Originally posted by Amaranthar

If you want a great steak, you don't just throw it on a fire. People don't say, "I don't care about the stupid semantics", they say "medium rare".

Sometimes I just want a goddamn steak.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Amaranthar

If you want a great steak, you don't just throw it on a fire. People don't say, "I don't care about the stupid semantics", they say "medium rare".

Sometimes I just want a goddamn steak.

You're in luck.  There is plenty of over-cooked steak (games) out there for you now.  You should be in heaven.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

According to your comments, you are perfectly happy with the status quo.  Have at it.  Many of us are ready to move on.  Good luck to you, and we'll see you when you get bored like we have.

I do understand not everyone plays like I want to.  There will always be a market for mouth-breather simple hand holding MMO games.  The things is though, is that there is a growing segment of players who want more now.  7+ years of the same rehashed design is not just getting old, it's dead.  Guild Wars 2 is proving that.

This is not correct. You are just trying to polarize the playerbase, devide it into apparently dumb "mouth breather" people like myself who want everything "spoon fed", and awesome smart people like you who love sadnboxes. Listen to yourself. You're not interested in a discussion.

GW2 was designed for me. The dumb mouth breather who wants everything spoon fed you just mentioned. You just don't realize that. You don't see what's going on at all, do you? You're too centered on yourself.

You should figure out wtf is that you're trying to say already.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

You're in luck.  There is plenty of over-cooked steak (games) out there for you now.  You should be in heaven.

You would do much better without your patronizing attitude.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Amaranthar

On your second point, I don't think it's either Sandbox or Themepark. I think the terms "worldly" and "more realistic" comes to mind more than either of the others. And this idea could be placed in either a Sandbox or a Themepark based game. I do think it makes a world come alive, changes and surprise in a way that fits halp with that. But also, it's in "story" that's ever changing and not scripted, at least in a hard way or obvious way. Never played Diablo, so....

Thirdly, by "intelligent AI", I meant AI designed for intelligent critters, which should be different than for instict driven animals/monsters. But since you brought it up, yeah, AI that's actually a puzzle sounds good. I never thought of it in those terms, but the general idea applies. So in a system like this, there are options 'A', 'B', etc., that's sort of a puzzle to work out ahead of time for players who have knowledge of a particular dungeon. They get to help devise strategy. Think of the Leroy Jenkin's scene where the raid leader is giving instructions. Now he's asking, "ok, what do we have?" And players who know get to say "this, that, and don't forget the other thing". Yet, with a little randomness, it's not set in stone and can visit the player raiders with a few surprises to overcome on the spot.

Edit to add: That last part you said, it's all enhanced by the little tricks of the mind, isn't it? If players don't notice, or can't see, the slight of hand... it's like magic.

A feature is either sandbox or themepark.  Sand (player-driven; player-authored) or a Ride (dev-driven; dev-authored.)

You've described a fun ride with no significant player inputs, so the feature you're talking about is undeniably a themepark one.

Sandboxes can contain themepark features.   It doesn't make the themepark feature a sandbox one (or a neutral one.) It doesn't make the sandbox a themepark (unless the majority of features are themepark features.)

Good AI has always been a puzzle.  That's what threat-based AI is: a puzzle. One of many minigames working in conjunction with all the other minigames (you have your rotation puzzle, the mob's abilities puzzle, and perhaps an environment puzzle as well.)

Players certainly want a different puzzle with any new game, and changing the AI puzzle is one way to achieve that (although threat-based AI is still going to work perfectly fine if all the other puzzles are sufficiently different.)

Sure tricks of the mind are part of it.  The player's perception of the game is the game.  So if the player perceives something as smart, it is smart (even if it's not really smart.)

I don't agree. Is bashing a MOB Sandbox or Themepark?

But really, I don't want to devolve an otherwise fine conversation into this argument.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

But really, I don't want to devolve an otherwise fine conversation into this argument.

The OP seems to be mostly concerned with calling anyone who likes themepark features an idiot, so I'm not sure if there's any hope for this thread...

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Amaranthar

If you want a great steak, you don't just throw it on a fire. People don't say, "I don't care about the stupid semantics", they say "medium rare".

Sometimes I just want a goddamn steak.

Here ya go. You didn't specify, so I didn't bother cooking it.

And in case you don't know, that's chunks of lab grown meat for the less discerning customer like yourself.

(I just couldn't resist, heh)

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Let me start by the end.

Hmm, i wanted to reply to your points specifically, but then i realized, that you are not really arguing against mmos with sandbox elements, but eve (or a game similar to it), you even seem to agree with my point C (and are completely missing point B), in a way  :)

And i think those games have enough players to defend them.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

According to your comments, you are perfectly happy with the status quo.  Have at it.  Many of us are ready to move on.  Good luck to you, and we'll see you when you get bored like we have.

