avoid ranges of other classes, to break LoS.  The only game I've played yet that really, truelly copies wow is Rift, it's the exact same thing.  GW is the same in feel, but the skill mechanics are slightly different, that's all.

 

 

  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2188

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

5/25/12 5:21:29 PM#28

For all those complaining about the 'tab 123456' thing.....

First, I didn't get the sense that was what they were saying. I think they were saying in 1 and 2 you will (eventually) have a bank of weapon skills, of which you can load any two at a time (it may be a set for 1 and a set for 2..). But in any case, that means you will likely have to be aware of the situation ahead and pick the two most effective. For example, you may pick two single target skills, knowing there won't be adds. Or the other way around, two aoe skills because its a '10 at a time pull'.

Then, the remaining 4 will be situational skills as well. You have 4 you like to use while kiting, or perhaps a cc set, or perhaps a healing build, etc.

And thus, your key punching pattern will depend on the fight and encounter. One fight will be 1, 2, 1, 1, 2......3....111, 2, 4, 6, 1,2, 112....etc.

Anyway, that may be totally wrong, but it is how I read the article.

Second......

And this is more philosophical. I want everyone to realize that all pc games have their limits. They are limited by the mouse and the keyboard. No matter what, your only tools to play a game consist of one, and only one type of action:

pushing a button

So remember before you doom this 'tab targetting clone'. There will not be a game coming out for the forseeable future that will not consist of pushing a sequence of buttons to play a game.

Because this one and only action is our only way of playing, we will learn through play what sequence works best for us. And over many hours and days of gameplay, patterns will emerge. And for hours and days more, they will be repeated at infinitum.

Finally, we will tire of the sequence of buttons we know so well. And we will move to a new game, where we can once again master a sequence of button pushing to play a game. Until we tire of the  patterns created and move on.

So realize, that nothing will seem very innovative as far as gaming is concerned until we have a tool beyond pressing buttons.

 

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1086

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

5/25/12 6:26:38 PM#29
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

So I read the entire article twice, and the Idea I got from this system is to dumb down combat even further than what WoW did to the MMO genre's combat system?

 

Six slots? REALLY? Much rather have a twitch based system like TES than TESO. Just saying.....it's not impossible either. Look at Planetside 2, they've got some crazy open-world mechanics going on with twitch based combat with THOUSANDS of players on the field at once shoot/fighting each other.

 

The "If i used my weapon more over time it gives me more abilities to use over time" doesn't justify the StoryDriven SWTOR copycat style they're going with the game. It wreaks with "Oh, btw, we're going to instance the game to death" like SWTOR as well. 

 

I don't believe in giving out bits & pieces over time about a product. It only causes confusion & mixed information. I'd much rather they hold on to everything until a month prior to closed beta, and then release all the information at once. The route they're taking with this can only hope to generate horribly negative hype even if it turns out to be half-decent.

 

Continueing to be disappointed over here.

[mod edit]

That was wrong :p

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1086

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

5/25/12 6:51:44 PM#30
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Tab targetting.
Combat looks like it'll play out exactly like GW1 with a little GW2 thrown in, wich was effectively exactly the same as WoW with  a limitted skill deck that you build.

 

Yea, that's also the same as EQ which came out in 1999, and DAoC, which came out in 2001. Those games are such WoW clones, srysly.

 Please stop.  Honestly the mockery just comes across as childish.

At no point did I say or even attempt to imply it's a wow clone.

However the truth is, I've playd both EQ and DAoC and neither of them feels anything like WoW combat.  Frankly I'm tired of the well wow uses the same combat as EQ, no, it uses a hotbar and that's it.

I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and i'm sure others will to, and the only thing I can say is, you're wrong.

WoW's combat is appealing to so many people because it brought a certian level of "actiony" feel to it.  It's quicker then most of the games that came before it.  It imcorporated a sense of actually needing a level of skill, even though it's still entirely gear based, that many games before it didn't have.

GW evolved it by limitting the skills and creating a kind of deck style sytem.  But ultimately is was very much a wow modelled combat system becuase it aimed to create a fast, skillbased mechanic that would translate well into the realm of Esports.

