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Characters, Skills, Etc.  » discussion: Races with or without skills?

11 posts found
  xaritscin

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/11
Posts: 302

"Antherea Online will see the light, eventually"

 
OP  5/13/12 2:15:34 PM#1

i make this thread to discuss about Races, should they have special habilities or just have cosmetic differences?

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/15/12 6:46:55 PM#2

I've always been one for giving them a slight edge on certain takes of combat (etc), but not end-all. Otherwise, the kind of racial passive/actives you see in most games are enough to outright choose one based on utility, and not aesthetics - which, to me, defeats the entire purpose of picking a race.

The next real big step is by going further with the lore and bring it into mechanics. What are some race's behavioral patterns? Diets? Coming of age rituals? There is a lot things to draw on that can *become* gameplay, in a sense, anf actually make one race different from another in an fundamental, and understandable way.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  xaritscin

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/11
Posts: 302

"Antherea Online will see the light, eventually"

 
OP  5/15/12 7:57:11 PM#3
Originally posted by GTwander

I've always been one for giving them a slight edge on certain takes of combat (etc), but not end-all. Otherwise, the kind of racial passive/actives you see in most games are enough to outright choose one based on utility, and not aesthetics - which, to me, defeats the entire purpose of picking a race.

The next real big step is by going further with the lore and bring it into mechanics. What are some race's behavioral patterns? Diets? Coming of age rituals? There is a lot things to draw on that can *become* gameplay, in a sense, anf actually make one race different from another in an fundamental, and understandable way.

i think the same, i have yet to see an MMO or any other RPG or even RTS where races have inmersion of that level, they're always cosmetic or like in WoW, they have certain bonuses and special skills that give them and advantage in several aspects of the game.

its a shame, there should be a real reason to choose to be an Orc or an Elf, guess the problem is time and resources, a complete metagame focused on the world's society and every cultural detail for each class means a lot of work.

  Adamantine

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3252

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

5/22/12 2:54:01 AM#4

Races should be an option, compareable in power to subclasses, or not much weaker (*).

They could also get active or passive abilities. Preferably any character should get a selection of options to choose from, so if you have two members of the same race they still might not be the same.

 

(*): For example lets say one of the classes in your game is fighter, which can be picked up by humans, elves, dwarves and orcs. Maybe also gnomes.

Humans are typically the all around race, meaning they would probably have some advantage of the form of being faster to learn things (depends a lot upon how your classes work).

Elves could be kind of frail, but very dexterous. They might benefit greatly from lighter armor, deal less damage overall, but land more critical hits and have better range with bows. They also have elven senses (good darksight, good sight in distance) and elven mind (resistant against mind enchantments).

Dwarves would probably be especially sturdy, wearing the heaviest armor of all, basically still standing when everybody else is already dead, but not dishing out that much damage. They can see infrared and are resistant to magic in general.

And finally Orcs, one would design them most likely to be especially strong. Racial abilities would be kind of short timed, like short sprints or fearsome battlecries. They would probably be quite susceptible to fear and charm spells.

And lets say theres also Gnome. Gnome would be simply an inferior choice. They have slow running speed, weird weapons, and little damage. Probably they would mostly have to resort to ranged weapons, which they arent too good at either. Would have good defense thanks to high agility and reaction speed, though. They would also be somewhat susceptible to confusion spells, too.

Thus every race choice would substantly change the fighter class around, much like a subclass. The important point though is that there shouldnt be a race that is clearly in the advantage for any class choice. There can be some racial choices which are inferior, though. Just warn the player during character generation about it.

 

  xaritscin

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/11
Posts: 302

"Antherea Online will see the light, eventually"

 
OP  5/22/12 10:31:17 PM#5
Originally posted by Adamantine

Races should be an option, compareable in power to subclasses, or not much weaker (*).

They could also get active or passive abilities. Preferably any character should get a selection of options to choose from, so if you have two members of the same race they still might not be the same.

 

(*): For example lets say one of the classes in your game is fighter, which can be picked up by humans, elves, dwarves and orcs. Maybe also gnomes.

Humans are typically the all around race, meaning they would probably have some advantage of the form of being faster to learn things (depends a lot upon how your classes work).

Elves could be kind of frail, but very dexterous. They might benefit greatly from lighter armor, deal less damage overall, but land more critical hits and have better range with bows. They also have elven senses (good darksight, good sight in distance) and elven mind (resistant against mind enchantments).

Dwarves would probably be especially sturdy, wearing the heaviest armor of all, basically still standing when everybody else is already dead, but not dishing out that much damage. They can see infrared and are resistant to magic in general.

And finally Orcs, one would design them most likely to be especially strong. Racial abilities would be kind of short timed, like short sprints or fearsome battlecries. They would probably be quite susceptible to fear and charm spells.

And lets say theres also Gnome. Gnome would be simply an inferior choice. They have slow running speed, weird weapons, and little damage. Probably they would mostly have to resort to ranged weapons, which they arent too good at either. Would have good defense thanks to high agility and reaction speed, though. They would also be somewhat susceptible to confusion spells, too.

Thus every race choice would substantly change the fighter class around, much like a subclass. The important point though is that there shouldnt be a race that is clearly in the advantage for any class choice. There can be some racial choices which are inferior, though. Just warn the player during character generation about it.

