Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

The theory is sound, but in practice the combat leaves much to be desired. Spam 1 button to generate combo points. Ugh.

WOW, you actually believe it's like that outside the beginning periods of the game? Come on man, that could be said about any MMO when you've only aquired this or that skill.

You have no idea what content I have or haven't played in TSW, so perhaps you want to reserve your judgment.

Are you saying you only ever have access to one starter ability? I find that weird and almost hard to believe in a skill based character system.

No, I am not saying that. I said spam one button (whatever builder you choose). Try not to jump to conclusions.

"Resources are created through builder abilities and allow players to them consume them by using finisher abilities. Each weapon type has its own resource. A player does not need to use a skill specifically for creating the resource for their weapon, rather using any builder will create a resource for both their weapons regardless of type."

http://crygaia.net/wiki/Ability#Builders

The "builders" abilities change as you level but each section of the wheel you unlock usually gives you access to at least one builder. It is not always advantageous to use that builder in the place of one of the earlier ones. The finishers, aoe, rooting, elite skills etc may change but the essential function does not.

This is incomplete but it gives you an idea on elemental magic (the primary tree into which I put points)

http://crygaia.net/wiki/Elementalism

Basic idea is that you spam builders, expend them on finishers/aoe/roots/elites. This is true regardless if they are tier 1, 2 or 3 items.

Passives are generally more interesting and can include self-heals and buffs to damage abilities and mob debuffs..

As I said, interesting in concept, less interesting in practice. Some people will appreciate this system but for me personally, combat is not where this game shines.

And the basic concept for most of the classes and class combinations in Rift 

err no, for instance when you log into rift for the first time you pick warrior, rogue, cleric or mage.  If you pick warrior you can never heal unless you reroll.

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Ambros123

And what fundamentals of RPG are these?  TSW provides nothing all that new that others haven't delivered countless of times.  New atmosphere and a breath of fresh air but nothing innovate or really different than any other themepark MMO thats been released.

Customization. No two characters should be a like.

Actually I think a lot of characters will be alike. You see, its not full on skill picking. You select a focus and there are way less than 500 focuses in the game. With that said, there is still going to be a lot of options. Just not as many as I thought there could be when they say 500 skills.

7 active 7 passive. 

Unlock then pick and choose as you please.

Thats the problem,  you wont unlock all of them until the very end. Even then people will be using the outer rings mostly.

Originally posted by DannyGlover

I guess I'm in the minority here but I love pvp systems designed with hard counters. This game is full of them. The nice part is that you can have any and all skills unlocked to mix and match as you please. So instead of having to balance a bunch of classes, they just made counters to everything and its up to the players to decide how they want to outfit their characters.

Flavor of the Month builds will be more like flavor of the day because once a build gets popular, someone will make a hard counter build that owns it. Then someone makes a counter to that and so on. Pretty soon, you have groups of players running specific builds and there will be counter builds to that group etc.

I think it will end up being a very diverse and deep pvp system.

Unfortunately that's the opposite of a diverse and deep pvp system. Its more like a frustrating one. Having so many skills, even if only around 30% of them are the ones that end up beign used, will cause utter imbalance.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by DannyGlover

I guess I'm in the minority here but I love pvp systems designed with hard counters. This game is full of them. The nice part is that you can have any and all skills unlocked to mix and match as you please. So instead of having to balance a bunch of classes, they just made counters to everything and its up to the players to decide how they want to outfit their characters.

Flavor of the Month builds will be more like flavor of the day because once a build gets popular, someone will make a hard counter build that owns it. Then someone makes a counter to that and so on. Pretty soon, you have groups of players running specific builds and there will be counter builds to that group etc.

I think it will end up being a very diverse and deep pvp system.

Unfortunately that's the opposite of a diverse and deep pvp system. Its more like a frustrating one. Having so many skills, even if only around 30% of them are the ones that end up beign used, will cause utter imbalance.

Imbalance because every set of 7 active and 7 passive skills won't do the exact same thing?