This is what a lot of other games sinse wow have been trying to accomplish.  That fast, frantic, skillbased combat system using a hotbar, and most of them don't do it that well.  Even EQ2 is still only like WoW's combat beause it uses a hotbar.  Character movement though feels nothing like WoW.  Fast, as in you move around a lot to either to get in or out of range, to avoid ranges of other classes, to break LoS.  The only game I've played yet that really, truelly copies wow is Rift, it's the exact same thing.  GW is the same in feel, but the skill mechanics are slightly different, that's all.

 

 

Well lets talk about it.  First we would have to agree what constitutes a copy and what constitutes originality (considering every original idea is inspired by something else).

In my view the real foundation was tab target / hotbar which pre-date WOW.  WOW copied that formula and added its update which you mentioned above. So the originator in this example is a clone itself.  Games were asking you to push numbers to fight something well before WOW.  If you say what WOW added to the hotbar combat is what made it original, then I'd argue a few of the MMOs that came after that you define as clones are actually "original" because they added their twist on the same formula.  

But to look further, in this mechanic, any MMO that has a hotbar could be considered a clone. The skills may be different, etc but its the essentially the same. I just dont believe WOW deserves all the credit for creating it, even if it was in a stylized way.

I personally believe combat in MMOs is an art not a science, its all in the implementation and feel.  EQ2 combat was fun at first but started feeling dated as my hotbar grew 3-5 rows.  Suddenly the static standing there blow for blow (I was a paladin) didnt work for me.  I tried WOW for the first time 2 weeks ago on the starter kit.  I agree its combat is faster and gives a sense of progression, but to me thats all the game focused on.  Going from quest to quest in order to get to the next level to reach the next zone.  Fine, just not my particular play style.  I like to linger in zones and get to know the world.

And thats where I think the 'clones' come in.  To me an MMO is going to be hotbar or action, or hazy mix of both.  I am more partial to the former as it fits closer to how I like to play an RPG.  Slow and thinking like.   What I have found is each 'clone' offers their own twist using hotbars and even the combat was 'copied' I felt each game was different. 

What I do feel is the hotbar combat as a mechanic is getting a bit dated, even if you consider its origins begining in 2004.  Thats almost a decade.

Games like GW2, TSW and TERA follow the same MMO formula, but the twists they add to the combat and interaction with the world is advancing the genre to its next evolution.  That's what will 'destroy' WOW or better stated... the next new thing that WOW was when it was released.  People still play UO, EQ, and EQ2 - so WOW will be no different, but I dont see it being the top of the pack for another decade.

With that said, I am slowly becoming more open to what ESO will deliver. An MMO mechanic (that we all know) covered in an ES context is intriguing.  Ill at least take a peek how they implement to see if they can make what has been done before fresh and fun for one more romp.

 

  Morcelll

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/09
Posts: 412

5/25/12 7:26:30 PM#31
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

So I read the entire article twice, and the Idea I got from this system is to dumb down combat even further than what WoW did to the MMO genre's combat system?

 

Six slots? REALLY? Much rather have a twitch based system like TES than TESO. Just saying.....it's not impossible either. Look at Planetside 2, they've got some crazy open-world mechanics going on with twitch based combat with THOUSANDS of players on the field at once shoot/fighting each other.

 

The "If i used my weapon more over time it gives me more abilities to use over time" doesn't justify the StoryDriven SWTOR copycat style they're going with the game. It wreaks with "Oh, btw, we're going to instance the game to death" like SWTOR as well. 

 

I don't believe in giving out bits & pieces over time about a product. It only causes confusion & mixed information. I'd much rather they hold on to everything until a month prior to closed beta, and then release all the information at once. The route they're taking with this can only hope to generate horribly negative hype even if it turns out to be half-decent.

 

Continueing to be disappointed over here.

Really?  Can you please think about what you just said?  You know, not all of us want twitch based combat systems, I actually prefer an in depth reactionary use of skills with a mixture of some twitch for my MMO's.  When I want pure twitch I play an FPS, or I will play Planetside. 

More importantly, six slots dumbing down the combat system?  Are you serious?  GW1 had one of the most complex/ in depth combat systems and it had only 8 skills.  These are systems that are built more around stuff like Magic the Gathering, and the complexity is in putting together an actual build with those skills.  Whenever you allow players to have access to all skills like in the past 8 years of WoW clones you actually lose out on complexity, and you lose out on identity. 

The real test will be in how the skills are designed, I am curious to see an example of some. 

