Originally posted by Valentina

 

I think part of what's happening here is a combination of luck, bad press, and the general mmo community.

 

 1. Luck has nothing to do with it. It is their design and management decisions that have led them to where they are now.

2. Bad press? Are you kidding? This game was getting so much hype before and shortly after launch it was ridiculous.

3. This old cliche again. Some of you seriously need to put the "blame the community" shtick to rest. This game will fail or succeed on its own merits not because of the community. This is such a cop out. Didn't fly for AoC, Warhammer, etc. and it doesn't fly here either

Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.

In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.

Originally posted by Valentina

Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.

In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.

I really have no clue how you came ot that conclusion.. aside from the dialogue segments the design of SWTOR almost went out of its way ot make the actual planets and enviornments as unimmersive as possible.. In GW2 its almost the polar opposite and while GW2 isn't as heavy on the story the atmosphere of the entire game more than makes up for this... my main beef with SWTOR is it just didn't feel like star wars, combat felt like any other MMO, enviornments did not immerse me into the story they were trying to tell. I honestly can't see how you felt SWTOR had better immersion than you felt in GW2

hi.i always enjoy watching the coolass videos/trailers for this game.

i played for a few weeks.its a decent game.completely overhyped imo,but not to bad.just needs more time.

coolass videos tho.

Executives can never admit a mistake, that would undermine their authority and damage their career. To you it is a game, to them it is their job and life.

Other than that, if you dance to the players demands you get crap games. If you don't listen to players you better be damned right - Problem is you aren't because you are no longer gamer, now you are an employee and out of touch.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Valentina

Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.

In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.

I really have no clue how you came ot that conclusion.. aside from the dialogue segments the design of SWTOR almost went out of its way ot make the actual planets and enviornments as unimmersive as possible.. In GW2 its almost the polar opposite and while GW2 isn't as heavy on the story the atmosphere of the entire game more than makes up for this... my main beef with SWTOR is it just didn't feel like star wars, combat felt like any other MMO, enviornments did not immerse me into the story they were trying to tell. I honestly can't see how you felt SWTOR had better immersion than you felt in GW2

The dialogue segments in GW2 are a joke, that's how I came to that conclusion. The questing-event system in GW2 is chaotic as hell, that's how I came to that conclusion. The voice overs in GW2 are mediocre at best, that is how I came to that conclusion. The environments in GW2 are smaller and the back drop is far more simplistic, that is also how I came to that conclusion.

If you read the beta forums, many of the complaints about GW2 are these things. During the last beta weekend the forums were FULL of these criticisim's. ArenaNet has actually been VERY receptive to these criticism's, so at least they know where their game is flawed. The fact that their "story' segments displace you from the world environment doesn't help the immersion factor AT ALL, and the fact your story decisions come up separately in a crappy little console-like menu doesn't help the immersion factor either.

Originally posted by Valentina

Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.

In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.

 Every game ever made has its fans and its detractors, pointing this out seems unnecessary.

When you hype up a game like Bioware did with SWTOR, you better have a game to match otherwise people will be upset and will voice thier displeasure.

And on a personal note, SWTOR is the least immersive mmo I think I have ever played. Everyone looks the same, the mobs all stand still waiting to be slaughtered like a bunch of handicapped sheep, no random open world pvp encounters, VO asking my JEDI MASTER to kill random creatures for thier claws, SMH. I could go on but they have already been said a thousand times on this forum. SWTOR is not immersive as an MMO or a singleplayer game, it's stuck in a wierd limbo between the two.

I don't have a problem with those who like the game, but to suggest that it's the players fault for expecting more is laughable. It's the same line Bioware uses when defending thier game. SWTOR could and should of been so much more than a VO single player co-op game where everyone wears the same gear and the planets all feel underdeveloped and static. And SWTOR has the worst PVP in an MMO I've seen outside of LOTRO, but at least Turbine never said anything about having the best PVP team in the industry, Bioware may need to start drug testing its devs.

Originally posted by SuperDonk

 

 Every game ever made has its fans and its detractors, pointing this out seems unnecessary.

 

When you hype up a game like Bioware did with SWTOR, you better have a game to match otherwise people will be upset and will voice thier displeasure.

 

And on a personal note, SWTOR is the least immersive mmo I think I have ever played. Everyone looks the same, the mobs all stand still waiting to be slaughtered like a bunch of handicapped sheep, no random open world pvp encounters, VO asking my JEDI MASTER to kill random creatures for thier claws, SMH. I could go on but they have already been said a thousand times on this forum. SWTOR is not immersive as an MMO or a singleplayer game, it's stuck in a wierd limbo between the two.