 

that wouldnt give unbalance?, i mean, the idea is that every player should be able to enjoy every class for every race, in terms of PvP and what i read, any other race would be better than playing with a gnome.

 

  User Deleted
5/22/12 10:42:19 PM#6

I once played a game with three races each having a different type of bonus. One was power, one was speed, and the last was somewhere in the middle.

The gear was designed to counter balance the faction stat. Some people hated this model and others loved it. The most interresting thing I found, at least on the server that I played on, was that each faction tended to attact like minded people. This somewhat a generalizaton of course, but when talking to players of the other factions the similarities among the members were at the very least notable.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/23/12 5:31:52 PM#7
Originally posted by chefdiablo

The most interresting thing I found, at least on the server that I played on, was that each faction tended to attact like minded people.

Because that's exactly how it works.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  centkin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 721

5/23/12 6:04:10 PM#8

I am actually for it making differences throughout the whole levelling experience. 

IE not only do orcs get a +5 to damage with bladed weapons, and a +3 to general strength, and a -5 to wisdom, etc -- stat stuff, but they get several additional skills and do not get other skills for whatever class they choose.  IE they have a different style.

If you are an orc warrior you might get more bloodshouts, and berzerk type abilities, and not have certain finesse abilties that many other warriors have.

If you were instead an elf warrior, you might get a ton of finesse abilities and no bloodshouts or berzerker abilities etc. 

The races would make the classes vary enough that they would get the job done in very different ways and in some battles the orc warrior might do best and in other battles the elf warrior would be a better choice.

----

You would get at least 10 skills unique to your race in each class and be missing at least 5 skills from the normal skills of the class.  Maybe 2 or 3 general skills that all members of your race would get at level 1, another 3 skills that all members of your race eventually get, along with stats.

  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6129

6/24/12 2:26:22 PM#9

I like the way dungeon crawl stone soup (a rogue-like) does races.  Basically its a skill based game where you train skills from an xp pool you accumulate.  Your race determines how much xp you need to gain a point in a skil.

 

 

So a fast and small halfling advances in dodge and stealth much faster then a large centaur who has hooves.

  ghstwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/08
Posts: 386

7/05/12 8:54:23 PM#10


Originally posted by GTwander The next real big step is by going further with the lore and bring it into mechanics. What are some race's behavioral patterns? Diets? Coming of age rituals? There is a lot things to draw on that can *become* gameplay, in a sense, anf actually make one race different from another in an fundamental, and understandable way.

I'd love to see this. I'm not even sure it would be all that challenging to add these elements (assuming the required elements would exist with or without this usage).


Originally posted by xaritscin its a shame, there should be a real reason to choose to be an Orc or an Elf, guess the problem is time and resources, a complete metagame focused on the world's society and every cultural detail for each class means a lot of work.

As a "tacked on" system I would agree (see crafting in 90% of games), however as a foundational system it could offer good returns. I'll go out on a limb and give 1 possible (and I'll try for fairly low effort) implementation for GT's list.

  • Behavior- Dialog options are admittedly a ton of work, but if you already added them a racial mask/modifier to those options would show a lot about a race. Mass Effect's dialog wheel could likely be tweaked for this use.
  • Diet- Food buffs can vary by race (one might get strength another stam for example). Not much work and it levels the market for the various foods out there.
  • Coming of age Rituals- This is pretty much every starting zone anyways, just a small tweak to the presentation. Ideally, I'd "onion kid" players here, have them work with just the racial abilities (classes if applicable beginning at the end of this).

Overall only behavior takes a lot of extra time in my list. I'm pretty sure I could do better (re: lower effort/time) on that one if I gave it more thought (as much as I'd like to see this feature be used).

  Adamantine

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3252

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

4/30/13 5:09:11 AM#11

I think race should be an important decision about your character.

Not as important as class, but it should substantly modify your gaming experience. If you play an Elf Warrior, Gnome Warrior or Human Warrior, each time it should be a substantial difference. You should instantly have to take different aspects of the game into consideration and others should be unimportant or even nonexistent.

There should also be subraces, which have even less influence, but still shouldnt be just cosmetical.

In the hypotetical ideal game, race could for example specify:

- Looks, d'oh !

- Stat modifications. Not in a way that a race is clearly optimized for playing certain classes. Instead, it should modify the gaming experience. Humans traditionally are the "average" and get no stat modifications.

- Faction. So you are a Giant, so you have good faction with Gnomes, since they are the traditional ally of giants. Elves and Dwarves however dislike you. For saftely entering their cities, you better solve some questlines for them to gain the necessary faction. Maybe some race, say Orcs, has to do these quests with ALL races, while another race, say Gnome, never has to do them at all, but also never gets improved conditions either.

- Movement. Giants have a hard time to fit into small locations, and often have to duck or even crouch. Dwarves move a bit slower than other races, but their sprint ability lasts three times longer. Gnomes always have the ability to sneak, even if their class normally cant. And so on.

- Special abilities. Races can get special abilities that other races wont get. This is of course a huge factor to make races different. The most radical version of this is race dependent classes - the human warrior is now called a Gladiator, while the giant warrior is a Destroyer, and while they might still be from basic functionality be the same, they now dont share a single special ability.

- Other special stuff. For example a Feline race might need extra armor for their tail. Armor might be race dependent - the Giant simply cant use the gnomes armor. And so on and so forth.

- Lore. For example each race could get their own version of history.