  Morcelll

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/09
Posts: 412

5/25/12 7:33:43 PM#32
Originally posted by PyrateLV

So TESO Combat is basically going to be - TAB 1 2 3 4 5 6 TAB 1 2 3 4 5 6 TAB 1 2 3 4 5 6

Lol go play GW1 and come back and tell me it is TAB 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, I mean seriously..  First off one of your skills is an ulti, so you're not going to be spamming that.  Second of all, depending on the skill design, this can be a real in depth and awesome system, you will definitely put some situational skills on your bar, so if you spam those you're only going to lose the fight against someone who is good.  Now you may see a mixture of 1 and 2 spam depending on how the weapon skills are designed.

I just wish you guys would stop hating before you see what this game turns into.  Everything I've seen so far actually sounds good, does it sound exactly like the sandboxy TES single player games we are used to?  No, but it does sound like a departure from the whole copycat cast of MMO's we have gotten over the years.  Somebody actually raised a good point in one of these threads, if they made TESO a super awesome sandbox that is really identical to the single player games except with tons of people in them, then who would want to go back and play the single player games?  Of course there would still be some, but most people would probably enjoy that world when it is living and breathing with other players.  That might not even be the case, but it sounds like an interesting thought to me. 

  Morcelll

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/09
Posts: 412

5/25/12 7:36:52 PM#33
Originally posted by Uhwop

It honestly doesn't sound bad to me, but I don't understand the "our interpretation" stuff.  why interpret anything, just transition the ES format over to the MMO.  You don't have to change it.  Everyone playing MMO's has more then likely played and ES game and already knows exactly how it works.

Or have they not noticed that the people who don't play MMO's are also saying that it's turnign them off becuase it's not what they like about the single player games.  Nevermind the amount of people who do play MMO's who are also saying the same thing.

 

Again, it doesn't sound bad to me, but WoW also did the exact same thing.  Hotbar skills and then weapon skills that you had to improve.  They removed the whole weapon skills having an impact becaue people would just exploit mobs to increase a new weapon skill quickly, and it was also redundant.

If I'm a mage, and I want to play a mage, why do I need to have a weapon skill?  Why should I have to worry about raising a weapon skill?  It's not something I ever did in an ES game unless I was intentionally building a battle mage type character.  What they're describing is a system that makes all mages a battlemage type character because every mage is going to have to level a weapon skill, and sinse two or your hotbuttons are dedicated to weapon attacks you'll HAVE to level a weapon.  When a 3rd of your attacks are dedicated weapon attacks you don't get an option to make a character that doesn't rely on using a weapon.

It read to much to me like they were half assing a system by trying to interpret something that doesn't need interpreting.  The only really good thing I got out of it was that they already have the system in place for on use skilling, so they it's not to late for them to do it correctly and impliment the same system used in all the other ES games.

Hopefully enough people show ZeniOnline that they're not happy with this move away from what made character development in the ES so great, and ZeniOnline actually listens to the fans and changes it.  I'm not holding my breathe though.

 

 

PS: Did the developer really say the same thing like 3 times, or did the author of the article just make it seem like the Dev was just repeating himself.  Reaffirming through repatition anyone?  What am I a frigging dog?  Sit, sit, sit, sit, oh good boy!  Will I get a treat if I suddenly develop blind fanaticism?

 

 

I think you have a misconception there, when they're talking about weapon skills they aren't talking about a "skill level" like WoW did.  They are talking about actual skills being attached to those weapons like in GW2, and as you use that weapon you unlock different skills you can use in those slots. 

  Morcelll

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/09
Posts: 412

5/25/12 7:45:30 PM#34
Originally posted by Uhwop

 Please stop.  Honestly the mockery just comes across as childish.

At no point did I say or even attempt to imply it's a wow clone.

However the truth is, I've playd both EQ and DAoC and neither of them feels anything like WoW combat.  Frankly I'm tired of the well wow uses the same combat as EQ, no, it uses a hotbar and that's it.

I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and i'm sure others will to, and the only thing I can say is, you're wrong.

WoW's combat is appealing to so many people because it brought a certian level of "actiony" feel to it.  It's quicker then most of the games that came before it.  It imcorporated a sense of actually needing a level of skill, even though it's still entirely gear based, that many games before it didn't have.

GW evolved it by limitting the skills and creating a kind of deck style sytem.  But ultimately is was very much a wow modelled combat system becuase it aimed to create a fast, skillbased mechanic that would translate well into the realm of Esports.

