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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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214 posts found
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 16905

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/06/12 5:21:40 PM#41
Originally posted by maskedweasel

The key though is making a game not creating or advancing technology. Sure FPS combat could be done, it's in Darkfall, but many would argue (myself included) part of what makes Darkfall feel third rate is it's combat and how it doesn't feel fluid. Same with Fallen Earth, or countless other titles that have used it in a massively scaled game.

Creating and advancing technology, is fine and all, but there's no telling how long and how much it would cost a dev team to do it and get it "right".

 

I felt games like Phantasy Star Online did it pretty well.. and while Fallen Earth was a little clunky, it, in my opinion, was much better than Darkfall.  

 

TERA has a decent system,  even Tabula Rasa was a step in the right direction.  FPS and TPS style MMOs seem to have the right idea.... Firefall, for one,  has a pretty fluid system.. the controls seem a little TOO tight,  but it feels good to me.

 

Keep in mind, we're talking companies that have half the resources as Zenimax here.  This is, in every way, the problem.

 

The resources are so great, that the costs undoubtedly are great,  in such a manner that instead of going with a "gamble" they want to go with a sure thing,  thats why this is, what it is.  Its disappointing, but when it came to the online game,  I feel they lost their way.

I actually think it's less about going with a sure thing, and more about spending all available time on making the entirety of the game. Rather than conceptualizing and reiterating one feature. I'm not really going to go into the area of resources, as who knows what budget and time they are given on the title outside of the development team and their handlers?

As far as MMO combat systems go, there are few examples of well done combat across the board, be it FPS, hybrid or turn-based. Many seem to forget or just outright ignore that many cases of active combat is really all some of these titles they're talking about have to offer. The reality tends to usually be medicore whole, with a gimmick like a "new combat system". I wonder why that is?

 

 

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  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

5/06/12 5:31:08 PM#42
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by maskedweasel

The key though is making a game not creating or advancing technology. Sure FPS combat could be done, it's in Darkfall, but many would argue (myself included) part of what makes Darkfall feel third rate is it's combat and how it doesn't feel fluid. Same with Fallen Earth, or countless other titles that have used it in a massively scaled game.

Creating and advancing technology, is fine and all, but there's no telling how long and how much it would cost a dev team to do it and get it "right".

 

I felt games like Phantasy Star Online did it pretty well.. and while Fallen Earth was a little clunky, it, in my opinion, was much better than Darkfall.  

 

TERA has a decent system,  even Tabula Rasa was a step in the right direction.  FPS and TPS style MMOs seem to have the right idea.... Firefall, for one,  has a pretty fluid system.. the controls seem a little TOO tight,  but it feels good to me.

 

Keep in mind, we're talking companies that have half the resources as Zenimax here.  This is, in every way, the problem.

 

The resources are so great, that the costs undoubtedly are great,  in such a manner that instead of going with a "gamble" they want to go with a sure thing,  thats why this is, what it is.  Its disappointing, but when it came to the online game,  I feel they lost their way.

I actually think it's less about going with a sure thing, and more about spending all available time on making the entirety of the game. Rather than conceptualizing and reiterating one feature. I'm not really going to go into the area of resources, as who knows what budget and time they are given on the title outside of the development team and their handlers?

As far as MMO combat systems go, there are few examples of well done combat across the board, be it FPS, hybrid or turn-based. Many seem to forget or just outright ignore that many cases of active combat is really all some of these titles they're talking about have to offer. The reality tends to usually be medicore whole, with a gimmick like a "new combat system". I wonder why that is?

 

 

it's not a new combat system it's an elder scrolls combat system, something they have been refining for years. They are going with standard mmo combat because they want to appeal to the masses and make lots of money.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7370

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

5/06/12 5:31:22 PM#43
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by maskedweasel
 

I actually think it's less about going with a sure thing, and more about spending all available time on making the entirety of the game. Rather than conceptualizing and reiterating one feature. I'm not really going to go into the area of resources, as who knows what budget and time they are given on the title outside of the development team and their handlers?

As far as MMO combat systems go, there are few examples of well done combat across the board, be it FPS, hybrid or turn-based. Many seem to forget or just outright ignore that many cases of active combat is really all some of these titles they're talking about have to offer. The reality tends to usually be medicore whole, with a gimmick like a "new combat system". I wonder why that is?

