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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » why not try forced grouping? Or a mmorpg that focuses more in grouping than soloing

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186 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/08/12 12:14:20 PM#141
Originally posted by Saryhl

The most successful Games in the MMORPG Industry? WoW is the Only Successful game in the MMORPG industry right now,  by industry standards since its incarnation. No game since has been successful by those same standards. Read these forums every day and you will hear people screaming this game is a failure, no this game, yea this game too. No game has been able to use Solo play to rise to the top. Not Even WoW. As my post above this states. Classic WoW was still more than 50% group oriented. They softened it up, but did not do away with needing groups til much later. MMO's are NOT SOLO games, that isnt what they are about. plain and simple.

Well it's hard to have a discussion with someone who plugs their ears and goes "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU" when all the facts of reality are screaming at them.

Meanwhile obviously WOW wasn't 50% group-oriented at launch.

Obviously many MMORPGs apart from WOW have been successful.  Even WAR made money.

Obviously this forum's opinion that ToR deserves 0 subscribers is complete nonsense and 1.3mm players actually play it.

Therefore obviously what you read in this forum isn't exactly reflective of the actual state of the industry (did you really think it was?)

Obviously the game is profitable, given that my early harsh numbers crunch (30% sub decline monthly) showed the game would be profitable after 4-5 months with 400-500k subs, and then EA recently came forward and said yes it would've been profitable at 500k -- and that they have 1.3mm instead.

It's up to you whether you chase after imaginary/fabricated opinions, or observable facts (reality.)  I don't have a particularly high opinion of religion, personally. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

5/08/12 12:22:18 PM#142
Originally posted by Mathizsias

Because MMO's are like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box

Which will breed individualism over altruism, which is basically what has been destroying western soceity since the middle ages.

 

I prefer western society TODAY 1000x over the middle ages. If what we have today is "being destroyed" .. please destroy the world some more.

And what is so great about altruism in a GAME? Those are ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS to have fun. We are not solving world hunger here.

 

  Neiken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/10/04
Posts: 253

Take time to deliberate; but when the time for action arrives, stop thinking and go in.-A Jackson

5/08/12 12:27:48 PM#143

The best most succesful MMO that forced grouping was FFXI, it was fun when you were in a group and taking on stuff, but when you were looking for a group for 2 hours it isnt. I started to feel like my progression in this game was subject to others, it didnt rely on me, and with no real viable options to solo, I quit after 2 months.

I dont touch anything now with forced grouping, but to each their own.

  potbellyrhi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/07
Posts: 39

5/08/12 12:35:58 PM#144
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Saryhl

The most successful Games in the MMORPG Industry? WoW is the Only Successful game in the MMORPG industry right now,  by industry standards since its incarnation. No game since has been successful by those same standards. Read these forums every day and you will hear people screaming this game is a failure, no this game, yea this game too. No game has been able to use Solo play to rise to the top. Not Even WoW. As my post above this states. Classic WoW was still more than 50% group oriented. They softened it up, but did not do away with needing groups til much later. MMO's are NOT SOLO games, that isnt what they are about. plain and simple.

Well it's hard to have a discussion with someone who plugs their ears and goes "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU" when all the facts of reality are screaming at them.

Meanwhile obviously WOW wasn't 50% group-oriented at launch.

I don't know about 50% but Vanilla WOW was centered around group content during and after the leveling curve.

Obviously many MMORPGs apart from WOW have been successful.  Even WAR made money.

We don't know if WAR made money. I'd say the fact it was shut down was an indicator it wasn't making money or if it even broke even.

Obviously this forum's opinion that ToR deserves 0 subscribers is complete nonsense and 1.3mm players actually play it.

1.3mil players dont play SWTOR. It has 1.3mil subs with-in the "free" subscription period and a number of 6 month subscriptions still ongoing by people who no longer play.

Therefore obviously what you read in this forum isn't exactly reflective of the actual state of the industry (did you really think it was?)

Very true.

Obviously the game is profitable, given that my early harsh numbers crunch (30% sub decline monthly) showed the game would be profitable after 4-5 months with 400-500k subs, and then EA recently came forward and said yes it would've been profitable at 500k -- and that they have 1.3mm instead.