This is what a lot of other games sinse wow have been trying to accomplish.  That fast, frantic, skillbased combat system using a hotbar, and most of them don't do it that well.  Even EQ2 is still only like WoW's combat beause it uses a hotbar.  Character movement though feels nothing like WoW.  Fast, as in you move around a lot to either to get in or out of range, to avoid ranges of other classes, to break LoS.  The only game I've played yet that really, truelly copies wow is Rift, it's the exact same thing.  GW is the same in feel, but the skill mechanics are slightly different, that's all.

 

 

Can you please research the things you post about more?  Do you realize that the early ArenaNet devs actually stated their whole combat system and skill design was based off of Magic the Gathering?  Wow's system was completely different and severely lacked the skill depth GW1.  If you look at the skills in GW1 you see its based on a sort of conditional thought based play you would see in those card games, however it was wrapped in a real time arena style combat system.  Those games are completely different in design, and for you to say it is pretty much the same thing as WoW shows that you don't really know much about the systems. 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/25/12 7:48:03 PM#35
Lol what's funny is funcom site mtg also and noobs trying to play it like wow are up in arms about the combat. (for the record I like gw2 combat)
  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

5/25/12 9:03:27 PM#36
Originally posted by WardTheGreat
Originally posted by Uhwop

 Please stop.  Honestly the mockery just comes across as childish.

At no point did I say or even attempt to imply it's a wow clone.

However the truth is, I've playd both EQ and DAoC and neither of them feels anything like WoW combat.  Frankly I'm tired of the well wow uses the same combat as EQ, no, it uses a hotbar and that's it.

I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and i'm sure others will to, and the only thing I can say is, you're wrong.

WoW's combat is appealing to so many people because it brought a certian level of "actiony" feel to it.  It's quicker then most of the games that came before it.  It imcorporated a sense of actually needing a level of skill, even though it's still entirely gear based, that many games before it didn't have.

GW evolved it by limitting the skills and creating a kind of deck style sytem.  But ultimately is was very much a wow modelled combat system becuase it aimed to create a fast, skillbased mechanic that would translate well into the realm of Esports.

This is what a lot of other games sinse wow have been trying to accomplish.  That fast, frantic, skillbased combat system using a hotbar, and most of them don't do it that well.  Even EQ2 is still only like WoW's combat beause it uses a hotbar.  Character movement though feels nothing like WoW.  Fast, as in you move around a lot to either to get in or out of range, to avoid ranges of other classes, to break LoS.  The only game I've played yet that really, truelly copies wow is Rift, it's the exact same thing.  GW is the same in feel, but the skill mechanics are slightly different, that's all.

 

 

Can you please research the things you post about more?  Do you realize that the early ArenaNet devs actually stated their whole combat system and skill design was based off of Magic the Gathering?  Wow's system was completely different and severely lacked the skill depth GW1.  If you look at the skills in GW1 you see its based on a sort of conditional thought based play you would see in those card games, however it was wrapped in a real time arena style combat system.  Those games are completely different in design, and for you to say it is pretty much the same thing as WoW shows that you don't really know much about the systems. 

 You seem confused, maybe it's because you didn't read what I wrote.

Skill deck system is one aspect of a mechanic.

It still use a hotbar, with ability cooldowns, and a movement scheme that is more fluid and faster paced then most MMO's before it. 

GW evolved it by limitting the skills and creating a kind of deck style sytem. But ultimately is was very much a wow modelled combat system becuase it aimed to create a fast, skillbased mechanic that would translate well into the realm of Esports.

I don't care what they modelled the skill deck system after, that's has nothing to do with what I was talking about.   A skill deck and the way they allocated skills has nothing to do with how the actual fighting is played out.

I have not once taken any issue with the way that they're doing the combat in TESO, you don't even know were I stand on it because I haven't even expressed any opinion one way or the other over it.

 

As far as skills are concered.  I'm willing to bet  your going find out that they'll have weapon and skill level range caps based on overall character level, similliar to oblivion and skyrim.  If you're level 10 you won't be able to increase a weapon or skill level beyond a specific range.  It'll end up the oposite of the way it's done in the ES games, but similliar enough to be recognizable to both ES players and your "typical" mmo player. 