I do understand not everyone plays like I want to.  There will always be a market for mouth-breather simple hand holding MMO games.  The things is though, is that there is a growing segment of players who want more now.  7+ years of the same rehashed design is not just getting old, it's dead.  Guild Wars 2 is proving that, and it's not even that big of a departure.

 

Nothing wrong with liking what we have right now. You can "move on". I will be having fun with Diablo 3.

And nothing last forever. If this bores me, i will do something else. There is no shortage of entertainment options. MMOs, like other genre, wane & wax. So what if it dies. So what if it changes to something very different.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Here ya go. You didn't specify, so I didn't bother cooking it.

And in case you don't know, that's chunks of lab grown meat for the less discerning customer like yourself.

(I just couldn't resist, heh)

I'm not sure if you're joking or what, but I'll write it out in case some here are not joking and really do not understand what the phrase "just give me a steak" actually means.

There's creation, and there's consumption. About 10 years ago, never as a gamer would I got to a company and say "I want a game that does x, y, and z". I really do not imagine that situation. I'm not a requester. I don't make demands.

What we would do is we would go out to a gaming store and then we'd get a game.

But games were made by people who wanted to make them. These people have an idea of what they want to do. One developer wanted to make an FPS game. Another made an RTS game. Another an RPG game. And at that time we played everything, and what we played were the creative vision offered by the developers.

Offered by the developers. And if a developer offered a bad game, nobody played it. Nobody cared for it.

That's your uncooked steak. A developer knows what an uncooked (undercooked, badly cooked, w/e) steak is. It's a bad steak. Nobody wants that. Devs are aware of that. It's not a mystery.

Same here. I am not requesting a special game full of special features designed just privately for me (wtf? Lol). All I want. All I really want. Is a good game. A good steak. A solid steak. You're the developers, you know how to make a good steak. So make one.

That is what is missing right now. A lot of undercooked steak (bad games, bad design, bad visuals, bad ideas, bad gameplay) on the market. It's not an acceptable steak, it's not looked at. So you can't offer me an uncooked steak and say that since I didn't specify what I want, I should get an uncooked steak. That's ludicrous. I'm never going to that restaurant again, that's what's gonna happen.

I like whatever variation of steak you throw at me. Sandbox, themepark, FPS, RTS, I don't care. But it needs to be done.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Amaranthar

But really, I don't want to devolve an otherwise fine conversation into this argument.

The OP seems to be mostly concerned with calling anyone who likes themepark features an idiot, so I'm not sure if there's any hope for this thread...

Not idiots, just 'casual' to the point where brain mass is doing little work.  To me, WoW-type themeparks are only one step away from Farmville in complexity and depth.  It's a lot like watching TV, really.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Not idiots, just 'casual' to the point where brain mass is doing little work.  To me, WoW-type themeparks are only one step away from Farmville in complexity and depth.  It's a lot like watching TV, really.

Then perhaps you should take a step back reevaluate your perception of people.

By the way, Diablo I, DooM, etc., are some of the most mindless games out there. Some very intelligent people have played them for fun because they SPECIFICALLY wanted to get away from the grill of real life. Like some posters said here: you want your games to turn into real life or something. A lot of us here specifically do not want that, we want games to relax. That doesn't mean we're dumb, nor doesn't equate a video game to TV or mean that we necessarily wnat brain dead games.

A lot of themeparks have plenty of complex systems that would tire my father very, very quickly. He's a senior programmer. I don't understand you, I really don't.

You are not listening, just generalizing. Why?

It's not like good sandboxes do not exist. EVE Online. Great, AAA level game. What's not to like?

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Amaranthar

But really, I don't want to devolve an otherwise fine conversation into this argument.

The OP seems to be mostly concerned with calling anyone who likes themepark features an idiot, so I'm not sure if there's any hope for this thread...

Not idiots, just 'casual' to the point where brain mass is doing little work.  To me, WoW-type themeparks are only one step away from Farmville in complexity and depth.  It's a lot like watching TV, really.

Such elitism. So what it is like watching TV. I enjoy Big Bang Theory, 24, Lost and a number of TV shows too. There is nothing wrong. When i want more intellectual entertainment i read lock-room mysteries, or better yet, work.

We are talking about games here. More complex games are not superior.

