|13 posts found|
OP 5/09/12 5:36:59 AM#1
I posted this in another thread but i would like to explore it further so im reposting here.. Its a way to have a mmo without concepts like money, experience and levelling.
Moneyless economy at the start
the game has something called "orders". There is an order for each type of profession whether it is a tailor, cook, fighter, mage, log cutter, or blacksmith.
the defining feature of the order is the request system. All the request system does is hook up combatants with crafters and vice versa to make equipment and supplies that are needed ingame.
as a fighter well say i can go out in the world and collect materials from monsters that i will need to make a sword. Ill take these materials and submit a request for fabrication. My request goes to the order, so every blacksmith in the game can see my request and fill my order. The reverse is also true. As a blacksmith i can put in an order to the fighters order for supplies needed to make a certain item, which i am capable of making..say that sword.
To the blacksmith all they see is " sword required for fighters order", and they complete the request. There would also be a failsafe after a couple of days so that an npc will complete your order should no make the sword.
this would not only apply to swords, but bridges, houses, castles, upgrades for pvp guards and anything in the game that needed creating. Think of the server more like an army if you will. They dont care about money, they want results on the battlefeild.
so in addition to player orders there would also always be npc orders for items to keep the system liquid and these items would upgrade town guards, castle guards, keep guards, pvp defences, and anything else that can be upgraded. Of course all these "tasks" require materials..
which leads me to the donation system. Since theres no money what will players do with all that treasure. Anything they dont need can be donated to the common good of the server. Each npc order will accept the types of materials required to make their specific items, and there will be other npc orders that will accept anything as a catch all. Donatins will improve your standing with whatever npc order you donating to, and this will improve the services that you can receive as a player.
no..this does not give you phat l33t likes wows faction grinds. This works by the incentive order system where the higher the standing the more incentive the other tradesman (or vice versa) is given to complete your order.
Each player will have tabs in their "book" once for each order, one for their guild and one for the server. Some orders may be merged for simplicity. This will ensure that players always have a large number of tasks they can accomplish (or ignore) if they wish to do so. No tasks is one way though. a blacksmith that completes an order for armor for the pvp keep indirectly helps the combat players to fight and pvp the opposite is also true.
Materials is key
Once you have a system of essentially player generated tasks, the core of all these tasks is essentially materials required to fuel these tasks. I like the notion that materials are more different than better..gold has its attributes (such as deflecting heat) but so does every material, so no material is technically the ultimate material. So i wouldnt have gold platemail..i would have gold platemail with bone spikes for attribute x, silver buckles for attribute y, and emeralds for attribute z.
So then materials are worth based on their effect, and not some assigned number. Gold is awesome vs fire but worthless vs ice and so on. Players may try to make their own economy with these materials as a base, and that is ok if its the players that will it. This might be different on every server though, so the goldfarming people might have a hell of a time doing their thing. Also harvesting of materials is dependant on the skill to harvest them ( bone comes from skeletons/undead...wood comes from chopping trees..). The cool thing is that more materials would be added to the game all the time and the rarity of materials would rise and fall. Today gold is hard to find and bone is not...tomorrow the opposite may be true.
Gaining new skills
i see advancing your character to utilize a similar system. Every player would simply have to find the particular skill scroll to get it going, and this could be found in a treasure chest, off a monster, could be crafted by the above system (if you have the correct ingredients) or simply learned by being repeatedly exposed to the skill.
Once you have figured out the skill it then simply becomes use based ( and we dont care how you use it, thats your business) and it progresses slowly by use from beginner to grandmaster. Other than by use, being in an order is the only way to speed up skills, and only skills belonging to an order are sped up.
once you hit grandmaster in a skill, any skill, you get the ability for skill modulation. This means that you can change the parameters of the skill, adding more of something takes away from the rest. The modulation skill also progresses from beginner to grandmaster.
You can only be in one order at a time, and the order your in slightly speeds up the learning of all skills associated with that order and gives you a small amount of points that you can use to improve skills. You can still learn everything else but it will be slower and they wont be subject to the order bonus. The order bonus is not large but it affects everything across the board that is relevent to the order.
Order has the limitation that you are slightly limited on what non order skills you canuse. If there were 10 skills to equip at any one time, 5 of these would be reserved for your order and the other five could be anything.
This system ensures that players have access to the greatest amount of content available (i.e all of it), but also very gently guides them along the basic orders (you could change orders) to ensure that it wasnt completely random.