 

There is no reason to traslate something that pretty much everyone that will play your game already has experienced.  Just because it's an MMO it doesn't need to be changed.  Someone who plays the ES games and doesn't play an MMO doesn't play MMO because there's no ES mmo, they don't play because they don't want to play them.  People that do play MMO's, whether they wanted to play and ES mmo or not, have more then likely already played an ES game.  You don't need to translate something that everyone is already familliar with. 

And I find it hypocritical that anyone would say that they should change the combat system because if they wanted an FPS/ twitch style mechanic they would play an FPS game.  Who are you people kidding, you played an ES game!  No one is on these forums saying they can't wait to play an ES mmo, having never played one fo the single player games.  I find it highly unlikely that anyone who plays MMO's and played an ES game would not play an ES mmo if it played just like morrow-skyrim.   MMO's are still supposed to be RPG's and the only difference between a single player one and an RPG one is the server hosting the persistant world.  There is in specific way that one is supposed to play over the other that requires every game to release and play the same exact way.  It's nothing but an excuse for lazy development, and to appeal to a segment of gamers who weren't already a fan of your game.  And I still haven't given my opinion of the TESO combat system, go figure.

 

PS:  "if I continue to use that weapon over a period of time I will get better with it which will give me a wider variety of things that I can potentially do with my weapon attacks" 

How do you read that and come to the conclusion that there are no skill levels for weapons?  In order to get better you have to have some form of progression, in order to "unlock" new skills you need to reach milestones, the only way to do that is by having levels.  Just like every ES game. 

"If I continue to use that weapon over a period of time, I will get better with it, which will give me a wider variety of things that I can potentially do with my weapon attacks."

That's describing an on use, acttive skill sytem, as used in every ES game.  How else do you think it's going to work.  "If I continue to use that weapon over a period of time, I will get better with it" How do you get no skill levels out of that?

I think I'm starting to understand why they needed to dumb the game down. 

  rguilbert

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 107

5/25/12 9:20:24 PM#37
Odd how trends work. The trend with TOR was rampant fanboyism. It was garbage.

With TES, the trendy thing to do is hate it. I think TESO just might prove the pack wrong again.
  Morcelll

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/09
Posts: 412

5/26/12 2:19:46 PM#38
Originally posted by Uhwop

 You seem confused, maybe it's because you didn't read what I wrote.

Skill deck system is one aspect of a mechanic.

It still use a hotbar, with ability cooldowns, and a movement scheme that is more fluid and faster paced then most MMO's before it. 

GW evolved it by limitting the skills and creating a kind of deck style sytem. But ultimately is was very much a wow modelled combat system becuase it aimed to create a fast, skillbased mechanic that would translate well into the realm of Esports.

I don't care what they modelled the skill deck system after, that's has nothing to do with what I was talking about.   A skill deck and the way they allocated skills has nothing to do with how the actual fighting is played out.

I have not once taken any issue with the way that they're doing the combat in TESO, you don't even know were I stand on it because I haven't even expressed any opinion one way or the other over it.

 

As far as skills are concered.  I'm willing to bet  your going find out that they'll have weapon and skill level range caps based on overall character level, similliar to oblivion and skyrim.  If you're level 10 you won't be able to increase a weapon or skill level beyond a specific range.  It'll end up the oposite of the way it's done in the ES games, but similliar enough to be recognizable to both ES players and your "typical" mmo player. 

 

There is no reason to traslate something that pretty much everyone that will play your game already has experienced.  Just because it's an MMO it doesn't need to be changed.  Someone who plays the ES games and doesn't play an MMO doesn't play MMO because there's no ES mmo, they don't play because they don't want to play them.  People that do play MMO's, whether they wanted to play and ES mmo or not, have more then likely already played an ES game.  You don't need to translate something that everyone is already familliar with. 

And I find it hypocritical that anyone would say that they should change the combat system because if they wanted an FPS/ twitch style mechanic they would play an FPS game.  Who are you people kidding, you played an ES game!  No one is on these forums saying they can't wait to play an ES mmo, having never played one fo the single player games.  I find it highly unlikely that anyone who plays MMO's and played an ES game would not play an ES mmo if it played just like morrow-skyrim.   MMO's are still supposed to be RPG's and the only difference between a single player one and an RPG one is the server hosting the persistant world.  There is in specific way that one is supposed to play over the other that requires every game to release and play the same exact way.  It's nothing but an excuse for lazy development, and to appeal to a segment of gamers who weren't already a fan of your game.  And I still haven't given my opinion of the TESO combat system, go figure.

