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General Discussion  » Most of the media are getting "it" wrong....

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75 posts found
  User Deleted
5/10/12 6:16:58 PM#41
Originally posted by Yamota

I agree with the OP. The idea that you cannot make an open ended MMORPG similar to Skyrim is nonsense. Ultima Online was that kind of game so was Asheron's Call and SWG. So it is possible but it then it would not be catering to the WoW/ThemePark crowd, which is why it probably is not being made that away.

Its not that it cant be done because it has in those you mentioned.  What gets me so so freaking mad is they would have the gall to actually say it cant be done because anyone with a semi-working braid knows what they are doing is nothing short of a cash grab.  What amazes me is that any company could look at the market and see it littered with failed WoW clones and think to themselves:  "You know what the MMO genre needs, is another WoW clone".  Its fu*king ignorant and stupid to believe anyone could believe something but then again look at the financial markets and the state of the economy so I guess it should come as no surprise.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

5/10/12 6:20:02 PM#42
Originally posted by necredon
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by necredon

I picked it from a list and it says "warrior" on my character info screen.

thats not a class. I am sorry i didnt know you were new to RPGs and didnt know the difference between a class and a sign

 

http://www.plasticgraveyard.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Morrowind_menu.jpg

Me being new or not to RPG's isn't of any importance of what we are talking about or this topic so I really don't think that had any purpose there other then being hostile.

On top of that, you are wrong. Look at the image I posted here. Don't see it? Then look again.

Actually your ignorance is of high importance.  The image you posted doesn't really mean anything.  A "rogue" can use heavy armor.  A "rogue" can also use destruction magic.  If he wanted to, he could unleash fireballs, about the exact opposite of stealth.  Again, the "rogue" has certain skills he "prefers" (according to preset definitions) and when you use those skills, they level at a slightly (again slightly) faster rate.  Those contribute to raising your overall level, which is actually pretty pointless in the TES games, especially in Oblivion and Skyrim with scaling difficulty, outside of when you can start this or that quest.

Scroll down to those "misc" skills, and take a screenie of that.  It proves you wrong.  The way TES approaches skills is fundamentally different from other SRPG's.  With them, you picked a class, and you had certain abilities you could choose from, but couldn't choose others.  You were locked in from the start.

That wasn't the case in TES.  So being a "warrior" or "rogue" really meant nothing.  I know in Oblivion (been too long since I fired up Mwind) you could create custom classes.  I could call a class a "healer" that could function more as a shock infrantry soldier swinging a gigantic mace in full daedric armor and using no healing spells.  It was just a name.

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  5/10/12 6:40:24 PM#43
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Yamota

I agree with the OP. The idea that you cannot make an open ended MMORPG similar to Skyrim is nonsense. Ultima Online was that kind of game so was Asheron's Call and SWG. So it is possible but it then it would not be catering to the WoW/ThemePark crowd, which is why it probably is not being made that away.

Its not that it cant be done because it has in those you mentioned.  What gets me so so freaking mad is they would have the gall to actually say it cant be done because anyone with a semi-working braid knows what they are doing is nothing short of a cash grab.  What amazes me is that any company could look at the market and see it littered with failed WoW clones and think to themselves:  "You know what the MMO genre needs, is another WoW clone".  Its fu*king ignorant and stupid to believe anyone could believe something but then again look at the financial markets and the state of the economy so I guess it should come as no surprise.

Pretty Much This ^

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  Kabaal

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/05
Posts: 2958

Haggis Humper

5/10/12 6:45:25 PM#44
Originally posted by Yamota

I agree with the OP. The idea that you cannot make an open ended MMORPG similar to Skyrim is nonsense. Ultima Online was that kind of game so was Asheron's Call and SWG. So it is possible but it then it would not be catering to the WoW/ThemePark crowd, which is why it probably is not being made that away.

Hardly anyone wanted to play those games. From a money standpoint they are the last type of MMO's any company wants to be involved in.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

5/10/12 6:48:50 PM#45
Originally posted by iceman00

That wasn't the case in TES.  So being a "warrior" or "rogue" really meant nothing.  I know in Oblivion (been too long since I fired up Mwind) you could create custom classes.  I could call a class a "healer" that could function more as a shock infrantry soldier swinging a gigantic mace in full daedric armor and using no healing spells.  It was just a name.