So you might have to play a long time to completely unlock every skill and grandmaster it, and then grandmaster the modulation of it and then determine the best order and best setup of your skills...but its still just a skill, and doesnt make you inherently more powerful than anyone else..just more flexible, which i believe is the key to long term playability. The cool thing is that you dont have to get all the skills. You just go after the ones you want and improve them. Get the ones you need first, collect the others later. limitless gameplay here.
5/09/12 11:47:12 PM#2
A couple things about your economy:
I think it was Richard Garriott who said (and I'm paraphrasing here, because I can't find that article) that one player's inconvenience is another player's entire reason for playing. Allowing people to get craft requests filled all the time removes most of the reasons why anyone would craft. You lose any possibility of being well-known as a reliable crafter because the whole process is so anonymous; no one has to contact you or seek you out. There's no making a name for yourself. Also, any notion of profiting from a tradeskill is gone if A) people can expect to have any craft done immediately for free if they have the materials, and B) there's no currency anyway.
If the expectation is that players who go out and gather/loot materials will be able to effortlessly have an item made from those materials—and that seems to be the case, especially since you noted that unfilled orders will be completed by an NPC anyway—why involve crafters at all? It would be even easier to just allow everyone to put materials together, like Minecraft. If you've got silver and an emerald, you put them together and there's your Emerald Necklace. From the player's point of view, the only difference is that when they put the silver and emerald in the box, they have to wait a few minutes or hours for the necklace to pop out. There's no interaction with the human being doing the crafting, so why require a human being to do it? Just give them the item.
Crafting in most MMOs involves grinding craft levels on crap that nobody wants. Either you're doing repeatable craft quests of some kind that raise your craft skill without producing any actual items, or you're making a whole pile of some cheap item that you vendor or throw away. No matter how great the demand and no matter how few crafters there are, I don't think it's possible to have crafters who spend their whole time creating actual useful items. It's always going to be faster, cheaper, and/or more convenient to grind on crap than trying to level your craft skill solely by making and selling honest-to-God someone-is-going-to-buy-this-and-wear-it-for-twenty-levels Fine Mithril Helmets. If unwanted items (meaning nearly everything, since you can't sell items) get traded in for better faction, that's going to be the bulk of gameplay for crafters. It's not anything like a player-centric crafting economy.
OP 5/10/12 5:07:43 AM#3
Originally posted by Disdena
I havent gotten into the quality and degradability aspects of items, and the skill of the crafter would make a difference, so for some items you may need to seek out a person or have a guild crafter and such, but the baseline system is always there, and you wont require quality all the time. You wouldnt expect a baseline system (the npc) to create the ultimate quality item either. Only players would have the ability to "improve" items.
I cant figure out why people, who spend there whole life battling money in the real world, would want to see that concept in a game. Thank you for your commentary. It is much appreciated.
5/10/12 10:01:16 AM#4
Originally posted by rungard
OP 5/10/12 6:10:01 PM#5
OP 5/10/12 6:48:28 PM#6
lets discuss item quality for a few moments.
It is my view that in otder to have both a good pvp and crafting experience , that items cannot last forever. I believe Daoc did it best but i have some tweaks to the system that you might find interesting.
Every item in the world is subject to quality. Its the ultimate stat for items, whether they ae swords or bridges or catapults.
the system is pretty simply. its a 5 tier quaity system
60-69% Low Quality---70-79% standard----80-89% high quality-----90-97% exceptional quality----98%-100% Masterpeice.
the item behaves exactly according to its quality. Thus a low quality item has is only 60-69% as effective as a masterpeice damage wise, and is also only 60-69% as Durable and would be more likely to break than higher quality items . So it does less damage and breaks faster. Think of your door example again. with 50 guys out front, are you so sure you wouldnt want to have one of old rungards exceptional quality iron doors in the way?
during the crafting process, your current skill gives you the spectrum of quality and there would be gameplay mechanisms in place so that crafting would be alot like 1 vs 1 pvp. This has been done in other games, except here you get no hints when to use the skill. You have to figure it out yourself. Say were making a sword..you have to know whento heat, when to hammer, when to fold, when to cool and the game tells you nothing. You have to practice. As your skill goes up the ranges of these events widen a little, but you still have to be in the ballpark. So a higher skilled crafter might have a little easier time but it still requires player skill, just like in pvp. You could also form a crafting group to improve your odds again. Even at the highest skill, masterpeices would be difficult to produce reliably unless the player was exceptionally talented. Not by chance, by skill. There might be some subtle graphical cues, but they would be subtle. It would be nice to incorperate optional kinnect style controls for things like this so it could be done completely graphically. If the processes were semi authentic it would also be cool. There is a right way to make a sword. In the end i see crafting like a virtual workshop where you dont just press combine, you actually have to "fight" the same way a player would fight another player.