Difference != imbalance

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Originally posted by Kuppa

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Originally posted by DannyGlover I guess I'm in the minority here but I love pvp systems designed with hard counters. This game is full of them. The nice part is that you can have any and all skills unlocked to mix and match as you please. So instead of having to balance a bunch of classes, they just made counters to everything and its up to the players to decide how they want to outfit their characters. Flavor of the Month builds will be more like flavor of the day because once a build gets popular, someone will make a hard counter build that owns it. Then someone makes a counter to that and so on. Pretty soon, you have groups of players running specific builds and there will be counter builds to that group etc. I think it will end up being a very diverse and deep pvp system.

---

Unfortunately that's the opposite of a diverse and deep pvp system. Its more like a frustrating one. Having so many skills, even if only around 30% of them are the ones that end up beign used, will cause utter imbalance.

---

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Ambros123

And what fundamentals of RPG are these?  TSW provides nothing all that new that others haven't delivered countless of times.  New atmosphere and a breath of fresh air but nothing innovate or really different than any other themepark MMO thats been released.

Customization. No two characters should be a like.

Sure, wait a week or two, and watch all the cookie cutter builds running round.

Things might be different cosmetically, but that depends on the price of clothing, and the willingness for people to spend cash in the shop on top of the subscription fee.

Originally posted by WellzyC

"Deep Combat"  says the guy with 1 post

 

=P

 

[edit] Link is broken

 I don't understand how post count applies?

I keep seeing posts about how the combat is deep, or complex, or innovative.

From what I've seen the character development is deep, complex, and somewhat innovative, but that's not combat.  Combat consists of selecting a target and activating skills on a hotbar.  Nothing wrong with that, but it has nothing to do with character development outside of what skills go into the hotbar and what weapon you'll have in your hands.  I am aware that depending on the skills you choose you'll have diffirent passive effects that will play out during combat, but that's still not the combat mechanics used in the game; which, from what I've seen isn't deep, complex, and deffienetly not innovative.

Shouldn't the post title be, deepest character development I've seen in a long time? 

When did character development become the combat mechanics in an MMO?

Yeah after looking at it, it's ability sets.

You pick the weapons and passives and you get abilities tethered to them you can use.

It's being overhyped in the regard that, while the 'classless' nature of players lets you pick anything, all abilities are derivative of a single pool of functions.

Which that in and of itself isn't bad, nor does it actually describe how complex they system is because complexity is derived from the size of that pool.

But it's not a large pool.

There's a reason I mentioned Saga of Ryzom before. You don't just have classless progression or the option to pick whatever ability you want, and they aren't defined by any set groupings. You can go all the way to making the abilities. Taking the different core aspects, damage types, and functions each thing can do and grouping them together into powers to very highly tailor your character's design, and it shows in the combat.

It could be that my point of view is biased, having played games with that kind of complexity for a good few years now. When I compare a game like this to a game like Ryzom, I very much fail to see it as 'deep'.

---

Originally posted by Gwahlur  You can make a build without a single builder or finisher if you want

---

Very good post.  The concept of me bringing a deck made out of 500+ cards to the battle and using that deck against yours is as deep as the two minds that made the decks.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Ambros123

And what fundamentals of RPG are these?  TSW provides nothing all that new that others haven't delivered countless of times.  New atmosphere and a breath of fresh air but nothing innovate or really different than any other themepark MMO thats been released.

Customization. No two characters should be a like.

Actually I think a lot of characters will be alike. You see, its not full on skill picking. You select a focus and there are way less than 500 focuses in the game. With that said, there is still going to be a lot of options. Just not as many as I thought there could be when they say 500 skills.

7 active 7 passive. 

Unlock then pick and choose as you please.

Thats the problem,  you wont unlock all of them until the very end. Even then people will be using the outer rings mostly.

Outer ring abilities are not upgrades. For example a inner ring ability may do 110 dmg while an out rinf ability does 105 dmg but if the target is impaired it does 115. 

So If you have a impair in your build then it would be wise to use the outer ring if not you would use the inner ring or find an ability that leaves the target impaired.