 

Same in Morrowind.  One could pick a pre-made class or custom build a class to their own specifications.  The system was insanely powerful.  All skills, even those not classified as major or minor could be developed.  The only difference would be that skillups in those skills didn't count towards levels.  A character was never locked out from doing anything even if it wasn't part of their class.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

5/10/12 6:58:28 PM#46
Originally posted by Kabaal
Originally posted by Yamota

I agree with the OP. The idea that you cannot make an open ended MMORPG similar to Skyrim is nonsense. Ultima Online was that kind of game so was Asheron's Call and SWG. So it is possible but it then it would not be catering to the WoW/ThemePark crowd, which is why it probably is not being made that away.

Hardly anyone wanted to play those games. From a money standpoint they are the last type of MMO's any company wants to be involved in.

Those specific games?  no, they don't.  They are also dead.  ;)

But things from those games people certainly want in their game.  They want out of the linear trinity themepark prison  MMOs have become.  We shall see what TES will do on the way their quest system works, but on the other things not having to do with pvp, not looking good so far.  (And Trinity style pvp is boring and mostly stat, not skill based.)

  Kabaal

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/05
Posts: 2958

Haggis Humper

5/10/12 7:05:46 PM#47
Originally posted by iceman00
Originally posted by Kabaal
Originally posted by Yamota

I agree with the OP. The idea that you cannot make an open ended MMORPG similar to Skyrim is nonsense. Ultima Online was that kind of game so was Asheron's Call and SWG. So it is possible but it then it would not be catering to the WoW/ThemePark crowd, which is why it probably is not being made that away.

Hardly anyone wanted to play those games. From a money standpoint they are the last type of MMO's any company wants to be involved in.

Those specific games?  no, they don't.  They are also dead.  ;)

But things from those games people certainly want in their game.  They want out of the linear trinity themepark prison  MMOs have become.  We shall see what TES will do on the way their quest system works, but on the other things not having to do with pvp, not looking good so far.  (And Trinity style pvp is boring and mostly stat, not skill based.)

They're dead for a reason, they never made much money and never had any sub populations worth talking about.

As for TESO, I'd have loved a proper Morrowind or Skyrim Online but it doesn't sound like this will be anywhere close so far. More like a generic fantasy MMO with TES as an afterthought.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

5/10/12 7:19:27 PM#48
Originally posted by Kabaal
Originally posted by iceman00
Originally posted by Kabaal
Originally posted by Yamota

I agree with the OP. The idea that you cannot make an open ended MMORPG similar to Skyrim is nonsense. Ultima Online was that kind of game so was Asheron's Call and SWG. So it is possible but it then it would not be catering to the WoW/ThemePark crowd, which is why it probably is not being made that away.

Hardly anyone wanted to play those games. From a money standpoint they are the last type of MMO's any company wants to be involved in.

Those specific games?  no, they don't.  They are also dead.  ;)

But things from those games people certainly want in their game.  They want out of the linear trinity themepark prison  MMOs have become.  We shall see what TES will do on the way their quest system works, but on the other things not having to do with pvp, not looking good so far.  (And Trinity style pvp is boring and mostly stat, not skill based.)

They're dead for a reason, they never made much money and never had any sub populations worth talking about.

As for TESO, I'd have loved a proper Morrowind or Skyrim Online but it doesn't sound like this will be anywhere close so far. More like a generic fantasy MMO with TES as an afterthought.

Before WoW, 300,000 people was far from dead.  The market for MMO gamers was a lot smaller back then.

Since WoW, every company has thought that to make a "successful" MMO, we have to copy everything WoW does.  And for the most part, they have failed spectacularly to even get 1/10th of the subscribers WoW has.

So to be honest, a lot of people don't want to play the Trinity style on rails linear themepark MMO either, but that hasn't really stopped people from making them has it?

  Golelorn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1090

5/10/12 9:57:35 PM#49

I find it hard to believe companies are still trying to chase WoW gameplay. How is it not obvious to developers WoW gameplay will flop right out of the gate?

 

If it didn't work for a Star Wars title its not going to work for TES.

 

I really don't even understand how that would work, or why someone would want to play that.

  Kert

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 68

5/10/12 10:02:49 PM#50
Originally posted by Kabaal
Originally posted by Yamota

I agree with the OP. The idea that you cannot make an open ended MMORPG similar to Skyrim is nonsense. Ultima Online was that kind of game so was Asheron's Call and SWG. So it is possible but it then it would not be catering to the WoW/ThemePark crowd, which is why it probably is not being made that away.