 

PS:  "if I continue to use that weapon over a period of time I will get better with it which will give me a wider variety of things that I can potentially do with my weapon attacks" 

How do you read that and come to the conclusion that there are no skill levels for weapons?  In order to get better you have to have some form of progression, in order to "unlock" new skills you need to reach milestones, the only way to do that is by having levels.  Just like every ES game. 

"If I continue to use that weapon over a period of time, I will get better with it, which will give me a wider variety of things that I can potentially do with my weapon attacks."

That's describing an on use, acttive skill sytem, as used in every ES game.  How else do you think it's going to work.  "If I continue to use that weapon over a period of time, I will get better with it" How do you get no skill levels out of that?

I think I'm starting to understand why they needed to dumb the game down. 

What MMO isn't going to have a hotbar?  Unless it is pure pure FPS modeled, there will always be skills.  In Elder Scrolls games you have skill slots too, they just aren't always present on your UI.  The model of the deck system is the big differentiator and is what separates it from being "a WoW modelled combat system." 

Also, there might be exact weapon levels, or there might be an unlock rate such as in GW2 and your weapon never actually levels.  However, what I was trying to say is it isn't like WoW's weapon leveling system, to where you just level it and level it but have no skills tied in with it.  By the way you wrote things saying WoW did the exact same things, it warrants a no they didn't.  Their system was just an artificial progession of the weapon, tying its damage/hits and misses to the level of the weapon vs. the level of the monster etc.. etc..  However, there was no skill unlocking. 

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

5/26/12 3:06:18 PM#39
Originally posted by WardTheGreat
Originally posted by Uhwop

 You seem confused, maybe it's because you didn't read what I wrote.

Skill deck system is one aspect of a mechanic.

It still use a hotbar, with ability cooldowns, and a movement scheme that is more fluid and faster paced then most MMO's before it. 

GW evolved it by limitting the skills and creating a kind of deck style sytem. But ultimately is was very much a wow modelled combat system becuase it aimed to create a fast, skillbased mechanic that would translate well into the realm of Esports.

I don't care what they modelled the skill deck system after, that's has nothing to do with what I was talking about.   A skill deck and the way they allocated skills has nothing to do with how the actual fighting is played out.

I have not once taken any issue with the way that they're doing the combat in TESO, you don't even know were I stand on it because I haven't even expressed any opinion one way or the other over it.

 

As far as skills are concered.  I'm willing to bet  your going find out that they'll have weapon and skill level range caps based on overall character level, similliar to oblivion and skyrim.  If you're level 10 you won't be able to increase a weapon or skill level beyond a specific range.  It'll end up the oposite of the way it's done in the ES games, but similliar enough to be recognizable to both ES players and your "typical" mmo player. 

 

There is no reason to traslate something that pretty much everyone that will play your game already has experienced.  Just because it's an MMO it doesn't need to be changed.  Someone who plays the ES games and doesn't play an MMO doesn't play MMO because there's no ES mmo, they don't play because they don't want to play them.  People that do play MMO's, whether they wanted to play and ES mmo or not, have more then likely already played an ES game.  You don't need to translate something that everyone is already familliar with. 

And I find it hypocritical that anyone would say that they should change the combat system because if they wanted an FPS/ twitch style mechanic they would play an FPS game.  Who are you people kidding, you played an ES game!  No one is on these forums saying they can't wait to play an ES mmo, having never played one fo the single player games.  I find it highly unlikely that anyone who plays MMO's and played an ES game would not play an ES mmo if it played just like morrow-skyrim.   MMO's are still supposed to be RPG's and the only difference between a single player one and an RPG one is the server hosting the persistant world.  There is in specific way that one is supposed to play over the other that requires every game to release and play the same exact way.  It's nothing but an excuse for lazy development, and to appeal to a segment of gamers who weren't already a fan of your game.  And I still haven't given my opinion of the TESO combat system, go figure.

 

PS:  "if I continue to use that weapon over a period of time I will get better with it which will give me a wider variety of things that I can potentially do with my weapon attacks" 

How do you read that and come to the conclusion that there are no skill levels for weapons?  In order to get better you have to have some form of progression, in order to "unlock" new skills you need to reach milestones, the only way to do that is by having levels.  Just like every ES game. 