None of that is what was said by EA or BW.  Your early harsh number crunhc is wrong. The 500k subs was said during development as an example of what would make them profitable though they never mentioned a time limit. 500k subs over 10 years would prob make them profitable. I doubt highly they imagined after 5 months having less than 50% player retention. From my harsh numbers crunch at 2mil subs it would take them 6 months to become profitable from just their dev costs and thats with 100% profit from box sales not to mention all the other crap you need to support the game which (out of my ass) is prob another 75- 100mil.

It's up to you whether you chase after imaginary/fabricated opinions, or observable facts (reality.)  I don't have a particularly high opinion of religion, personally. 

Or misquote and list made up facts from several different games. Bad "reality" is bad.

 

 

  xDayx

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 713

5/08/12 12:42:23 PM#145

There already are MMOs that focus more on grouping... there called full-pvp full-loot sandboxes. You're never forced to group but survivability is greatly increased.

But whatever.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/08/12 12:58:09 PM#146
Originally posted by Saryhl
Solo = Failed MMO. Get your facts straight.

Interesting conjunction there.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  UsualSuspect

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

5/08/12 1:01:45 PM#147
Originally posted by Quirhid

I get the feeling that the games you refer to as being "solo-based" are actually more like "solo friendly". Obviously these games have been specifically designed for multiplayer. Don't be a drama queen and claim otherwise.

SW:TOR is the perfect example of a solo-based game. You can go through the entire levelling experience never talking to another person, you have a companion to aid you through difficult fights, you heal in seconds when a fight is over, and so on.. The grouping in games like this do come as an afterthought, it's as if they designed a single player game then went, "Oh crap, we forgot the multiplayer!", and quickly throw together a few minor instanced dungeons, a once every 10 levels group quest, then a couple of end game raids and go, "Phew, that was a close one.". The vast majority of newly released MMO's follow this same pattern.

Grouping makes life easier in nearly every game out there. Oftentimes grouping just is not very convenient which makes players think of soloing as a good alternative. If a game has strictly group roles and characters rely heavily on each other, you just make the game much more inconvenient. Nobody wants to wait for hours for someone to fill in a critical party role. No one cares to fill just one role throughout the whole game. Players do not accept this anymore.

I'm happy to wait if it means the content is so much more fun and the player interaction is entertaining. Why am I willing to wait? Because MMO's are generally designed to last, you can play them for years, I played original EQ for 5 years before moving on and still go back to it on occasion. So what if I'm stuck waiting for an hour or two? I have tomorrow, the whole week, the whole month, hell the whole year to get things done, what's the problem?

This is the problem with modern MMO's and a lot of the modern MMO gamers, they want everything now, they want this, want that, want to be able to solo this, get that raid loot without raiding, level up every 10 minutes, get to max level quick quick quick. And the games are starting to support this playstyle, people got to max level in TOR within a week! The combat is all rush rush, button mashing, no time to stop. "No time for talking, let's get to the action!". 

It's no wonder nobody wants to group when things fly at such a pace, it breaks the flow of the game, as you say people don't want to wait for hours because they could be bashing through a few hundred mobs alone in that time. It's a case that not only are new MMO's flawed, but the new batch of MMO's have caused an influx of players that would never play an MMO like EQ, so they expect every following MMO to cater to them. But they jump from game to game like locusts, consuming the content then moving on. 

That is why we see the shift towards flexible party roles, flexible classes and ways to make grouping much more accessible and effortless. Ways how GW2 promotes spontaneous grouping is what I'd like to see. That you're actually happy to see other people where you are, and you can join and leave as you will without any hassle. It is convenient - unlike forced grouping which is extremely inconvenient.

The only people it's convenient for are those I mentioned above, the people who want to bash bash solo solo everything and good luck to anyone that gets in the way. GW2 just spots a bunch of people doing the same content and bunches them all together. What does that achieve? Nothing has changed, people are still doing their own thing. Grouping is supposed to be a gathering of people working together, hence the name, GW2's idea of grouping is akin to a riot. People are heading in the same direction but none of them care about the people next to them.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/08/12 1:03:58 PM#148
Originally posted by potbellyrhi
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Saryhl

The most successful Games in the MMORPG Industry? WoW is the Only Successful game in the MMORPG industry right now,  by industry standards since its incarnation. No game since has been successful by those same standards. Read these forums every day and you will hear people screaming this game is a failure, no this game, yea this game too. No game has been able to use Solo play to rise to the top. Not Even WoW. As my post above this states. Classic WoW was still more than 50% group oriented. They softened it up, but did not do away with needing groups til much later. MMO's are NOT SOLO games, that isnt what they are about. plain and simple.