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by lizardbones If you're going to add one thing, add something that gives people a feeling of personal ownership. Let players manage a small section of the landscape to do with as they will, farming necessary things or building ridiculous houses. Allow players to have a hand in managing NPC villages...making them successful and prolific, or miserable and rebellious. Let players start farms to breed animals that give you something relevant when you milk them or kill them. Do all of this without losing the general progression model and quest based stories.  

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WOW is doing it. You will get your farmville mini-game in MOP.

Personally i don't care. I don't play MMORPGs to farm but more power to those who want the feature.

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

Such elitism. So what it is like watching TV. I enjoy Big Bang Theory, 24, Lost and a number of TV shows too. There is nothing wrong. When i want more intellectual entertainment i read lock-room mysteries, or better yet, work.

This, too. I can say a lot of negative things about commercials but there are plenty of good TV shows out there.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Amaranthar

But really, I don't want to devolve an otherwise fine conversation into this argument.

The OP seems to be mostly concerned with calling anyone who likes themepark features an idiot, so I'm not sure if there's any hope for this thread...

Not idiots, just 'casual' to the point where brain mass is doing little work.  To me, WoW-type themeparks are only one step away from Farmville in complexity and depth.  It's a lot like watching TV, really.

Why does people liking something different than you need to be associated with a negative conotation?

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by lizardbones If you're going to add one thing, add something that gives people a feeling of personal ownership. Let players manage a small section of the landscape to do with as they will, farming necessary things or building ridiculous houses. Allow players to have a hand in managing NPC villages...making them successful and prolific, or miserable and rebellious. Let players start farms to breed animals that give you something relevant when you milk them or kill them. Do all of this without losing the general progression model and quest based stories.  

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WOW is doing it. You will get your farmville mini-game in MOP.

 

Personally i don't care. I don't play MMORPGs to farm but more power to those who want the feature.

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That's more Pokemon than Farmville or Minecraft. Not exactly the same thing. I don't think that the types of things I'm talking about would even be possible with WoW's engine.

 

Both. You haven't read the new "farming" feature in MOP?

http://www.simplywarcraft.com/2012/03/mists-of-pandaria-farms-in-warcraft.html

And i quote "A new faction lets player have their own farms in-game. They will be able to manage livestock and more all the while gaining reputation. Other factions will offer other activities, from raising a serpent to become your mount to defending outposts for dailies."

How is this not farmville? Note that this is seperate from the pokemon system in MOP.

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Originally posted by Unlight When sandboxes stop trying pawn off players griefing players, no matter how creatively, as content, I'll start taking them seriously.  Players don't generate content, we consume it.

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I never understood the constant complaints about PKs or griefers, they don't affect my game play much. Sure, they can temporarily lock me out from a small area or similar, but what keeps you from doing something else or (what I usually do) finding help to take sweet revenge?

If you prefer it all fluffy and friendly, PVP games aren't your thing but hey, there are tons of PVE games for you if you can't or don't want to handle PVP, nobody forces you to play a PVP game.

As for players not creating content, I don't agree. If the developers give the players the right tools, the players can create it with ease. And there are plenty of players that prefer creating content over just consuming it, just look at Minecraft or Lego if you want non examples that everybody knows about.

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Originally posted by UnlightGive me an open world that can live and evolve without players in it, and I'll be among the first to take up residence.

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Why don't you play single player games then? They seem to be exactly what you look for. No other players annoying your gaming fun, no monthly fees either.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Here ya go. You didn't specify, so I didn't bother cooking it.

And in case you don't know, that's chunks of lab grown meat for the less discerning customer like yourself.

(I just couldn't resist, heh)

I'm not sure if you're joking or what, but I'll write it out in case some here are not joking and really do not understand what the phrase "just give me a steak" actually means.

There's creation, and there's consumption. About 10 years ago, never as a gamer would I got to a company and say "I want a game that does x, y, and z". I really do not imagine that situation. I'm not a requester. I don't make demands.

What we would do is we would go out to a gaming store and then we'd get a game.

But games were made by people who wanted to make them. These people have an idea of what they want to do. One developer wanted to make an FPS game. Another made an RTS game. Another an RPG game. And at that time we played everything, and what we played were the creative vision offered by the developers.

Offered by the developers. And if a developer offered a bad game, nobody played it. Nobody cared for it.

That's your uncooked steak. A developer knows what an uncooked (undercooked, badly cooked, w/e) steak is. It's a bad steak. Nobody wants that. Devs are aware of that. It's not a mystery.

Same here. I am not requesting a special game full of special features designed just privately for me (wtf? Lol). All I want. All I really want. Is a good game. A good steak. A solid steak. You're the developers, you know how to make a good steak. So make one.

