Originally posted by Shmackpappy

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

I would consider myself a somewhat casual player too but it seems to me most MMOs just make it easy to the extreme.

There's always ways to make your own challenge in the leveling (or any other) content.

People just don't want to commit to it...I would like the game to hand me "challenge" please. 

Too lazy...to...consciously...look for...challenge...  {eyes cross}

Is it really about challenging yourself, you want to be one of those "doing the impossible" raid-boss-soloing video-maker guys?

Or is it about external validation?

Actually, yes, I do expect them to hand me a challenge.  And since I am paying them $15 a month, I don't think that it's unresonable.  If I am playing the game the way it's meant to be played and it's too easy then I'm not about to go out of my way to create a way to make it more challenging.  That's the developers job and it's why I'm paying them.  Since I can't seem gain satisfaction in this I have simply stopped playing MMOs and started playing games that provide the challenge and don't require me to manufacture my own.

Agree with you there. It's the develoeprs job to do something that keeps the player interested. Sadly the industry standard MMO combat is some random mobs standing around on a field, waiting for players to come and kill them one by one presenting zero challange or excitement in the process. Enemies have became just means of progressing rather than the actual content of the games as it has come to a point there is literally 0 challange in your average MMO fight.

Correction to my post above.  I actually do play 1 MMO still.  I play Wizard101 with my kids and I enjoy it more and it provides more challenge then the AAA MMOs I have played. 

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

  I will wait for the new crop of MMOs to come out and see what they have to offer. 

 

Just a request to the developers out there.  Please add a little bit of a challenge to these games.  Just a wee bit.   Without a challenge it’s just not fun. 

Get a beta key from gamespot for The Secret World that has an open beta weekend starting tomorrow and come back on monday and tell me how many times you died. I dare you! ;)

Anyway, the focus in TSW isn't combat in my opinion, since it's partly and adventure game, but Funcom has a tendency to make their games kind of difficult. You can see a bit about how the dungeons are going to be in this preview: http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/secret-world-dungeons/

Part of the issue is what I call 'The Creator Syndrome'.

The Everquest expansion, Dragons of Norrath, had about 60 different group instance missions.  Each had their own unque objectives.  It didnt take long for the EQ community to figure out the one called 'The Creator' was not only easy, but could be done fairly quickly.  Despite the fact that most people hadn't tried more than 2 or 3 out of the 60 available missions, instead of trying something new people flocked to The Creator.  LFG DoN was synonymous with LFG Creator.  Bascally the masses flocked to the path of least resistance.

Most games out there have challenging content.  People choose to either avoid it for something easier, or stack the deck in their favor by forming the perfect group with the perfect specs  People will always seek out the path of least resistance.

As a side note about EQ2:  It does get harder in later levels.  The older part of the game got thrown out of whack by AAs and stronger gear.  Want a fun challenge for your SK?  Try soloiing same level dungeons or instances.  The games challenge does pick up, but it does take a long time.

so basically this whole thread is " because i can level up easier"  the game is easy???

So what a game where you have to spend months leveling is hard?.

Just dont get the point.  Who the hell wants tp spend months or even weeks and weeks leveling.  Why cant you enjoy leveling  even if it dosnt take weeks and months?  whats to stop you from exploor doing anything more difficult?.

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

 

 

Just a request to the developers out there.  Please add a little bit of a challenge to these games.  Just a wee bit.   Without a challenge it’s just not fun. 

What would it take to make to convince you to take on an arbitrary handicap?  I mean, there are loads of ways of making a game harder on yourself by setting challenge (eg: non-magical gear only).   What's holding you back from taking on one of these challenge styles?  A lack of formal achievements/recognition for doing it?  Fear that other players will refuse to play with someone who isn't min-maxing?   An inability to feel accomplishment from something that *could* have been done more easily?

I absolutely hate your idea.  Games need to challenge a player's quick thinking and strategy.  RPG's need to challenge a players ability to create an effective death machine.  Giving oneself artificial handicaps forces a person to ignore the fun in making effective builds or whatever character progression the game offers.  I want a game that is hard as hell but gives you the tools of badassery.  Dark Souls is a great example of this.  The game wants you dead.  It really does.  But it also gives you the tools to make a very powerful character that might just make it though.  That is fun.  That is how to make RPGs. 

