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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » why not try forced grouping? Or a mmorpg that focuses more in grouping than soloing

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  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4720

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/12 12:49:42 PM#161
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Every MMO I've ever played has been like that.  VG, CoH, EQ, WoW, SwTor, Ryzom...  Travel in them had no real gameplay, it was always just about getting from A to B with very very little happening inbetween.  So yes I would say those are typical MMO's, and in typical MMO's travel has no or very little gameplay value, it is just waiting to play the game.

Travel is a part of the game, so you're not waiting to play the game, you're waiting to get into the action. If people have a problem with that then I don't know what to say, to me that's just ridiculous. Take out all the cutscenes from Bioware games because that's just 'waiting to play the game', take the other player out of chess because waiting for his turn to finish is just 'waiting to play the game', remove the environments from Fallout because walking through them is 'waiting to play the game'. I could go on.

The walking, riding, whooshing along on a jetski, in games is to set an atmosphere, to create the illusion of a large scale environment, to immerse you in the game world. It sounds to me that the people having trouble with walking around really just want a lobby game, where they log in, pick a map then dive in and start bashing stuff. That's never been what MMO's are about and the moment they go that way I'll be leaving the genre forever.

 It isn't though.  Not to me. Travel is boring, it's non gameplay.  Nothing exciting every happens there is no challenge, no depth, nothing interesting.  It is just waiting.  To me it's rediculout that to do something as dull as travel.

In chess we often do limit the time for the other perons actions.  The cutscenes in most games I find interesting for a short while, then it just gets annoying.  Spacebar through all that stuff because it is again just waiting. 

If travel had things happening, dynamic events, unexpected events, something engaging than it would be part of the game.  As it is, it is not, it is waiting to get back to the game. 

Whether it's lobby or an MMO doesn't matter to me.  I want interesting gameplay, challenge, decisions puzzles.  None of that happens in travel. 

Travel on a jetski, horse, flight is fun the first time.  Not the 700th - again nothing interesting is happening.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

5/09/12 12:53:33 PM#162
Originally posted by nomatics856

These "solo" mmorpgs today are failing hard, and are nothing more but online action games than any thing else, a company needs to try something different by focusing more on grouping and less on soloing, not getting rid of soloing all together, but maybe go the EQ route were there are more benefits to grouping than soloing.

 

mmorpgs today if you solo, you get more exp per mobs, no fighting over loot, a faster way to level, if you group up, there is a exp shared pentaty, fighting over loot, etc etc.

 

I dont like how mmorpgs are going these days, in SWTOR I can take on 6-7 mobs and kill almost everything in one to two hits, and really its not even SWTOR fault, its how most mmorpgs are today, how is that fun? This is how these "mmorpgs" of today are becoming boring. Trying to balance soloing and grouping in one game is proving too difficult for these companys today. One side will cry nerf, one side will cry buff. Generally the solo crowd wins and the mobs become easier.

What we need is a mmorpg whos focus is on grouping seeing as its an "RPG" and "Online". Did companys seem to forget that RPGS were almost always about partying even in single player rpgs.  So what we need is a mmorpg that focuses on grouping but gives soloing options, like a couple classes that excel at soloing, like EQ did with the beastlord and necromancer.


The best way to fix that is to mix difficult and easy mobs. Perhaps you can single pull and kill normal mobs solo. But if you get adds you will need a group. If a mini boss spawns you also need a group.

With good zone design and a proper mob-mix there is no need to force grouping. A good MMORPG should give you a lot of freedom. Freedom to figure out how to kill things. To find the right tactics and how to play your character. Sometimes you need groups and sometimes only the better players can figure out how to deal with the mobs solo. If you find the right spot soloing can sometimes also be easy.

There should be no solo or group mobs and no solo and group areas. Its really up to the player to adapt. And to find a group when its impossible to solo. But it should be very random and unpredictable.