Hardly anyone wanted to play those games. From a money standpoint they are the last type of MMO's any company wants to be involved in.

 

Lots of people played those games. Age does eventually catch up to games, not withstanding other major game issues *cough* SWG *cough*.

The biggest problems games have today is that they're "not as big as WoW", in the eyes of the publishers it seems. I've said this before in a number of threads. Until developers and publishers realize that WoW type popularity is unlikely to happen again, and focus on a certain gamer demographic and develop a quality game aimed at.... wait for it.... a certain niche market.

It'd be like owning a small restaurant chain, being profitable, with a solid stable customer base, and being upset that you're not as big as McDonalds. Aiming big is fine, but at some point someone has to say... WoW did it like no other, lets try something completely different.

The success of Skyrim should have pointed out that there is a market for those types of games, but for some reason, devs, and publishers are too dense to get the message.

  Leodious

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/06
Posts: 782

The best way to travel is by means of imagination.

5/11/12 1:39:30 AM#51
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Yamota

I agree with the OP. The idea that you cannot make an open ended MMORPG similar to Skyrim is nonsense. Ultima Online was that kind of game so was Asheron's Call and SWG. So it is possible but it then it would not be catering to the WoW/ThemePark crowd, which is why it probably is not being made that away.

Its not that it cant be done because it has in those you mentioned.  What gets me so so freaking mad is they would have the gall to actually say it cant be done because anyone with a semi-working braid knows what they are doing is nothing short of a cash grab.  What amazes me is that any company could look at the market and see it littered with failed WoW clones and think to themselves:  "You know what the MMO genre needs, is another WoW clone".  Its fu*king ignorant and stupid to believe anyone could believe something but then again look at the financial markets and the state of the economy so I guess it should come as no surprise.

Pretty Much This ^

Pretty much this. 

 

I guess the idea is that flooding the market with the same old shit is better than trying to hit a niche market, because you are more likely to siphon off sales than you are to reach a large enough portion of an already small base. I think it's wrong, but I can see how investor might make that argument.

What I can't fathom is how, with TES, when you have a very large, established fan base that clearly prefers a certain set of things in their games (which you can see not only with sales and reviews and critiques, but also with mods), and you plan to make a MMO of that franchise's world, you take the MMO in a totally different direction in every fathomable way from the single-player version.

Hell, TESO might end up being a great game if that's the kind of game you are into. But it won't be like a TES game, not really, And when it is so patently obvious that they deviated so widely from the design philosphy of the single-player franchise, it should give us pause.

"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."

— John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman

  Onigod

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/07
Posts: 692

5/11/12 1:41:31 AM#52

Just look at the graphics, it is almost like they want to make there game look like all the asian games.

  LordRelic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 292

5/11/12 1:45:20 AM#53

I love how people complain about them using THERE ip as they see fit.

I also love how people complain and moan like they said this is it no more after this we will no longer be making a single player tes game.   Come on get over yourself and grow up you know how you make them learn there leasson? dont buy it. Simple easy  and you dont have to drag the world down into your little hopless pit.

  MikkelB

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/23/06
Posts: 240

5/11/12 2:25:32 AM#54
Originally posted by LordRelic

I love how people complain about them using THERE ip as they see fit.

I also love how people complain and moan like they said this is it no more after this we will no longer be making a single player tes game.   Come on get over yourself and grow up you know how you make them learn there leasson? dont buy it. Simple easy  and you dont have to drag the world down into your little hopless pit.

The thing that annoys me at least, is that they could've made a new IP or just made DAoC 2 (which TESO was compared with yesterday), instead of using the TES IP to create a non-TES game (in my opinion at least). To me it looks that they're borrowing the IP for some easy money, ultimately harming the IP.

TES for me, has always been a climb to the top. From being a prisoner, a nobody, to the hero of that particular time. Something like that is (at the moment) impossible to recreate in a MMO, because of the simple fact that you're not alone. Combine that with other elements that are characteristic of a TES game (the exploration, the buttload of dungeons, scaling enemies, the leveling system, to be able to kill of NPC's permanently, etc.) and a MMO in the TES style is simply very hard, if not impossible to make. So why use the IP if you now that there is a strong possibility that people are going to have expectations that can't be met? That caused a lot of this bile in the past week.

For the record, I don't think anyone in this thread made the assumption that Bethesda won't make a single player TES game anymore.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

5/11/12 2:32:56 AM#55
Originally posted by MikkelB

For the record, I don't think anyone in this thread made the assumption that Bethesda won't make a single player TES game anymore.