Great if we're talking about actual 500 different abilities, but many are just copies of others with animation and name changes. The combat system lacks a lot of variety, thus damage is the name of the game so you're settled between direct, aoe and stunning.  And the abilities just give u more or less.  

lol TSW combat is NOT deep in any way. its really the most shallow Ive seen in a MMO the only thing complicated about it is actually understanding the ability discriptions as they are some of the most FUBARed Ive seen.. i dont even think the person who wrote them understood english.. is more like google translate

Originally posted by dontadow

Great if we're talking about actual 500 different abilities, but many are just copies of others with animation and name changes. The combat system lacks a lot of variety, thus damage is the name of the game so you're settled between direct, aoe and stunning.  And the abilities just give u more or less.  

What you are saying is wrong. No two ways about it. These are SOME of the attack types. Some. 

Melee (magic & physical) - single target builders & consumers
Mid range - single target builders & consumers
Range - (magic & physical) single target builders & consumers
 

PBAoE - AoE's centered around you body
GTAoE - Standard ground targeted AoE 
Chains - Attacks that jump from one target to another
Pet Summons - Orbs and turrets and stuff
CC - snares, stuns, silences, knock backs, knock downs
Heals - HoT's & direct single target group and AoE heals 
Shields - group, single & PBAoE
Cleanses - single & multiple buff and debuff
Cool downs - offensive & defensive single and group
Elites - Seem to blend catagories

Each of the 500+ fall into one of these catagories. Remember this is not a complete list.

Today I make a build that focuses on Cleanses and CC. I will make a melee cleanse/cc build.

The next day I might make a melee deck that focuses on shields and chain attacks.

Next week I make a build focused on GTAoE and defensice cool downs.

on and on and on.

Now that I like a build I'm going to refine it even more. My melee shield/chain attck build will use hinders and weakens, or maybe penatration and stuns., or maybe....

Is there another game that I can do this in? Am I missing something? Maybe you are missing a little something ;)

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by dontadow

Great if we're talking about actual 500 different abilities, but many are just copies of others with animation and name changes. The combat system lacks a lot of variety, thus damage is the name of the game so you're settled between direct, aoe and stunning.  And the abilities just give u more or less.  

What you are saying is wrong. No two ways about it. These are SOME of the attack types. Some. 

 

Melee (magic & physical) - single target builders & consumers
Mid range - single target builders & consumers
Range - (magic & physical) single target builders & consumers
 

PBAoE - AoE's centered around you body
GTAoE - Standard ground targeted AoE 
Chains - Attacks that jump from one target to another
Pet Summons - Orbs and turrets and stuff
CC - snares, stuns, silences, knock backs, knock downs
Heals - HoT's & direct single target group and AoE heals 
Shields - group, single & PBAoE
Cleanses - single & multiple buff and debuff
Cool downs - offensive & defensive single and group
Elites - Seem to blend catagories

 

Each of the 500+ fall into one of these catagories. Remember this is not a complete list.

 

Today I make a build that focuses on Cleanses and CC. I will make a melee cleanse/cc build.

 

The next day I might make a melee deck that focuses on shields and chain attacks.

 

Next week I make a build focused on GTAoE and defensice cool downs.

on and on and on.

 

Now that I like a build I'm going to refine it even more. My melee shield/chain attck build will use hinders and weakens, or maybe penatration and stuns., or maybe....

 

Is there another game that I can do this in? Am I missing something? Maybe you are missing a little something ;)

they have glance, block, evade, critical hit, hit, penetrating hit, impaired, weakened, hindered, afflicted, strike, focus, blast, frenzy, burst, chain, leech, absorb, HoT.

any one of those can trigger or be triggered by each other.

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by dontadow

Great if we're talking about actual 500 different abilities, but many are just copies of others with animation and name changes. The combat system lacks a lot of variety, thus damage is the name of the game so you're settled between direct, aoe and stunning.  And the abilities just give u more or less.  

What you are saying is wrong. No two ways about it. These are SOME of the attack types. Some. 

 

Melee (magic & physical) - single target builders & consumers
Mid range - single target builders & consumers
Range - (magic & physical) single target builders & consumers
 

PBAoE - AoE's centered around you body
GTAoE - Standard ground targeted AoE 
Chains - Attacks that jump from one target to another
Pet Summons - Orbs and turrets and stuff
CC - snares, stuns, silences, knock backs, knock downs
Heals - HoT's & direct single target group and AoE heals 
Shields - group, single & PBAoE
Cleanses - single & multiple buff and debuff
Cool downs - offensive & defensive single and group
Elites - Seem to blend catagories

 

Each of the 500+ fall into one of these catagories. Remember this is not a complete list.