In open world games with a strong focus on exploring this is the normal and best way to do it. Spawns should be random and mobs should be roaming... Perhaps you can solo a specific area or zone. But if you are unlucky with the spawns and if the wrong sort of mobs start to roam it can suddenly become impossible.

  dave6660

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2320

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

5/09/12 1:03:32 PM#163
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by Axehilt

Most people understand that traveling somewhere in a typical MMORPG (not counting fast travel) is extremely shallow whereas dungeons require considerably more mastery to perform (due to many more game mechanics being involved.)  Run a dungeon the second time and you almost certainly have learning left to do.  Travel a second time and there's really nothing left to learn.

If you want to pretend that's not the case, you're free to do so, but you're just plugging your ears.

Most people understand that a silencer completely silences a firearm...

I am not pretending anything, it is you who requires a specific environment, a "typical mmo" (which not even wow or rift fit properly), just to make you point work.

Flame on!

:)

 

 Every MMO I've ever played has been like that.  VG, CoH, EQ, WoW, SwTor, Ryzom...  Travel in them had no real gameplay, it was always just about getting from A to B with very very little happening inbetween.  So yes I would say those are typical MMO's, and in typical MMO's travel has no or very little gameplay value, it is just waiting to play the game.

Travel does not have to be that way.  To make travel more interesting there has to be danger involved or even a chance of getting lost.  Players don't want either of those things, they have gone soft and are spoiled.  All they want is to get from point A to B safe and sound.

Matters are made worse now that many games offer instant travel.  Dangerous areas are made a moot point.  Getting lost is impossible with radar and magic.

Take a game like Eve where logistics are very important and trading is a lucrative profession.  Traveling in low sec and null sec keeps you on your toes.  Many players make the mistake of setting the autopilot and going AFK.  It usually doesn't turn out well for them.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Darkfalz89

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/08
Posts: 240

Death Is a Priveledge

5/09/12 1:12:51 PM#164
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Every MMO I've ever played has been like that.  VG, CoH, EQ, WoW, SwTor, Ryzom...  Travel in them had no real gameplay, it was always just about getting from A to B with very very little happening inbetween.  So yes I would say those are typical MMO's, and in typical MMO's travel has no or very little gameplay value, it is just waiting to play the game.

Travel is a part of the game, so you're not waiting to play the game, you're waiting to get into the action. If people have a problem with that then I don't know what to say, to me that's just ridiculous. Take out all the cutscenes from Bioware games because that's just 'waiting to play the game', take the other player out of chess because waiting for his turn to finish is just 'waiting to play the game', remove the environments from Fallout because walking through them is 'waiting to play the game'. I could go on.

The walking, riding, whooshing along on a jetski, in games is to set an atmosphere, to create the illusion of a large scale environment, to immerse you in the game world. It sounds to me that the people having trouble with walking around really just want a lobby game, where they log in, pick a map then dive in and start bashing stuff. That's never been what MMO's are about and the moment they go that way I'll be leaving the genre forever.

 

Give this man a fudging reward, 100% this. FFXI was one of the first mmos I seriously got into to this day I have yet to find a post wow mmo that can even stand in its shadow. Just like the few posts above, I too waited hours for a party then I got smart and made my own. The forced grouping strengthened player to player relations. I played the game casually so unlik others I utilized my time and used the games social feature. Thanks to this I became more social, added players I enjoyed partying with and we would share our playtimes and group together and never did I have to wait for parties again. MMOs then were about the journey rather than how fast you got there and where a friends list meant something. In the post wow market is just running in a straight line the fastest you can to the extent of falling flat on your face to the finish line (the games cap and supposed "endgame") so you can do raids....

 

We can talk a about the golden days forever, but it won't change the act times have changed. We are in a different market, which is why we an always place trust into companies like arenanet that axe the old and new systems and crate a new hybrid and create a fun experience for all types of players.

