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General Discussion  » !Not a Sandbox!

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62 posts found
  Stizzled

Tipster

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1081

Kill Your Heroes

5/08/12 7:22:54 PM#21
Originally posted by Xzen

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

You may as well just give up Xzen, your not going to change anyone's mind. You know that I and many others agree with you, we know that an ES MMO would never have been a sandbox. We can see that, if you take away the open character progression, TES games have always played very much like your average themepark. That's good enough, let them moan. Eventually, after actually trying the game, they'll understand that the game won't be lacking because it's not a sandbox, but because they're ripping out the features that would have made it somewhat unique in the world of themeparks.

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

5/08/12 7:23:11 PM#22
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
 

It has everything to do with being non-linear. Being able to build something or destroy something can enhance the sandbox or might be included in a sandbox, but it is not required. You are trying to take a literal definition of the sand. You need to open your mind. The sand is the world and the NPC's and you are free to choose how you play. That is what makes it a sandbox. When you play in a sandbox as a kid, there are limitless possiblities. Just like there are when you play Skyrim.  And for your information, you can create and alter the world in Skyrim through your actions.

DO you realize where the gaming term came from? Free build RTS modes....

And your point is????  Things adapt and change over time. Like I said before, you are more than welcome to have your own definition, but the rest of the world has their own notion of what a sandbox is. Don't expect the world to accept your definition.

  Xzen

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

5/08/12 7:24:25 PM#23
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Heres a good opinion of what Sandbox gameplay means

http://aggregame.com/news/2011/06/22/sandbox-game-what-does-this-mean/

But none of the games they use as an example are sandboxes. LOL

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1123

5/08/12 7:25:53 PM#24
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Heres a good opinion of what Sandbox gameplay means

http://aggregame.com/news/2011/06/22/sandbox-game-what-does-this-mean/

But none of the games they use as an example are sandboxes. LOL

yeah thats one part I didnt get. he understands the meaning, but he lists games that really dont fall into that catagory

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

5/08/12 7:26:01 PM#25
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by ShakyMo

neithers skyrim

BOTH are open world exploring based theme parks

Still trying to redefine that word i see.

Keep trying maybe someday someone you will succeed.

He's not redefining it. He's reclaiming it from the marketing people that started using it. He's also correct.

No he's not. I hate to break the news to you....

It's not news to me. I know what sandbox means. You can buy into the marketing BS if you like.

It's not marketing BS. It is another name for non linear, unrestricted game play where a player can play as he sees fit. Open world refers to an environment that is unrestricted.... not the game mechanics which would be a sandbox.

 

That's the marketing BS definition.

So now the meaning of a word is a conspiracy?

Oh mmorpg.com you never cease to amaze me...

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

It has everything to do with being non-linear. Being able to build something or destroy something can enhance the sandbox or might be included in a sandbox, but it is not required. You are trying to take a literal definition of the sand. You need to open your mind. The sand is the world and the NPC's and you are free to choose how you play. That is what makes it a sandbox. When you play in a sandbox as a kid, there are limitless possiblities. Just like there are when you play Skyrim.  And for your information, you can create and alter the world in Skyrim through your actions.

You have it backwards. Being able to build, destroy, and alter the environment are what makes a sandbox a sandbox. All the rest of the things you mention are just ways to make it even better. The skill progression and ability to kill off NPC's is not what made UO a sandbox.

Like I said before, you can't see past the literal definition of the word.

  Xzen

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

5/08/12 7:26:25 PM#26
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by Xzen

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

You may as well just give up Xzen, your not going to change anyone's mind. You know that I and many others agree with you, we know that an ES MMO would never have been a sandbox. We can see that, if you take away the open character progression, TES games have always played very much like your average themepark. That's good enough, let them moan. Eventually, after actually trying the game, they'll understand that the game won't be lacking because it's not a sandbox, but because they're ripping out the features that would have made it somewhat unique in the world of themeparks.