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

 

 

Just a request to the developers out there.  Please add a little bit of a challenge to these games.  Just a wee bit.   Without a challenge it’s just not fun. 

What would it take to make to convince you to take on an arbitrary handicap?  I mean, there are loads of ways of making a game harder on yourself by setting challenge (eg: non-magical gear only).   What's holding you back from taking on one of these challenge styles?  A lack of formal achievements/recognition for doing it?  Fear that other players will refuse to play with someone who isn't min-maxing?   An inability to feel accomplishment from something that *could* have been done more easily?

I absolutely hate your idea.  Games need to challenge a player's quick thinking and strategy.  RPG's need to challenge a players ability to create an effective death machine.  Giving oneself artificial handicaps forces a person to ignore the fun in making effective builds or whatever character progression the game offers.  I want a game that is hard as hell but gives you the tools of badassery.  Dark Souls is a great example of this.  The game wants you dead.  It really does.  But it also gives you the tools to make a very powerful character that might just make it though.  That is fun.  That is how to make RPGs. 

In your opinion.

Originally posted by chilliz

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

 

 

Just a request to the developers out there.  Please add a little bit of a challenge to these games.  Just a wee bit.   Without a challenge it’s just not fun. 

What would it take to make to convince you to take on an arbitrary handicap?  I mean, there are loads of ways of making a game harder on yourself by setting challenge (eg: non-magical gear only).   What's holding you back from taking on one of these challenge styles?  A lack of formal achievements/recognition for doing it?  Fear that other players will refuse to play with someone who isn't min-maxing?   An inability to feel accomplishment from something that *could* have been done more easily?

I absolutely hate your idea.  Games need to challenge a player's quick thinking and strategy.  RPG's need to challenge a players ability to create an effective death machine.  Giving oneself artificial handicaps forces a person to ignore the fun in making effective builds or whatever character progression the game offers.  I want a game that is hard as hell but gives you the tools of badassery.  Dark Souls is a great example of this.  The game wants you dead.  It really does.  But it also gives you the tools to make a very powerful character that might just make it though.  That is fun.  That is how to make RPGs. 

 

In your opinion.

Thanks for the insightful post.  Luckily you said something or people might have thought that my post wasn't actually my opinion.

What does challenge mean to you?

1. powerful quest-mobs

2. situations where you have to think and make the right decision

3. raid-content

4. the option to fail

You are just talking about 1 

2 would be my favorite one, but most of the players are completely overstrained and ask in the general chat or look up guides in the internet

3 is the classical answer, but what if some players just do not like such content?

4 would be revolutionary, you cannot do the same over and over again until you succeed, if you fail something bad happens.

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

So, all the game play is at the end game?  I should waste my time for months until I get to the level cap and then it will be fun?  Why would I ever do that.  That makes the game even more pointless.  And, btw, I played for a few months before I finally gave up. 

Not ALL the gameplay.  But you're 8 years late to the game, you have to allow for the fact that the majority of players aren't doing that stuff no.  8 years ago, level 10-50 dungeons were challenging.    7 years ago, 50-60 dungeons were, etc, etc.   Today, the challenges are in the most recently added content.  Levels 85-92.    Don't get me wrong, if you find enough level 20 people to do a level 20 x4 raid or run Varsoon's, you'll probably still get a decent challenge.  You just won't find that many players at that level.

Also, you don't need to waste months.  You say you want a challenge and you're able to mow down mobs WAY too quickly?  Challenge yourself to get to 92 in a week.  I know plenty of people that have done it in a day.   Of course they had veteran bonuses and things, but for a new player, a week is very doable.  And then you can experience for yourself the really challenging content. 

You can't really expect to join an 8-year-old game and be caught up to where everyone is with no effort whatsoever.  As you saw, SOE has made it very easy to catch up, but you still have to put in SOME effort.