 

I don't have a problem with those who like the game, but to suggest that it's the players fault for expecting more is laughable. It's the same line Bioware uses when defending thier game. SWTOR could and should of been so much more than a VO single player co-op game where everyone wears the same gear and the planets all feel underdeveloped and static. And SWTOR has the worst PVP in an MMO I've seen outside of LOTRO, but at least Turbine never said anything about having the best PVP team in the industry, Bioware may need to start drug testing its devs.

and for a game with it's main sell point being the story and from a company who has made very immersive games in the past I have no clue how it went so wrong this time.

Originally posted by DeaconX

SWTOR is not dead.  To call it dead is just silly.  However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.

You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.

The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.

Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.

I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most.  If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.

You're the one I feel the sorriest for ( and not in a mean way lol ).

I remember how excited you were when you were "vindicated" when SW:ToR was finally announced after years of you swearing tooth and nail it was happening regardless of the naysayers ( including myself ). I don't think anyone was looking forward to it as bad as you were. I really wish EAware hadn't fucked it all up, if for nothing else than you could enjoy the game you hoped and championed for.

-Zor

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

Originally posted by DeaconX

SWTOR is not dead.  To call it dead is just silly.  However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.

You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.

The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.

Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.

I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most.  If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.

You're the one I feel the sorriest for ( and not in a mean way lol ).

I remember how excited you were when you were "vindicated" when SW:ToR was finally announced after years of you swearing tooth and nail it was happening regardless of the naysayers ( including myself ). I don't think anyone was looking forward to it as bad as you were. I really wish EAware hadn't fucked it all up, if for nothing else than you could enjoy the game you hoped and championed for.

-Zor

Heh, well thanks I appreciate that I suppose but... it is what it is.  In the end, it's just a game.  I still feel it could/should have been much more but such is life.

   I did not want the game to fail. I was dissapointed in what I percieved was it's development later on in the pre release TOR forums. They seemed to be going out of their way to please a WOTLK style gear progression crowd. I was not totally against a themepark however, not at all. But  I remember making an argument for pvp and pve components that were area spacific to make the two playstyles work together. I was immediately attacked for considering such an idea and was informed by many people that the WOW form of crafting was the future. Not kidding. 

Then I see these rediculous interviews part one and two of the four pillars. Which they basically tell me that space travel is a waste of time and there will be plenty of monsters and loot. But even that I could, sort of live with. Then the races, well there are  none. Ok there are different looking humans, some with spiked chins and some with a bandanas over their face. But none of the interesting ones. I protested in the forums of course only to be informed that no one would pay attention to races or how you looked because everyone would be having so much fun raiding. 

Then I read the Ensidia interview and knew all hope was lost. Sadly I still hoped it would be a decent game dispite my reservations but my worst fears came true. Mainly because if they ever do another Star Wars mmo I will probably be in my mid 40s by the time its out.

I think they thought they could make a bare bones WOW and put enough fluff and story so that people would not notice. The problem with the game is simple, lack of mechanics. It was simply badly designed. There was nothing wrong with the intent it was the actual production.

I called the subs at 400k a month ago, seems it might be lower than that now since the mass exodus after 1.2 has continued - possibly 200k or so by June time.

It is no wonder they fired everybody.

Remember "maintenance mode" in Warhammer? No additional content for a year, 6 developers total, game barely on life support.

That is where SWTOR is now.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

I called the subs at 400k a month ago, seems it might be lower than that now since the mass exodus after 1.2 has continued - possibly 200k or so by June time.

It is no wonder they fired everybody.

Remember "maintenance mode" in Warhammer? No additional content for a year, 6 developers total, game barely on life support.

That is where SWTOR is now.

Yup, maintenance mode coming soon. There's no way to fix the game. They'd have to start by getting rid of that abysmal hero engine first, and that's not going to happen. EA will put it on life support and drain every last cent from it as long as there are star wars fans, the niche players that will play it.

Swtor was destined to fail imo from the beginning. I say this because swtor development probably started at the height of WoW's popularity and so the publisher and developer thought they could make a similar game add a little bit of bioware's story and BAM you got a competitor to WOW. In most markets making a copy of a product will usually do a pretty decent job if done well, in the MMO market given the extremely long development time; if you were to just copy a competitor's product by the time you release it they might be a better product or the demand for such a product might have reduced. 

And so swtor why it might have been a good game a few years ago, is nothing more than a relic of the past. The worst thing about swtor and the way EA is treating it is because EA probably had high expectations of bioware (i mean look at their history B4 DA2 and Me3 ending lol). So they probably spent more money trying to make a clone and now that BW hasn't delivered they like any reasonable business need to cut their loses and reinvest the money somewhere else. Once an MMO starts on the wrong track it doesnt leave it. they hasn't been any MMO that made a turn around short of going f2p, but when compared to WOW's billion dollar revenue a year the chump change made by a f2p isn't worthy to stockholders.