If they follow their pattern, it's already in the works and a tightly guarded secret.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/11/12 8:12:49 AM#56
Originally posted by necredon
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by necredon

I picked it from a list and it says "warrior" on my character info screen.

thats not a class. I am sorry i didnt know you were new to RPGs and didnt know the difference between a class and a sign

 

http://www.plasticgraveyard.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Morrowind_menu.jpg

Me being new or not to RPG's isn't of any importance of what we are talking about or this topic so I really don't think that had any purpose there other then being hostile.

On top of that, you are wrong. Look at the image I posted here. Don't see it? Then look again.

looks like I was wrong:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes

although I dont recall classes in Morrowind but it appears there was AND they have 'signifcate influence on your character' which I find odd..hmmm I dont know what I think of that in the context of this new game.

 

I think my question to everyone is this: when articles written about the new game says 'game will be class based' based on what you are showing me here is it then fair to say morrowind is class based? I would think not but I am to understand your position is that we should consider morrowind a 'class based game' is that correct?

Correlation does not imply causation

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15684

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/11/12 10:04:41 AM#57
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

looks like I was wrong:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes

although I dont recall classes in Morrowind but it appears there was AND they have 'signifcate influence on your character' which I find odd..hmmm I dont know what I think of that in the context of this new game.

 

I think my question to everyone is this: when articles written about the new game says 'game will be class based' based on what you are showing me here is it then fair to say morrowind is class based? I would think not but I am to understand your position is that we should consider morrowind a 'class based game' is that correct?

I always looked at them as hybrid, at least as far as Morrowind and Oblivion go. Skyrim did away with that aspect and is purely skill based. At least on the players side.

That said, just about every NPC is a generic class.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Souldrainer

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/06
Posts: 1878

5/11/12 1:22:01 PM#58
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

From all of the negative press I've been reading over the past week or so of TESO countless times I've come across articles that simply miss the point entirely as to why TESO is a bad investment (or idea) overall as an MMO.

 

Look, the reason TESO is horrible isn't because "The Elder Scrolls" series wouldn't work well as an MMO. Quite frankly, the opposite is true from myself, and my friend's, perspective. However, the TRUE problem with TESO is that they've taken the TES franchise and gone in an ENTIRELY different direction from what TheElderScrolls series has always been about.

 

Some examples:

-TESO is similar to TheElderScrolls series is as Blizzard making World of Warcraft 2 would be similar to StarWars: Galaxies 

-TESO is to TheElderScrolls series as Call of Duty is to the BattleField series, and vice versa.

 

Quite frankly, they've taken a relatively well known franchise and completely changed the "Target Mindset" for the entire series simply to get a larger profit margin. It's a poor strategy, and numerous studios are near-bust for similar moves. It's a bad investment overall, and unless the developers make a DRASTIC change to TESO (short of scrapping it entirely) they're in for a horrible surprise come release around 2014-2015 (should 2012 not be our last year =P).

 

 

So PLEASE, stop getting it wrong as to why there's SO MUCH negativity around The Elder Scrolls: Online. It is most certainly NOT because TES doesn't fit into an MMO environment. It is because the design decisions around the game, and it's playstyle, are COMPLETELY off-base with its fans. 

 

-Thank You

I agree.  Certain things about the game do excite me, but it's not the application of the license.  Elder Scrolls games need to be sandboxes.  I hate sandbox MMOs, personally, but it's not about me.  It's about an MMO staying faithful to its IP.  NO  Holy trinity and NO Themepark elements.

 

So, this game we have will be a 3-faction spiritual successor to DAOC?  Cool!  Now go and pick an IP that fits the game.  And while we are at it, scrap the Hero engine.  The game is already boasting several hundred players on screen at once, and we all know the Hero engine cannot even handle 1/4 of this number.

Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/11/12 1:53:40 PM#59
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

From all of the negative press I've been reading over the past week or so of TESO countless times I've come across articles that simply miss the point entirely as to why TESO is a bad investment (or idea) overall as an MMO.

 

Look, the reason TESO is horrible isn't because "The Elder Scrolls" series wouldn't work well as an MMO. Quite frankly, the opposite is true from myself, and my friend's, perspective. However, the TRUE problem with TESO is that they've taken the TES franchise and gone in an ENTIRELY different direction from what TheElderScrolls series has always been about.