 

On another note I've been enjoying Tera quite exclusively. The combat is definitely fresh and brings a whole new level of gameplay. To those that disagree, you probably never got past 20 and tried basilisks. Questing is unfortunately more bland than wow which creates the "action combat with nothing else new" comment. For this reason I just love fighting bams, but players don't fathom grouping other than instances.... The reason Is plain and simple: questing is not only faster, but gives more exp than bam hunting. You get a 70k a quest and you do a bam quest and get 45k, which are much more difficult and require more players... I get into a bam group and have a fun time and then everyone leaves because they got their two kills for the quest and they need to go back to bashing their head against a wall (questing in Tera) which just astounds me. You have these awesome bosses with their own mechanics and animations all over the place just sitting there. Which is sad because for the effort you put in they don't nearly give as much exp and you get cut exp for every member...really?

 

Despite its flaws I managed to make bam fighting efficient, farming instances 2-3 man to sell drops so I can +6 my weapon as warrior and run full boss weapon/crystals and duo bams with my priest friend and have made it efficient. At 8 min a mob it's slightly under what you make questing but learning a mobs moves, making less mistakes so my friend can do more dps an heal less we made it 4 min which beat out questing. All of this is bound to how well you play which alone makes this game much more fun. We can do all of this while having fun killing difficult mobs and take in exp. Make your own fun and enjoy the journey while all the the 60's sit there with a thumb up their bum with nothing to do complain.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4720

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/12 1:16:12 PM#165
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by Axehilt

Most people understand that traveling somewhere in a typical MMORPG (not counting fast travel) is extremely shallow whereas dungeons require considerably more mastery to perform (due to many more game mechanics being involved.)  Run a dungeon the second time and you almost certainly have learning left to do.  Travel a second time and there's really nothing left to learn.

If you want to pretend that's not the case, you're free to do so, but you're just plugging your ears.

Most people understand that a silencer completely silences a firearm...

I am not pretending anything, it is you who requires a specific environment, a "typical mmo" (which not even wow or rift fit properly), just to make you point work.

Flame on!

:)

 

 Every MMO I've ever played has been like that.  VG, CoH, EQ, WoW, SwTor, Ryzom...  Travel in them had no real gameplay, it was always just about getting from A to B with very very little happening inbetween.  So yes I would say those are typical MMO's, and in typical MMO's travel has no or very little gameplay value, it is just waiting to play the game.

Travel does not have to be that way.  To make travel more interesting there has to be danger involved or even a chance of getting lost.  Players don't want either of those things, they have gone soft and are spoiled.  All they want is to get from point A to B safe and sound.

Matters are made worse now that many games offer instant travel.  Dangerous areas are made a moot point.  Getting lost is impossible with radar and magic.

Take a game like Eve where logistics are very important and trading is a lucrative profession.  Traveling in low sec and null sec keeps you on your toes.  Many players make the mistake of setting the autopilot and going AFK.  It usually doesn't turn out well for them.

 In general I agree Travel doesn't have to be that way, however it currently is.  I think players do want danger and exploration - they have not gotten soft, games have never given it, so players get to the parts of the game that are interesting.  Instant travel didn't make it worse, it made it better by letting players get to the fun parts of the game.  The devs just got lazy, they should have made travel better, however they didn't make it better, they just ignored it as a feature and gave players a way to get past it.

In eve the planning of travel is important, however the actual travel is often afk - not interesting, not gameplay.

Until travel becomes intersting I'll take instant travel every time. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Vannor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2983

5/09/12 1:21:09 PM#166

I strongly believe that if FFXI was more solo friendly from the start then WoW would never have become the number 1 mmorpg.

That alone is enough reason for me to justify why group only games are not seen often.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

5/09/12 2:35:52 PM#167
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Every MMO I've ever played has been like that.  VG, CoH, EQ, WoW, SwTor, Ryzom...  Travel in them had no real gameplay, it was always just about getting from A to B with very very little happening inbetween.  So yes I would say those are typical MMO's, and in typical MMO's travel has no or very little gameplay value, it is just waiting to play the game.