The good news it that developers/publishers are probably gonna consider coming up new brand new ideas instead of copying the current king and more importantly they will have realistic expectations and budget the game as such. (moving on, i think that is the reason why the Dev for Titan got replaced, cuz he was probably trying to make a WoW2).

Originally posted by shinkan

bringing up class balance as a reason for SWTOR being dead is just stupid, class balance is only a real issue in pvp games.

EQ1 is a perfect example of what happens when class balance is very screwed up in a PVE MMO. Massive player exclusion from group and raid play just based on class selection was just the tip of the problems.

yeyeye blablabla swtor is bad blablabla

MOVE ON!

this was suppose to be the WoW killa; yeah right!

Companies should just stay away from the Star Wars IP, it is hard enough to make a good MMO, let alone having to pay the 30% royalty fee or whatever it is...Leads to bad decisions and cost cutting ones imo....Having someone outside the studio (LA) having final say is not the greatest plan either....

Heck rip it off, make a generic space game, save the IP money, and make it right...

Originally posted by Demmi77

 

It's sad really, how people can respond to, and treat their customers so badly. The only reason they have a job at bioware right now is because of loyal star wars fans hoping for change. 

 

I remember when the game was first announced and shortly thereafter some screenshots were released. There was a humungous constructive thread on character design and armor/item looks. Developers openly said they were stylizing the game to their liking. In beta (closed and open), the armor and stylization came up numerous times, to no avail.

 

There was also alot of developer interaction good and bad during development. People asked questions and posted ideas. When it came to the wow clone, kill x, courier, sandbox/themepark elements, it was very clear. Bioware, refused to lsiten to their customers on what they wanted. They were going to develop what they thought we wanted. 

 

The development at bioware really opened my eyes , to how they manage their development. Their treatment of the community is terrible.

 

things that really went wrong with swtor imo:

 

 

MMO , i feel like im playing a nexon game. It's less mmo than guild wars. 

 

space combat, probably one of the biggest things. It's star wars, space is 3/4 of what it's about. Bioware "focused on ground" k, but it's star wars, make a different mmo if you want to take the space out of star wars.... I just don't get how they could release a space combat like this. IT's like they got to end development and one of the developers was like "we forgot space". Developer lead says "oh man we gott ado something we release soon". Random developer "i can rip open my star fox cartridge and we can emulate it into our game". Lead developer "k , awesome dude, you saved us".

 

Solo, lonely feeling empty huge worlds.

 

 QA tester employed by bioware "hey guys, it feels really lonely here, the worlds are large but desolate". Lead developer "don't worry you will have a companion", "and the best thing about taht companion is you will need it to do all of your leveling". They made these huge worlds with no ambience, no interaction, hoth was when i realized they were just making larger zones so i would spend 90% of the quest just getting to the objective and back.

 

MOBS... the same thing ever zone. Static 4 normals, or 2 normals 1 silver etc... it never changes. No big roaming packs not suprises. By the time i was level 25 , i started to ask myself if they forgot to add some randomness to enemy npcs.

 

cities and hubs are void of life. THere is nothing going on. Again, it seems like they forgot or lost 25% of their development somewhere.

 

Crafting, just send companions....no originality whatsoever. It is a ripoff of wow, made easier. Seriously, take a step back and realize, one of the crafting skills was slicing. Send companion to go get money........come on.

 

The ui , macros , combat delay. All these things should have been addressed prior to release. It shows taht the developer has little to no respect for it's customers.]

 

pvp - 4 hours ques on servers for random warzones. I would say that open world pvp was a disaster since they shut it down. Snuffing ranked warzones 30 seconds before patch deployment probably cost them at least a chunk of subs.It ws the final nail in the coffin for me to be 100% honest. I did in fact enjoy pvp more than anything in star wars. It was the closest aspect of the game that gave me a star wars feel. After the duplicate random item bag issues, farming comms, etc i felt that ranked would at least give me a goal to shoot towards. 

 

1.2 and test realm. A$$hats , no character copies to test server, put end game content on test server. WTF is the point. Only thing people got to test was the ui change. hey they tested it, it works, everything else that was lvl 50+. They can't test it, durrr wonder why it still sucks.

 

forum moderation. Never seen anything like it, there is no community interaction from the developers. Its the same copy/paste posts over and over. Threads locked at an astronomical level. 

 

tldr game is crap, selfish devs, great single player, no community, no open world, no space combat, dead servers, horrible community management. wish it would get better, but after latest press release, selfish developer is selfish.

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings about SWTOR.

Guess what was one of the major reasons I gave up MMOs?

SWTOR.

and I no longer believe that the MMO Owners give a damn about the Players one bit... as long as the Owners get their money that don't care. SWTOR proved that if it proved anything at all.

enough said.