 

 

 

I think in some cases you're right,  but I think its due to the mindset of the player today.  If they come from WoW, they are looking for everything WoW had, plus some.  Its a tough anomaly to recreate in any aspect.  If they do a little with a new combat system,  its not enough.  If they don't have millions of others playing,  its not worth playing at all.

 

I think with games like TERA they tout the combat system a little too much, where, in my opinion, DCUO had an amazing combat system in the bag,  with a lot of interesting story lines, and some great voice work... but I think they are shooting for the moon too often here and aren't okay with just landing in the stars.  

 

I'm mostly positive about upcoming MMOs... and I'm not saying TESO is going to be a bad game at all,  its just disappointing because it isn't what people think of when thinking of TES.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 8133

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

5/06/12 5:38:28 PM#44

Why wouldn't it work,there has ONLY been one mmorpg ever made around not soloing.Single player game=soloing so it is actually of the norm not something wild and crazy.

Even combat is about soloing your weapon skills and healing yourself,so yes it most definitely would work based on  the demographic of current mmorpg gamers.

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  deathshroud

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 1399

5/06/12 6:11:30 PM#45
Originally posted by caremuchless

 I'll make this short.

 

 I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

 But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

 

So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

 I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

 

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01p4M-SKB_g

 

not possible eh?? and MO's melee system is way more advanced than skyrims

there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  tatbounty

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/22/06
Posts: 14

osama got obama'd

5/06/12 6:13:36 PM#46

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

i don't know jack..but i know his sister :)

  deathshroud

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 1399

5/06/12 6:16:33 PM#47
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

 well elder scrolls has been typically fps and tpv, but this game should of been for TES fans, so if you havent palyed TES or you dont like TES this game shouldnt of been aimed at you in the first palce.

there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

5/06/12 6:16:44 PM#48
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/06/12 6:18:49 PM#49
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

So what's your stance on traditional TES games? They were originally FPS, you know...

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  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 18395

5/06/12 6:21:41 PM#50
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

I think in some cases you're right,  but I think its due to the mindset of the player today.  If they come from WoW, they are looking for everything WoW had, plus some.

Pretty much this.

  greyed-out

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/12
Posts: 99

5/06/12 6:30:14 PM#51
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

  SlyGamer79

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/24/09
Posts: 264

5/06/12 6:33:22 PM#52

with this TESO aren't you just getting another EQ type game with TES lore and stuff ? i don't know if there will be much of a difference you could just be looking at exactly that another EQ.

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  Sinaku

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 482

5/06/12 6:34:28 PM#53

Every TES is on computer first and console second IMO. I feel like the transition of combat would be perfectly fine to follow the same structures they have been using. It is possible. Mortal Online and Darkfall are both indie games with this same type of combat (be it not exactly the same just an example). TESO has enough resources to make what everyone expected a reality. I won't give any excuses to this MMO for it not being what everyone as dreamed about.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/06/12 6:36:02 PM#54
Originally posted by greyed-out
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

Then it's usage becomes situational, besides, most people just use the TP-perspective for vanity reasons.

If they had stuck to convention, we could expect the handy-dandy compass to relay hostile targets long before they actually get a jump on anyone. It works AS IS.

~Also, have you tried to fight in TP? The accuracy of FP trumps the situational awareness of TP in almost every circumstance, but it's still useful to have BOTH.

 

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  greyed-out

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/12
Posts: 99

5/06/12 6:36:25 PM#55

Morrowind didn't really have action combat.  Things like blocking and hit were determined by dice rolls, and it was frustrating at times to watch you land blow after blow (graphically) but have the rolls fail.

Oblivion removed those hit rolls, which IMO was an improvement, but did generate a fair amount of nerdrage at the time.  And Skyrim ofc is a further refinement of the system, which while good is still not great.

TESO could have and should have done so much more to refine the combat path ES has been on.  There have been plenty of games now which prove action-combat to a good degree can work.  Although the decision not to was no doubt made during the design phase, the engine they chose couldn't support it even if they wanted to now.

  greyed-out

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/12
Posts: 99

5/06/12 6:42:35 PM#56
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by greyed-out
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

Then it's usage becomes situational, besides, most people just use the TP-perspective for vanity reasons.

If they had stuck to convention, we could expect the handy-dandy compass to relay hostile targets long before they actually get a jump on anyone. It works AS IS.

~Also, have you tried to fight in TP? The accuracy of FP trumps the situational awareness of TP in almost every circumstance, but it's still useful to have BOTH.