If you decide to do this on Crushbone, I'll be happy to throw you in some money for extra toys to buy along the way. (Although honestly, if you're leveling, you get tons of money and plenty of drops to wear.)  And when you get to 90, i'll help you though a couple of the more difficult things that you may not know about - such as getting your epic weapon done, etc.

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

 

 

Just a request to the developers out there.  Please add a little bit of a challenge to these games.  Just a wee bit.   Without a challenge it’s just not fun. 

What would it take to make to convince you to take on an arbitrary handicap?  I mean, there are loads of ways of making a game harder on yourself by setting challenge (eg: non-magical gear only).   What's holding you back from taking on one of these challenge styles?  A lack of formal achievements/recognition for doing it?  Fear that other players will refuse to play with someone who isn't min-maxing?   An inability to feel accomplishment from something that *could* have been done more easily?

I absolutely hate your idea.  Games need to challenge a player's quick thinking and strategy.  RPG's need to challenge a players ability to create an effective death machine.  Giving oneself artificial handicaps forces a person to ignore the fun in making effective builds or whatever character progression the game offers.  I want a game that is hard as hell but gives you the tools of badassery.  Dark Souls is a great example of this.  The game wants you dead.  It really does.  But it also gives you the tools to make a very powerful character that might just make it though.  That is fun.  That is how to make RPGs. 

So you want the developer to impose a handicap on you ... and that makes it a completely different experience than imposing it on yourself?

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

 

 

Just a request to the developers out there.  Please add a little bit of a challenge to these games.  Just a wee bit.   Without a challenge it’s just not fun. 

What would it take to make to convince you to take on an arbitrary handicap?  I mean, there are loads of ways of making a game harder on yourself by setting challenge (eg: non-magical gear only).   What's holding you back from taking on one of these challenge styles?  A lack of formal achievements/recognition for doing it?  Fear that other players will refuse to play with someone who isn't min-maxing?   An inability to feel accomplishment from something that *could* have been done more easily?

I absolutely hate your idea.  Games need to challenge a player's quick thinking and strategy.  RPG's need to challenge a players ability to create an effective death machine.  Giving oneself artificial handicaps forces a person to ignore the fun in making effective builds or whatever character progression the game offers.  I want a game that is hard as hell but gives you the tools of badassery.  Dark Souls is a great example of this.  The game wants you dead.  It really does.  But it also gives you the tools to make a very powerful character that might just make it though.  That is fun.  That is how to make RPGs. 

So you want the developer to impose a handicap on you ... and that makes it a completely different experience than imposing it on yourself?

He wants the devs to hand him challenge rather than having to to work to create it himself.  It's very linear, superficial thinking.  He does not think that he can play a 'badass' character unless he always uses the most powerful tools at his disposal.   In contrast we tend to view someone as 'badass' when he is able to achieve victory using the bare minimum of tools. 

This reminds me of a scene in Chronicles of Riddick.  Some guards threaten Riddick so he takes a metal cup and tells  a guard that he will kill him with the cup.  The guard still attack so Riddick kills him with the cup before anyone can even blink.   This illustrates just how dangerous Riddick is and you would not get the same level of 'badass' if he used a gun instead.

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Shmackpappy

 

 

Just a request to the developers out there.  Please add a little bit of a challenge to these games.  Just a wee bit.   Without a challenge it’s just not fun. 

What would it take to make to convince you to take on an arbitrary handicap?  I mean, there are loads of ways of making a game harder on yourself by setting challenge (eg: non-magical gear only).   What's holding you back from taking on one of these challenge styles?  A lack of formal achievements/recognition for doing it?  Fear that other players will refuse to play with someone who isn't min-maxing?   An inability to feel accomplishment from something that *could* have been done more easily?

I've tried this a few times.  I've picked the class that is considered under-powered or the one nobody plays.  It didn't make the game that much harder.  It did make it more boring.  I was still able to complete the quests it just took longer.  It is also frustrating if you want a group because nobody wants your class given a choice.

In one game I even tried turning off the monitor once a fight began to see if I could win just by listening to the sound effects.  I actually did pretty well.

I really enjoy min-maxing and crunching the numbers so intentionally gimping my skills or  abilities is defeating the purpose of playing the game for me.