My point was not that a "typical mmo" hasnt shallow travel :)

Anyway, i agree with your later post.

Flame on!

:)

  HDwarehelp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/12
Posts: 9

5/09/12 2:40:46 PM#168
Originally posted by SoulOfRaziel

the answer is freedom.... force players to something will result only in fail... players want freedom to play the way they like

Why are there themparks then?They all force you to play their way,you barely have any freedom.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

5/09/12 2:50:22 PM#169
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 It isn't though.  Not to me. Travel is boring, it's non gameplay.  Nothing exciting every happens there is no challenge, no depth, nothing interesting.  It is just waiting.  To me it's rediculout that to do something as dull as travel.

In chess we often do limit the time for the other perons actions.  The cutscenes in most games I find interesting for a short while, then it just gets annoying.  Spacebar through all that stuff because it is again just waiting. 

If travel had things happening, dynamic events, unexpected events, something engaging than it would be part of the game.  As it is, it is not, it is waiting to get back to the game. 

Whether it's lobby or an MMO doesn't matter to me.  I want interesting gameplay, challenge, decisions puzzles.  None of that happens in travel. 

Travel on a jetski, horse, flight is fun the first time.  Not the 700th - again nothing interesting is happening.

It isn't though. Not to me. Travel is exciting. It's a break from gameplay. Lots of exciting things can be stumbled upon, easter eggs, a great placement of scenery, the sun hitting the enviorment the right way. Its just thrilling. To me it's rediculout that to do something as monotonous as the same gameplay over and over without breaking it up with actually stopping to look at the world created for you is crazy.

In an example that does not apply, I am going to try to prove my point. As it is, it is not.

Whether it's lobby or an MMO doesnt matter to me. I want a game thats going to provide a great many different types of things to do...and that includes things that players that are not like me will enjoy. Because I am not every gamer...and I know not everyone likes what I like.

So in the end, im going to contradict myself and ask to limit my gameplay because apparently the thing I am arguing against is the only thing that becomes uninteresting the 700th time doing it.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4720

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/12 3:19:12 PM#170
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 It isn't though.  Not to me. Travel is boring, it's non gameplay.  Nothing exciting every happens there is no challenge, no depth, nothing interesting.  It is just waiting.  To me it's rediculout that to do something as dull as travel.

In chess we often do limit the time for the other perons actions.  The cutscenes in most games I find interesting for a short while, then it just gets annoying.  Spacebar through all that stuff because it is again just waiting. 

If travel had things happening, dynamic events, unexpected events, something engaging than it would be part of the game.  As it is, it is not, it is waiting to get back to the game. 

Whether it's lobby or an MMO doesn't matter to me.  I want interesting gameplay, challenge, decisions puzzles.  None of that happens in travel. 

Travel on a jetski, horse, flight is fun the first time.  Not the 700th - again nothing interesting is happening.

It isn't though. Not to me. Travel is exciting. It's a break from gameplay. Lots of exciting things can be stumbled upon, easter eggs, a great placement of scenery, the sun hitting the enviorment the right way. Its just thrilling. To me it's rediculout that to do something as monotonous as the same gameplay over and over without breaking it up with actually stopping to look at the world created for you is crazy.

In an example that does not apply, I am going to try to prove my point. As it is, it is not.

Whether it's lobby or an MMO doesnt matter to me. I want a game thats going to provide a great many different types of things to do...and that includes things that players that are not like me will enjoy. Because I am not every gamer...and I know not everyone likes what I like.

So in the end, im going to contradict myself and ask to limit my gameplay because apparently the thing I am arguing against is the only thing that becomes uninteresting the 700th time doing it.

 Again no real issues with that.  The first time for me it was exciting.  But I've seen that sunrise hundreds of times now, I've seen that tree, that easter egg, that landscape, that environment hundreds of times now.  It is no longer interesting.