I know I know. But every time I see the term used incorrectly I'm going to come out and tell them to get off my lawn.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15955

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/08/12 7:27:27 PM#27
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Heres a good opinion of what Sandbox gameplay means

http://aggregame.com/news/2011/06/22/sandbox-game-what-does-this-mean/

But none of the games they use as an example are sandboxes. LOL

Yeah Fable and Zelda especially. If they're sandboxes just about every MMO that exists is.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

5/08/12 7:27:51 PM#28

Sounds like ESO will have the same flaws as SWTOR.  Developers set out to clone WoW, fail because WoW has a shit ton of content that is much better than any clone could have, and then go down in flames losing all their money.  Best thing gamers could do right now is let ESO developers know that they strongly disapprove of WoW clones and perhaps development priorities can be shifted.  I'm not really that invested in Elder Scrolls games though so am content to laugh as this one goes down in flames just like SWTOR.

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15955

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/08/12 7:29:51 PM#29
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

DO you realize where the gaming term came from? Free build RTS modes....

And your point is????  Things adapt and change over time. Like I said before, you are more than welcome to have your own definition, but the rest of the world has their own notion of what a sandbox is. Don't expect the world to accept your definition.

Things evolve and change just as much as people use labels in mysterious and often false ways.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

5/08/12 7:30:36 PM#30
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by Xzen

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

You may as well just give up Xzen, your not going to change anyone's mind. You know that I and many others agree with you, we know that an ES MMO would never have been a sandbox. We can see that, if you take away the open character progression, TES games have always played very much like your average themepark. That's good enough, let them moan. Eventually, after actually trying the game, they'll understand that the game won't be lacking because it's not a sandbox, but because they're ripping out the features that would have made it somewhat unique in the world of themeparks.

I know I know. But every time I see the term used incorrectly I'm going to come out and tell them to get off my lawn.

Unfortunately you are not on your lawn. You are the one using the term incorrectly or at least can't grasp the idea behind the concept properly. Feel free to come tell us the way it is.

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

5/08/12 7:33:47 PM#31
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

DO you realize where the gaming term came from? Free build RTS modes....

And your point is????  Things adapt and change over time. Like I said before, you are more than welcome to have your own definition, but the rest of the world has their own notion of what a sandbox is. Don't expect the world to accept your definition.

Things evolve and change just as much as people use labels in mysterious and often false ways.

Nobody is using it in a strange and mysterious way. It is an accepted definition. There is no giant conspiracy. It is a term that has come to represent a certain style of game mechanics. Google it. You can see for yourself. It doesn't really matter what you want the term to mean. It is what is accepted by society as a representation of that type of game play. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. When one states that a game is a sandbox, most sane people assume you are referring to nonlinear game play where a player can play the game as they see fit.

  Xzen

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

5/08/12 7:35:27 PM#32
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by Xzen

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

You may as well just give up Xzen, your not going to change anyone's mind. You know that I and many others agree with you, we know that an ES MMO would never have been a sandbox. We can see that, if you take away the open character progression, TES games have always played very much like your average themepark. That's good enough, let them moan. Eventually, after actually trying the game, they'll understand that the game won't be lacking because it's not a sandbox, but because they're ripping out the features that would have made it somewhat unique in the world of themeparks.

I know I know. But every time I see the term used incorrectly I'm going to come out and tell them to get off my lawn.

Unfortunately you are not on your lawn. You are the one using the term incorrectly or at least can't grasp the idea behind the concept properly. Feel free to come tell us the way it is.

I'm using it the way it was used before the marketing guys started using it as I have already stated. I'm well within my right to deny the new use of the term just as you and the marketing guys are within your right to try and hijack it. All is fair. =)

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

5/08/12 7:38:35 PM#33
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by Xzen

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

You may as well just give up Xzen, your not going to change anyone's mind. You know that I and many others agree with you, we know that an ES MMO would never have been a sandbox. We can see that, if you take away the open character progression, TES games have always played very much like your average themepark. That's good enough, let them moan. Eventually, after actually trying the game, they'll understand that the game won't be lacking because it's not a sandbox, but because they're ripping out the features that would have made it somewhat unique in the world of themeparks.