 

Today I make a build that focuses on Cleanses and CC. I will make a melee cleanse/cc build.

 

The next day I might make a melee deck that focuses on shields and chain attacks.

 

Next week I make a build focused on GTAoE and defensice cool downs.

on and on and on.

 

Now that I like a build I'm going to refine it even more. My melee shield/chain attck build will use hinders and weakens, or maybe penatration and stuns., or maybe....

 

Is there another game that I can do this in? Am I missing something? Maybe you are missing a little something ;)

Sure there might be 1000s of possibilities but the question is will it have synergy?  Form day 1 every since their early vid about TSW saying that there are 1000s of possibilities of builds I called BS on.  Many will simpely not mix well plain and simple.  It will come down to a handful of cookie-cutter builds as some simplely do not want to waste hours upon hours trying to figure out what will work well and people will want the most effective build for their role which will eliminate many builds.

Very dissapointed that CC's are going to extremely short in duration.  Likely due to the fact that they decided to not separate PvE and PvP.  You would think these companies would learn over time not to try to balance the two.  So now in PvE we are left with a bunch semi useless 4 second CC's.  What fantastic help in PvE....considering they decided to go the hit the mob 40 times to kill it route, ugh.

I'm a fan of the game but talking about it's combat like it's anything other than weak would be streching it.  This is a very basic MMO with an awesome setting (the reason I'm playing) with little longetivity, let's not make this out to be something more than it is.  This is one of those games if I wrote down everything great about it and everything very basic and simple, I would probably be shocked that I plan on purchasing and playing the first day of release.  The setting and immersion are just that good though.

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by dontadow

Great if we're talking about actual 500 different abilities, but many are just copies of others with animation and name changes. The combat system lacks a lot of variety, thus damage is the name of the game so you're settled between direct, aoe and stunning.  And the abilities just give u more or less.  

What you are saying is wrong. No two ways about it. These are SOME of the attack types. Some. 

 

Melee (magic & physical) - single target builders & consumers
Mid range - single target builders & consumers
Range - (magic & physical) single target builders & consumers
 

PBAoE - AoE's centered around you body
GTAoE - Standard ground targeted AoE 
Chains - Attacks that jump from one target to another
Pet Summons - Orbs and turrets and stuff
CC - snares, stuns, silences, knock backs, knock downs
Heals - HoT's & direct single target group and AoE heals 
Shields - group, single & PBAoE
Cleanses - single & multiple buff and debuff
Cool downs - offensive & defensive single and group
Elites - Seem to blend catagories

 

Each of the 500+ fall into one of these catagories. Remember this is not a complete list.

 

Today I make a build that focuses on Cleanses and CC. I will make a melee cleanse/cc build.

 

The next day I might make a melee deck that focuses on shields and chain attacks.

 

Next week I make a build focused on GTAoE and defensice cool downs.

on and on and on.

 

Now that I like a build I'm going to refine it even more. My melee shield/chain attck build will use hinders and weakens, or maybe penatration and stuns., or maybe....

 

Is there another game that I can do this in? Am I missing something? Maybe you are missing a little something ;)

Sure there might be 1000s of possibilities but the question is will it have synergy?  Form day 1 every since their early vid about TSW saying that there are 1000s of possibilities of builds I called BS on.  Many will simpely not mix well plain and simple.  It will come down to a handful of cookie-cutter builds as some simplely do not want to waste hours upon hours trying to figure out what will work well and people will want the most effective build for their role which will eliminate many builds.

And still I say, these are the same option sand choices I have in RIft, in a polished format with better combat animations.  

Listen to what you listed, 10 maybe 15 things.  More than 500 abilities, that's 10 to 20 abilities per one of the options you listed, which means you're going to have a lot of repeating. It's bloating for the sake of saying (we got 500 things you can choose from). IN reality its the same options as other games.  

Originally posted by Mardukk

Very dissapointed that CC's are going to extremely short in duration.  Likely due to the fact that they decided to not separate PvE and PvP.  You would think these companies would learn over time not to try to balance the two.  So now in PvE we are left with a bunch semi useless 4 second CC's.  What fantastic help in PvE....considering they decided to go the hit the mob 40 times to kill it route, ugh.