I also would like many different things to do.  Which is why I would like interesting travel, however it isn't there.  It is the same travel over and over and over... again.  It is not a different thing to do.  Even EQ, going through kitchikor at night was interesting the first few times - not the 27th...

However maybe someday in the future, there will be enough varied events that travel will be interesting.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4662

5/09/12 3:28:33 PM#171

@ OP...

The MMOs that force grouping are failing even harder than the solo MMOs. It's been tried, quite a lot, and it's no longer a valid design choice. The last game to try doing that was FFXIV, which is a complete disaster. FFXI before it did it alright for a time, but it caused way too many problems down the road, and they were basically forced to try and convert it into a soloer's game.

I'm sorry, but when it comes to game design, you are focusing on the nostalgia of old-school MMOs, instead of on what the actual problems with the genre really are. Designing a game around this fails sooo hard, and yet people keep thinking that's all that's needed. The saddest thing is, once a game does try to pander to this fantasy, it fails, and the fantasy doesn't get questioned, it's always just that 'the game fell short'.

  Martinmas

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/05
Posts: 239

5/09/12 3:45:39 PM#172

It would be nice if games just released with different server types for grouping preferences. Keep the normal servers but also offer at least one server that caters to the solo player, one for the duo/small group types and one for those who want to run in full groups. 

 

Face it games more than likely are not going to change back to a more group oriented way but maybe they can offer different servers for different playstyles just like they do for PVP and role-players now.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/09/12 3:54:04 PM#173
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

 Take out all the cutscenes from Bioware games because that's just 'waiting to play the game', 

More accurately: take them out of Bioware games where their purpose is weak (ToR) but leave them in when their purpose is strong (Mass Effect.)   In one game they have gameplay because your choices very frequently have important consequences.  In the other game (ToR) your decisions are nearly always irrelevant, which results in spacebar-spamming.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/09/12 3:57:48 PM#174
Originally posted by Banaghran

I am not pretending anything, it is you who requires a specific environment, a "typical mmo" (which not even wow or rift fit properly), just to make you point work. 

Until you name multiple mainstream MMORPGs where travel isn't a shallow experience, you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreement.

In AO, UO, DAOC, Vanguard, Shadowbane, WOW, RIFT, ToR, AC1, and AC2, travel involves no gameplay beyond avoiding monsters and spamming whatever movespeed advantages your characters have.

This is not gameplay depth by any stretch of the imagination.

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

5/09/12 3:58:34 PM#175
Originally posted by aesperus

@ OP...

The MMOs that force grouping are failing even harder than the solo MMOs. It's been tried, quite a lot, and it's no longer a valid design choice. The last game to try doing that was FFXIV, which is a complete disaster. FFXI before it did it alright for a time, but it caused way too many problems down the road, and they were basically forced to try and convert it into a soloer's game.

I'm sorry, but when it comes to game design, you are focusing on the nostalgia of old-school MMOs, instead of on what the actual problems with the genre really are. Designing a game around this fails sooo hard, and yet people keep thinking that's all that's needed. The saddest thing is, once a game does try to pander to this fantasy, it fails, and the fantasy doesn't get questioned, it's always just that 'the game fell short'.

Unfair! Old-school mmo:s had no forced grouping. When you can do whatever you want and try anything there is no forced grouping. Rigid mechanics that force you to group in some zones or areas is forced grouping. Special mobs that are called "group mobs" are forced grouping.

There can be nostalgia without any sort of forced grouping. Read my other post in this thread!

Modern games are using mechanics that are to rigid. There is to much hand holding. Its to linear and to much on rails. If all that could be removed there would be no reason to discuss forced grouping.

  SoulOfRaziel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 410

5/09/12 4:02:31 PM#176

People like freedom to make their choices even in game so yea a game that FORCE something as group play to the player is almost certainly doomed.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/09/12 4:07:20 PM#177
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 In general I agree Travel doesn't have to be that way, however it currently is.