I know I know. But every time I see the term used incorrectly I'm going to come out and tell them to get off my lawn.

Unfortunately you are not on your lawn. You are the one using the term incorrectly or at least can't grasp the idea behind the concept properly. Feel free to come tell us the way it is.

I'm using it the way it was used before the marketing guys started using it as I have already stated. I'm well within my right to deny the new use of the term just as you and the marketing guys are within your right to try and hijack it. All is fair. =)

Ummm it isn't a new way of using the term. They have been using this term this way for more than a decade. If you think they are trying to hijack it then you wrong....they already did and it was already become synomynous with non-linear, open ended gameplay. But good luck with that.... I wish you the best.

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

5/08/12 7:40:55 PM#34
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by Xzen

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

You may as well just give up Xzen, your not going to change anyone's mind. You know that I and many others agree with you, we know that an ES MMO would never have been a sandbox. We can see that, if you take away the open character progression, TES games have always played very much like your average themepark. That's good enough, let them moan. Eventually, after actually trying the game, they'll understand that the game won't be lacking because it's not a sandbox, but because they're ripping out the features that would have made it somewhat unique in the world of themeparks.

I know I know. But every time I see the term used incorrectly I'm going to come out and tell them to get off my lawn.

Unfortunately you are not on your lawn. You are the one using the term incorrectly or at least can't grasp the idea behind the concept properly. Feel free to come tell us the way it is.

I'm using it the way it was used before the marketing guys started using it as I have already stated. I'm well within my right to deny the new use of the term just as you and the marketing guys are within your right to try and hijack it. All is fair. =)

Besides... I am always up for some forum PVP while I wait for something worthwhile to come out that I can play.

  Xzen

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

5/08/12 7:42:03 PM#35
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by Xzen

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

You may as well just give up Xzen, your not going to change anyone's mind. You know that I and many others agree with you, we know that an ES MMO would never have been a sandbox. We can see that, if you take away the open character progression, TES games have always played very much like your average themepark. That's good enough, let them moan. Eventually, after actually trying the game, they'll understand that the game won't be lacking because it's not a sandbox, but because they're ripping out the features that would have made it somewhat unique in the world of themeparks.

I know I know. But every time I see the term used incorrectly I'm going to come out and tell them to get off my lawn.

Unfortunately you are not on your lawn. You are the one using the term incorrectly or at least can't grasp the idea behind the concept properly. Feel free to come tell us the way it is.

I'm using it the way it was used before the marketing guys started using it as I have already stated. I'm well within my right to deny the new use of the term just as you and the marketing guys are within your right to try and hijack it. All is fair. =)

Ummm it isn't a new way of using the term. They have been using this term this way for more than a decade. If you think they are trying to hijack it then you wrong....they already did and it was already become synomynous with non-linear, open ended gameplay. But good luck with that.... I wish you the best.

I and many other people have been using it for more than a decade as well. Obviously some people tried to change the meaning from when we first started using it.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15955

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/08/12 7:43:55 PM#36
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
 

Nobody is using it in a strange and mysterious way. It is an accepted definition. There is no giant conspiracy. It is a term that has come to represent a certain style of game mechanics. Google it. You can see for yourself. It doesn't really matter what you want the term to mean. It is what is accepted by society as a representation of that type of game play. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. When one states that a game is a sandbox, most sane people assume you are referring to nonlinear game play where a player can play the game as they see fit.

 It's a strange and mysterious way to me. As you don't jump into a sandbox to do anything other than manipulate the sand in any way you want. It doesn't describe the experience that is, most themeparks today allow you to play as you see fit as well, be it walking around finding secret areas/items, PVPing for your progression, questing for your progression, mob grinding for your progression, running dungeons, you're not forced to do any one thing in these games, you have free reign to do which ever activity you enjoy. Why are they not considered sandboxes under this "accepted definition"?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Serelisk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

5/08/12 7:46:17 PM#37

My understanding of the term is that the content of the game is driven inextricably by the actions of the players and their direct impact on the game world.