"If I continue to use that weapon over a period of time, I will get better with it, which will give me a wider variety of things that I can potentially do with my weapon attacks."

That's describing an on use, acttive skill sytem, as used in every ES game.  How else do you think it's going to work.  "If I continue to use that weapon over a period of time, I will get better with it" How do you get no skill levels out of that?

I think I'm starting to understand why they needed to dumb the game down. 

What MMO isn't going to have a hotbar?  Unless it is pure pure FPS modeled, there will always be skills.  In Elder Scrolls games you have skill slots too, they just aren't always present on your UI.  The model of the deck system is the big differentiator and is what separates it from being "a WoW modelled combat system." 

Also, there might be exact weapon levels, or there might be an unlock rate such as in GW2 and your weapon never actually levels.  However, what I was trying to say is it isn't like WoW's weapon leveling system, to where you just level it and level it but have no skills tied in with it.  By the way you wrote things saying WoW did the exact same things, it warrants a no they didn't.  Their system was just an artificial progession of the weapon, tying its damage/hits and misses to the level of the weapon vs. the level of the monster etc.. etc..  However, there was no skill unlocking. 

 Do I really have to type this in giant red lettters?

I have never noce made a single coplaint about them using hotbar combat.  I have never once taken issue with the idea of using hotbar combat.  I have never once given my opinion on what I think of the hotbar combat.  I have never once given my opinion on what I think of the combat system described be ZeniOnline.

Was that sufficient?  Do I need to use more giant red letter?\

Nor did I say that it was the same system as WoW's skill leveling.  And your comparison to weapon skills, yet again, showed you didn't actually comprehend what they said.  GW2 uses a SINGLE level mechanic, that is your class level. 

Here, I'll use big red letters again.

The developer at ZeniOnline, in the article, very specifically said that you will have levels for each weapon that you use, and that you will need to increase those levels in order to unlock new weapon skills.  Just like they said each class skill will have levels and require you to increase those levels .

Oblivion and Skyrim both used a skill/ character level system.  You increase skills and they will ultimately increase your character level.

I only SPECULATED that they may end up using the same kind of system, only in reverse.  Instead of skill levels dictating character level, I think we'll see a hybrid system that is character levels dictate skill levels.  That ws the only thing I was attempting to reference to WoW, because that's exactly what Blizzard did.  I never said anything about WoW having weapon skills.  I make this speculation on the fact that they've said there are character levels, and an overall level cap.  It would follow the trend of them "interpretting" ES mechanics into an mmo in such a way that people who play WoW, but may not have played an ES game, would understand, and at the same time retain some familliarity for people who have played the ES games.

You are literally not understand the words that I've written, and I do not know how to write them any clearer.  I would appreciate it if you would STOP putting words into my posts that I did not write myself. 

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

5/28/12 7:23:27 PM#40
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

So I read the entire article twice, and the Idea I got from this system is to dumb down combat even further than what WoW did to the MMO genre's combat system?

 

Six slots? REALLY? Much rather have a twitch based system like TES than TESO. Just saying.....it's not impossible either. Look at Planetside 2, they've got some crazy open-world mechanics going on with twitch based combat with THOUSANDS of players on the field at once shoot/fighting each other.

 

Continueing to be disappointed over here.

Be careful......the number of slots does not determine the overall complexity. It may seem that way, but believe it or not, one of the earliest gripes about WoW making the genre easier, is that they in fact allowed you to use all your abilities at any given time. For EQ fans this eliminate the ability to 'build' your character for the event at hand. To look at a huge range of skills and pick just the few that will help you survive the battle, that actually adds complexity to the game.

Trust me, I've played both unlimited skill access and limited skill access. Limiting skill access creates a more endepth feel to your toon, despite what your instincts may tell you.

I played POTBS.  And in theory, you had 10-12 "abilities."  But in reality, you were limited based on the "morale" you had at the time due to toggles (your best skills tended to cost more morale, and having -50 morale always due to your toggles made you play a lot more careful), combining this with a cooldown system, and some skills being condition/direction based, these limits provided a very challenging experience.

That isn't neccessarily the same as we have here.  But in games like WoW, you basically just click as many buttons as you can, without giving a thought to whether or not you can use other things.  Your mana/stamina bar depletes and then comes back.  Not much thought required.  Moving away from that style is a good thing.

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