Until travel becomes intersting I'll take instant travel every time. 

Yes, exactly!

Which is why Oberan's original comment (that gamers are "lazy" for not wanting to engage in the shallowest game mechanic in MMORPGs) was so ridiculous.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 679

5/09/12 4:13:17 PM#178
Originally posted by nomatics856

These "solo" mmorpgs today are failing hard, and are nothing more but online action games than any thing else, a company needs to try something different by focusing more on grouping and less on soloing, not getting rid of soloing all together, but maybe go the EQ route were there are more benefits to grouping than soloing.

 

mmorpgs today if you solo, you get more exp per mobs, no fighting over loot, a faster way to level, if you group up, there is a exp shared pentaty, fighting over loot, etc etc.

 

I dont like how mmorpgs are going these days, in SWTOR I can take on 6-7 mobs and kill almost everything in one to two hits, and really its not even SWTOR fault, its how most mmorpgs are today, how is that fun? This is how these "mmorpgs" of today are becoming boring. Trying to balance soloing and grouping in one game is proving too difficult for these companys today. One side will cry nerf, one side will cry buff. Generally the solo crowd wins and the mobs become easier.

What we need is a mmorpg whos focus is on grouping seeing as its an "RPG" and "Online". Did companys seem to forget that RPGS were almost always about partying even in single player rpgs.  So what we need is a mmorpg that focuses on grouping but gives soloing options, like a couple classes that excel at soloing, like EQ did with the beastlord and necromancer.

The answer is very simple....there are more "casual gamers" than there are "hardcore gamers".  I use "casual" and "hardcore" only for lack of a better word.

There are more folks that enjoy some kind of gaming experience as entertainment that have too much "life stuff" that make them gravitate to casual games that they can easily pick up & put down, and get a feeling of acomplishment with very short 30 minute play cycles than there are gamers that have the luxury of being able to dedicate themselves to one singluar game for a long period of time.

 

There are way more gamers out there that can fit a quick 15 minute Plants vs Zombies session, or a 30 minute WOW Battleground in their busy lives than there are folks that have the time to look for group members, organize a party, move everyone out to location....have someone drop out mid way through...wait for a replacement, and then finish the event.

 

This isn't a knock on grouping in MMORPGs.....quite frankly, I agree with your analysis completely.  The issue is that MMORPG gaming has become so profit driven (given it's success in the last decade) that developers & publishers are gearing games to appeal to the mass (and fickle) audience than to smaller niche groups of dedicated players.

 

The reason a new Ultima Online hasn't been re-created isn't because it was a bad game.  It's because the number of gamers that would be down for a game that demanded 1-4 hours of time 4-5 days a week to make a fair amount of progress can't pay for the HUGE costs associated with delivering a super polished AAA MMORPG.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

5/09/12 4:35:26 PM#179
Originally posted by Axehilt

Until you name multiple mainstream MMORPGs where travel isn't a shallow experience, you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreement.

In AO, UO, DAOC, Vanguard, Shadowbane, WOW, RIFT, ToR, AC1, and AC2, travel involves no gameplay beyond avoiding monsters and spamming whatever movespeed advantages your characters have.

This is not gameplay depth by any stretch of the imagination.

Why should i name some mmos that fit YOUR claim, that i dont even disagree with?

It was you who disagreed with my suggestion that the depth of any mechanic is dependent on the implementation (meaning "travel and exploration CAN be a part of gameplay like combat and dungeon running, but obviously not everyone EXPECTS it to be a part of the gameplay"), citing some fabled typical mainstream mmo where players work in concert with each other in combat as opposed to the reality of the majority of playerbase unfortunately hitting mostly memorized or random keys just to get loot, oblivious to their surroundings, playing your "deep gameplay" like everyone is playing "travelling".

Flame on!

:)

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/09/12 5:13:38 PM#180

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