 

I'm a fan of the game but talking about it's combat like it's anything other than weak would be streching it.  This is a very basic MMO with an awesome setting (the reason I'm playing) with little longetivity, let's not make this out to be something more than it is.  This is one of those games if I wrote down everything great about it and everything very basic and simple, I would probably be shocked that I plan on purchasing and playing the first day of release.  The setting and immersion are just that good though.

It is what it is and that can't be denied. You can choose to say it isn't despite whats in front of you and spam one button. It's your choice. It doesn't make it right. 

There is a lot more evidence from cold hard facts in this threads that the TSW combat system is strong, very strong, as opposed to being weak.  Again you can say that but what's in front of you says different.

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by dontadow

Great if we're talking about actual 500 different abilities, but many are just copies of others with animation and name changes. The combat system lacks a lot of variety, thus damage is the name of the game so you're settled between direct, aoe and stunning.  And the abilities just give u more or less.  

What you are saying is wrong. No two ways about it. These are SOME of the attack types. Some. 

 

Melee (magic & physical) - single target builders & consumers
Mid range - single target builders & consumers
Range - (magic & physical) single target builders & consumers
 

PBAoE - AoE's centered around you body
GTAoE - Standard ground targeted AoE 
Chains - Attacks that jump from one target to another
Pet Summons - Orbs and turrets and stuff
CC - snares, stuns, silences, knock backs, knock downs
Heals - HoT's & direct single target group and AoE heals 
Shields - group, single & PBAoE
Cleanses - single & multiple buff and debuff
Cool downs - offensive & defensive single and group
Elites - Seem to blend catagories

 

Each of the 500+ fall into one of these catagories. Remember this is not a complete list.

 

Today I make a build that focuses on Cleanses and CC. I will make a melee cleanse/cc build.

 

The next day I might make a melee deck that focuses on shields and chain attacks.

 

Next week I make a build focused on GTAoE and defensice cool downs.

on and on and on.

 

Now that I like a build I'm going to refine it even more. My melee shield/chain attck build will use hinders and weakens, or maybe penatration and stuns., or maybe....

 

Is there another game that I can do this in? Am I missing something? Maybe you are missing a little something ;)

Sure there might be 1000s of possibilities but the question is will it have synergy?  Form day 1 every since their early vid about TSW saying that there are 1000s of possibilities of builds I called BS on.  Many will simpely not mix well plain and simple.  It will come down to a handful of cookie-cutter builds as some simplely do not want to waste hours upon hours trying to figure out what will work well and people will want the most effective build for their role which will eliminate many builds.

And still I say, these are the same option sand choices I have in RIft, in a polished format with better combat animations.  

Listen to what you listed, 10 maybe 15 things.  More than 500 abilities, that's 10 to 20 abilities per one of the options you listed, which means you're going to have a lot of repeating. It's bloating for the sake of saying (we got 500 things you can choose from). IN reality its the same options as other games.  

Factor in range, type, trigger, and states. These things can not be separated. The 500 abilities, the types, the sub types, the states. 5 under a catagory can be wildy different in effect. This is the depth. Look closer. I'm not trying to rag on you, but look closer. 

I love RIFT, but RIFT has classes 100 times better than other big mmos, but there are classes. Your warrior will not be healing.

Originally posted by Charlizzard

The theory is sound, but in practice the combat leaves much to be desired. Spam 1 button to generate combo points. Ugh.

Look, TSW has a lot of strengths, combat is not one of them.

The lore, the environment, some of the puzzle quests, the main storyline, all terrific. The constant annoying clumps of mobs detract rather than add to the experience.

Completely agree,

I am going to buy TSW, and play it (atleast for the included month) But I must admit, when I got in the weekend beta (And I will be rolling Temps when it's live) the only combat that was any fun for me was shotguns. And thats pretty limited.

TSW was fun for me, but more inspite of the combat not because of it. Fortunately, the other parts of the game were fun enough to overcome the average experience I had with the combat.

I do think TSW has alot of features and aspects that set it above other games, but combat is probably not the feature anyone needs to be pointing attention to. 

Just my opinion.