 

Which is pretty much always in that case.  The point being that player-A using FP pvp'ing against player-B using TS will always be at a disadvantage.  At least that is the argument, and I think it makes sense.  WoW has a FP view, but I know of no one who uses it for any real gameplay, although its certainly not impossible.

In fact, TESO will most likely have a FP view mode too, but since TP is available (and the game mechanics designed around having it) I doubt it will be used much.  Personally I'd love to play ES in FP-mode, but the masses will likely complain.

  tatbounty

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/22/06
Posts: 14

osama got obama'd

5/06/12 6:43:41 PM#57
Originally posted by greyed-out
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

 

well..this pretty much is my feeling...don't get me wrong..i don't enjoy fps in any game..but in a single player game i can understand it to a point..u don't have other human users (pvp) to be aware of..as far as opinion on elder scrolls game sin particular i can't have one..they were not mmo's or multiplayer combat games so i wasn't interested..but this is to be an mmo with pvp..thus i'd want tps or at worst the option between fps or tps

it's why socom series was one of the games i enjoyed compared to these other fps that have been all over consoles

i don't know jack..but i know his sister :)

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/06/12 6:56:55 PM#58
Originally posted by greyed-out
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by greyed-out
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

Then it's usage becomes situational, besides, most people just use the TP-perspective for vanity reasons.

If they had stuck to convention, we could expect the handy-dandy compass to relay hostile targets long before they actually get a jump on anyone. It works AS IS.

~Also, have you tried to fight in TP? The accuracy of FP trumps the situational awareness of TP in almost every circumstance, but it's still useful to have BOTH.

 

Which is pretty much always in that case.  The point being that player-A using FP pvp'ing against player-B using TS will always be at a disadvantage.  At least that is the argument, and I think it makes sense.  WoW has a FP view, but I know of no one who uses it for any real gameplay, although its certainly not impossible.

In fact, TESO will most likely have a FP view mode too, but since TP is available (and the game mechanics designed around having it) I doubt it will be used much.  Personally I'd love to play ES in FP-mode, but the masses will likely complain.

It would be the other way around.

Unless Player B (in TP) has the JUMP on Player A, Player A will smoke him because of the accuracy that being in FP gives. TP only has a use in facing multiple targets, in order to note their locations all at once, but controls in FP are much more accurate. There is a time and place for both, and picking one over the other ENTIRELY = "you're doing it wrong"... and it would show - and HAS shown already, in the single-player games.

Human targets just means harder targets, and sticking with a single viewpoint for all occasions is going to be STUPID on anyone's behalf.

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  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 16905

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/06/12 7:03:30 PM#59
Originally posted by Istavaan

it's not a new combat system it's an elder scrolls combat system, something they have been refining for years. They are going with standard mmo combat because they want to appeal to the masses and make lots of money.

As far as online tech goes, yes it is in a sense. I mean if you're wanting combat exactly like it is in TES. Even then in order to have a AAA version of say darkfalls combat there's a lot of ground to cover, and they didn't choose to traverse it. For whatever reason that makes it hard, or unapproachable by most dev teams. Like I said earlier I don't think it's matter of going with what's easy ( for the sake of ease) as much as it is going with what's easy in order to focus on the whole of the game rather than one feature. Maybe I'm wrong, I can live with that, but who knows really?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/06/12 7:07:35 PM#60
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Istavaan

it's not a new combat system it's an elder scrolls combat system, something they have been refining for years. They are going with standard mmo combat because they want to appeal to the masses and make lots of money.

As far as online tech goes, yes it is in a sense. I mean if you're wanting combat exactly like it is in TES. Even then in order to have a AAA version of say darkfalls combat there's a lot of ground to cover, and they didn't choose to traverse it. For whatever reason that makes it hard, or unapproachable by most dev teams. ANd like I said earlier I don't think it's matter of going with what's easy ( for the sake of ease) as much as it is going with what's easy in order to focus on the whole of the game rather than one feature. Maybe I'm wrong, I can live with that, but who knows really?

Are people really going to overlook that this is the exact same MMO gameplay we've been used to for the last 12 years, just because it has the TES name slapped on it?

There have been enough claims by analysts to state that the genre is in the state it's in BECAUSE of recycling the same shit over and over again. TESO may sell a million copies, but so did WAR and AoC. I really do think this is just a cash-grab, at the expense of stupid or oblivious people.

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