That is what is missing right now. A lot of undercooked steak (bad games, bad design, bad visuals, bad ideas, bad gameplay) on the market. It's not an acceptable steak, it's not looked at. So you can't offer me an uncooked steak and say that since I didn't specify what I want, I should get an uncooked steak. That's ludicrous. I'm never going to that restaurant again, that's what's gonna happen.

I like whatever variation of steak you throw at me. Sandbox, themepark, FPS, RTS, I don't care. But it needs to be done.

Ok, understood. But I'm not you. I have particular tastes. And I'm going to say what those are. I'm not just going to go away and stop buying, I'm going to ask for what I want before I give up and go away.

And it seems to me that I'm not all that different than many others. I don't think it's just me.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Here ya go. You didn't specify, so I didn't bother cooking it.

And in case you don't know, that's chunks of lab grown meat for the less discerning customer like yourself.

(I just couldn't resist, heh)

I'm not sure if you're joking or what, but I'll write it out in case some here are not joking and really do not understand what the phrase "just give me a steak" actually means.

There's creation, and there's consumption. About 10 years ago, never as a gamer would I got to a company and say "I want a game that does x, y, and z". I really do not imagine that situation. I'm not a requester. I don't make demands.

What we would do is we would go out to a gaming store and then we'd get a game.

But games were made by people who wanted to make them. These people have an idea of what they want to do. One developer wanted to make an FPS game. Another made an RTS game. Another an RPG game. And at that time we played everything, and what we played were the creative vision offered by the developers.

Offered by the developers. And if a developer offered a bad game, nobody played it. Nobody cared for it.

That's your uncooked steak. A developer knows what an uncooked (undercooked, badly cooked, w/e) steak is. It's a bad steak. Nobody wants that. Devs are aware of that. It's not a mystery.

Same here. I am not requesting a special game full of special features designed just privately for me (wtf? Lol). All I want. All I really want. Is a good game. A good steak. A solid steak. You're the developers, you know how to make a good steak. So make one.

That is what is missing right now. A lot of undercooked steak (bad games, bad design, bad visuals, bad ideas, bad gameplay) on the market. It's not an acceptable steak, it's not looked at. So you can't offer me an uncooked steak and say that since I didn't specify what I want, I should get an uncooked steak. That's ludicrous. I'm never going to that restaurant again, that's what's gonna happen.

I like whatever variation of steak you throw at me. Sandbox, themepark, FPS, RTS, I don't care. But it needs to be done.

I disagree that developers automatically know how to make a good game.  I think they are as guilty as being stuck in a rut as anyone, and they have the added pressure of being guided by suits and bean counters who just want to turn a profit, not deliver a fun long-term gaming experience.

Look at TOR.  EA doesn't want to put any money into it.  The game still has players, and turned a tidy profit, and they don't care if it just dwindles and dies.  They may put out an expansion to make more money, but they aren't going to go through and fix the flaws that are keeping large crowds of people from making it their home game.

The thing about Day Z, whether you like the game or not, is that one guy made this mod and shook up the industry some by providing an emergent gameplay experience through a relatively simple game-mod.  Now the makers of ArmA are selling more boxes on a two year old game, and the guy is being interviewed all over the internet for doing something innovative.

There are several compelling aspects of Day Z that attract a lot of people, and will probably enhance gaming as a whole.  For one thing, it's more or less a 'sandbox' game, and people are loving the open-ended survival aspect of it.  I find that interesting, since so many people on this website claim that no one wants open-ended sandbox gameplay.  In Day Z, like other past sandboxes, the players themselves make up most of the content, and there is something very, very immersive about this.  Already people are asking for more persistant MMO features.  

As I have read stories about people's experiences, or seen videos on YouTube, I couldn't help but think of Star Wars Galaxies back in Pre-CU when we used to run around Dathomir in groups and just try to survive the killer mobs and get some decent crafting materials.  We had a blast, and no quests were required.  In Day Z you walk this countryside and just try to stay alive.  There are no quests, but listen to how much fun people are having.  You just don't get that type of immerision from predictable themepark games.

I'll say this too.  The developers Xsyon need to go and read up about Day Z, because THAT is exactly what is missing from Xsyon.  They have the sandbox world, the crafting and all that stuff, but they have no *game*.  Take a game like Xyson and add the adventure, pvp, and danger factor of Day Z, and you may have something. 

Originally posted by Amaranthar

 

Ok, understood. But I'm not you. I have particular tastes. And I'm going to say what those are. I'm not just going to go away and stop buying, I'm going to ask for what I want before I give up and go away.

And it seems to me that I'm not all that different than many others. I don't think it's just me.

It is a free world. We all vote with our wallet on the entertainment we like, and express what we like on the internet. You are not alone.