For example, in a sandbox: if player group A builds a castle near resources that developers created and are desirable in a player run economy, and player group B wants the resources that group A has claimed, then group B will launch a siege to eliminate the enemy faction so they can harvest the resources. The only thing that the developers created was the lands they're fighting on, the resources they're fighting over, and the tools players used build the castle and siege weapons.

In a themepark, player group A wants resources that are generally independent of the game economy, tied to some currency that exchanges with NPC's for armor and other loot, and is locked away inside of a developer created castle. The only player interaction and impact of other players is if the castle is open world and seperate factions battle eachother over these resources. In very notable themepark games, those resources are locked behind an instance so player interaction is minimal and there's no change to the game environment. The majority of the above was developer created and an intended part of the game.

These aren't tied to any game in particular, this is just how I understand the difference between the two types of games. Themeparks are predominantly developer created, giving players an entertaining but, often, static and controlled experience. Whereas Sandbox games are more "dynamic" in the sense that the events that happen in the game are the results of a series of player actions that are entirely the at the whim of how the players decide to interact with the game world.

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

5/08/12 9:08:08 PM#38
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by Xzen

The only thing required to be a sandbox is the use of ones imagination and the ability to create or alter the game world as part of the game's mechanics. It has nothing to do with being non-linear, skill progression, or Full loot PvP. All those things lend themselves well to a sandbox but do not make a sandbox what it is.

You may as well just give up Xzen, your not going to change anyone's mind. You know that I and many others agree with you, we know that an ES MMO would never have been a sandbox. We can see that, if you take away the open character progression, TES games have always played very much like your average themepark. That's good enough, let them moan. Eventually, after actually trying the game, they'll understand that the game won't be lacking because it's not a sandbox, but because they're ripping out the features that would have made it somewhat unique in the world of themeparks.

I know I know. But every time I see the term used incorrectly I'm going to come out and tell them to get off my lawn.

Unfortunately you are not on your lawn. You are the one using the term incorrectly or at least can't grasp the idea behind the concept properly. Feel free to come tell us the way it is.

I'm using it the way it was used before the marketing guys started using it as I have already stated. I'm well within my right to deny the new use of the term just as you and the marketing guys are within your right to try and hijack it. All is fair. =)

Ummm it isn't a new way of using the term. They have been using this term this way for more than a decade. If you think they are trying to hijack it then you wrong....they already did and it was already become synomynous with non-linear, open ended gameplay. But good luck with that.... I wish you the best.

I and many other people have been using it for more than a decade as well. Obviously some people tried to change the meaning from when we first started using it.

Regardless of the way you seem to want to use the word, the majority of the world uses it in a different manner. Like I said, GOOGLE IT! See how many people you can find that agree or accept your definition. I highly doubt that you were one of the first to use that word to describe a type of game....and regardless, things evolve. It isn't a marketing, hype term. It simply describes a type of gameplay mechanics.  

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

5/08/12 9:09:56 PM#39
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
 

It has everything to do with being non-linear. Being able to build something or destroy something can enhance the sandbox or might be included in a sandbox, but it is not required. You are trying to take a literal definition of the sand. You need to open your mind. The sand is the world and the NPC's and you are free to choose how you play. That is what makes it a sandbox. When you play in a sandbox as a kid, there are limitless possiblities. Just like there are when you play Skyrim.  And for your information, you can create and alter the world in Skyrim through your actions.

DO you realize where the gaming term came from? Free build RTS modes....

Show me a case where it was used in that manner. I can show you where it is used in the way I describe.

  Vaultar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 342

5/08/12 9:13:07 PM#40

meh...expect for more disappointments to come.

Looking forward to EQL and EQN.

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