 

Some examples:

-TESO is similar to TheElderScrolls series is as Blizzard making World of Warcraft 2 would be similar to StarWars: Galaxies 

-TESO is to TheElderScrolls series as Call of Duty is to the BattleField series, and vice versa.

 

Quite frankly, they've taken a relatively well known franchise and completely changed the "Target Mindset" for the entire series simply to get a larger profit margin. It's a poor strategy, and numerous studios are near-bust for similar moves. It's a bad investment overall, and unless the developers make a DRASTIC change to TESO (short of scrapping it entirely) they're in for a horrible surprise come release around 2014-2015 (should 2012 not be our last year =P).

 

 

So PLEASE, stop getting it wrong as to why there's SO MUCH negativity around The Elder Scrolls: Online. It is most certainly NOT because TES doesn't fit into an MMO environment. It is because the design decisions around the game, and it's playstyle, are COMPLETELY off-base with its fans. 

 

-Thank You

I agree.  Certain things about the game do excite me, but it's not the application of the license.  Elder Scrolls games need to be sandboxes.  I hate sandbox MMOs, personally, but it's not about me.  It's about an MMO staying faithful to its IP.  NO  Holy trinity and NO Themepark elements.

 

So, this game we have will be a 3-faction spiritual successor to DAOC?  Cool!  Now go and pick an IP that fits the game.  And while we are at it, scrap the Hero engine.  The game is already boasting several hundred players on screen at once, and we all know the Hero engine cannot even handle 1/4 of this number.

I never understood the appeal of factions. The developers actually have to spend time, effort and your money making the game MORE restrictive then if they just let players create their own offline factions (aka let everyone attack everyone execpt for people who dont want pvp)

Correlation does not imply causation

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

5/11/12 10:18:12 PM#60
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

From all of the negative press I've been reading over the past week or so of TESO countless times I've come across articles that simply miss the point entirely as to why TESO is a bad investment (or idea) overall as an MMO.

 

Look, the reason TESO is horrible isn't because "The Elder Scrolls" series wouldn't work well as an MMO. Quite frankly, the opposite is true from myself, and my friend's, perspective. However, the TRUE problem with TESO is that they've taken the TES franchise and gone in an ENTIRELY different direction from what TheElderScrolls series has always been about.

 

Some examples:

-TESO is similar to TheElderScrolls series is as Blizzard making World of Warcraft 2 would be similar to StarWars: Galaxies 

-TESO is to TheElderScrolls series as Call of Duty is to the BattleField series, and vice versa.

 

Quite frankly, they've taken a relatively well known franchise and completely changed the "Target Mindset" for the entire series simply to get a larger profit margin. It's a poor strategy, and numerous studios are near-bust for similar moves. It's a bad investment overall, and unless the developers make a DRASTIC change to TESO (short of scrapping it entirely) they're in for a horrible surprise come release around 2014-2015 (should 2012 not be our last year =P).

 

 

So PLEASE, stop getting it wrong as to why there's SO MUCH negativity around The Elder Scrolls: Online. It is most certainly NOT because TES doesn't fit into an MMO environment. It is because the design decisions around the game, and it's playstyle, are COMPLETELY off-base with its fans. 

 

-Thank You

I agree.  Certain things about the game do excite me, but it's not the application of the license.  Elder Scrolls games need to be sandboxes.  I hate sandbox MMOs, personally, but it's not about me.  It's about an MMO staying faithful to its IP.  NO  Holy trinity and NO Themepark elements.

 

So, this game we have will be a 3-faction spiritual successor to DAOC?  Cool!  Now go and pick an IP that fits the game.  And while we are at it, scrap the Hero engine.  The game is already boasting several hundred players on screen at once, and we all know the Hero engine cannot even handle 1/4 of this number.

I never understood the appeal of factions. The developers actually have to spend time, effort and your money making the game MORE restrictive then if they just let players create their own offline factions (aka let everyone attack everyone execpt for people who dont want pvp)

Player made factions require a lot of dedication from a fanbase.  EVE honed their mechanics pretty early on and has shown it can be done, but I honestly doubt most "AAA" (how I hate that term!) MMOs actually want to work that hard on such a mechanic.

Personally there are some great opportunities for "factions" based on those already in the game.  We know both the Morag Tong and Dark Broterhood are active during the time they set the game.  So there is a chance for some good ol murder for hire, even player bounties right there.  Have the three "factions" competing for the throne, and everyone making liberal use of hired killers.

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