You could also improve existing items for a smaller resource cost, so you could go around improving existing items in the world and gain skill from that.
these are just for the basic items though. To make them special you need to add magic abilities to them, and its my thinking that the gem systems work best where you get slots in items that you can place enchanted materials in to improve them. The enchantments would use the same system of quality as well.
i dont see any reason why you cant enchant a door or a wall or a cannon or a bridge.
5/11/12 2:40:53 PM#7
Originally posted by rungard Profit is not a good thing really, Money makes you think it is, but the physical world shows you it is not. In a game you can have a higher standard and that standard is the greater good ( no not comunism, solialism or any other ism and no im not religous either..).. the greater good is more like an army of people working together to solve a problem. Greed doesnt need to factor in at all. Someone needs something, you make it for them. Problem solved. They get the item, you get the skill increase and your name stamped into it.
Who is your target audience then, because it certainly isn't human beings.
OP 5/11/12 3:09:34 PM#8
Originally posted by Loktofeit
actually it is human beings. Tell me. When your playing your favorite war fps, how often do you..umm.. stop into a store to buy a new machine gun? It doesnt make sense to do that.
so why then, does it make sense in a server vs server pvp game....it doesnt. If you want teamwork.... focus on the team.
If they had a game called economy online, would you play it?
5/11/12 9:15:56 PM#9
Originally posted by rungard
Your game design isn't based on how humans behave, though. People didn't suddenly get selfish and greedy when money was invented - they invented money to facilitate their greed. "Greed does not need to factor in at all," only makes sense if your target audience is some alien race that doesn't have greed as a goal or motivator. If your players are human beings, especially internet human beings, then greed will be present and the players will game your greater good mechanics to their individual benefit.
"If they had a game called economy online, would you play it?"
Not only would I play it, but I'd get a job with the company and write their monthly newsletter.
5/12/12 1:04:58 PM#10
I have to agree. You can't get rid of greed by getting rid of money. Money doesn't cause greed.
What's more, obstacles don't prevent altruism. I think maybe that's what you were trying to do by removing currency and allowing people to effortlessly craft for one another in service of their realm. If it's not hard to do something, it's not particularly nice to do it either.
If I announce that any warrior under level 20 is welcome to a free suit of my crafted plate armor, that's a very considerate and generous thing for me to do (since I could have sold that armor instead). But if the game doesn't give you any means to profit from making armor, and instead there's a button that will teleport the items into the inventory of the nearest naked noob, it's no longer a super-nice thing to do. It's the norm. It's what everyone does and is expected to do. It just barely deserves a "thanks".
When I'm playing an Engineer in Team Fortress, nobody goes out of their way to thank me for building a dispenser where they can pick up free ammo. It's my entire function as an Engineer, and it's the only thing that I can do with an ammo dispenser. It's not particularly nice of me, in the way that it would be nice of me to give out free ammo in a game where ammo is usually sold.
So if you try too hard to facilitate altruism, you end up devaluing it. There's nothing especially generous about offering your services for free when it is incredibly easy and there is no other alternative.
OP 5/12/12 4:09:23 PM#11
Originally posted by Loktofeit
So yor solution to greed and poor player behavior is to do nothing and accept it? I disagree. If you look at a game like guild wars 2, if youve played that beta.. they have put in mechanisms that limit bad behavior seen in other games like killstealing, loot stealing and other things like that. As a consequence those behaviors dissapear because they have been designed out of the game.
this is no different, except its a little grander in scale. Its clear that you have no faith in human beings, but i believe that people are generally good, but also need to be shown the way. Lots of kids play these games, my kids will probabally play these games. Designers need to reinforce good behaviors and make bad behavior inefficient. Unlike the real world, a video game can be made any way. Why emulate something that is no good if you dont have to?
OP 5/12/12 4:17:44 PM#12
Originally posted by Disdena
so why did you choose the engineer? Was it to help your team or was it something else? Do you need to be thanked for doing something that benifits others? Do people always need to be compensated in some way for doing anything that benifits others, even though they would of done it anyway for fun?
i dont think promoting good behavior devalues anything.....but poor behavior.
5/12/12 8:29:04 PM#13
Originally posted by rungard
How you got any of that from my post is beyond me, but whatever. There is a difference between reinforcing good behaviour and designing a game that doesn't take into consideration how people can and will play the game. However, you seem rather confident that you can do this, so I'll wish both you and your game good luck. This world could use another Ghandi.