Well it's hard to have a discussion with someone who plugs their ears and goes "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU" when all the facts of reality are screaming at them.

Meanwhile obviously WOW wasn't 50% group-oriented at launch.

I don't know about 50% but Vanilla WOW was centered around group content during and after the leveling curve.

Obviously many MMORPGs apart from WOW have been successful.  Even WAR made money.

We don't know if WAR made money. I'd say the fact it was shut down was an indicator it wasn't making money or if it even broke even.

Obviously this forum's opinion that ToR deserves 0 subscribers is complete nonsense and 1.3mm players actually play it.

1.3mil players dont play SWTOR. It has 1.3mil subs with-in the "free" subscription period and a number of 6 month subscriptions still ongoing by people who no longer play.

Therefore obviously what you read in this forum isn't exactly reflective of the actual state of the industry (did you really think it was?)

Very true.

Obviously the game is profitable, given that my early harsh numbers crunch (30% sub decline monthly) showed the game would be profitable after 4-5 months with 400-500k subs, and then EA recently came forward and said yes it would've been profitable at 500k -- and that they have 1.3mm instead.

None of that is what was said by EA or BW.  Your early harsh number crunhc is wrong. The 500k subs was said during development as an example of what would make them profitable though they never mentioned a time limit. 500k subs over 10 years would prob make them profitable. I doubt highly they imagined after 5 months having less than 50% player retention. From my harsh numbers crunch at 2mil subs it would take them 6 months to become profitable from just their dev costs and thats with 100% profit from box sales not to mention all the other crap you need to support the game which (out of my ass) is prob another 75- 100mil.

It's up to you whether you chase after imaginary/fabricated opinions, or observable facts (reality.)  I don't have a particularly high opinion of religion, personally. 

Or misquote and list made up facts from several different games. Bad "reality" is bad. 

Were you trying to prove my point about people fabricating their own imagined reality?

You start off claiming WAR was "shut down", in spite of a March patch, and the game clearly still running (which it wouldn't be if maintaining it at whatever level of support it's being maintained at wasn't profitable.)

Then you bring up "6 month subscriptions of people who no longer play", as if that somehow matters to a company's bottom line profits -- and as if that's actually a substantial portion of their revenue (which seems very unlikely)

And then this link shows that yes, 1.3mm has been publicly reported by EA as the subscriber count.

My early numbers crunch was based on an assumption of only 1.3mm total box sales and 30% decline every month for 4-5 months, at which time $200mm revenue was made (give or take whatever the brick-and-mortar profit margin was, and the only source I had regarding that was someone claiming they were "razor thin" profit margins.)  Apparently there have now been 2.3mm total box sales, which I believe would've surpassed $200mm revenue on box sales alone.

Some of us prefer facts over fabrications.

  Mathizsias

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/06
Posts: 16

5/08/12 1:09:07 PM#149
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Mathizsias

Because MMO's are like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box

Which will breed individualism over altruism, which is basically what has been destroying western soceity since the middle ages.

 

I prefer western society TODAY 1000x over the middle ages. If what we have today is "being destroyed" .. please destroy the world some more.

And what is so great about altruism in a GAME? Those are ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS to have fun. We are not solving world hunger here.

 

Looking up the definition of altruism and just reading whats underneath the pictures on Wikipedia does not educate you on it's meaning.

Altruism is the opposite of egoism, I bet you know what that means. I'm not saying anywhere that the middle ages were better than current day soceity either. Not willing to start a social debate, simply because I'm not knowledgable enough on the subject nor will my grasp of the English language be sufficient.

The OP is asking the question why they won't force grouping, and in my opinion, we've been structured for the most part to think differently in current day soceity, you may disagree, but it's how I see things. MMO's have evolved from social cesspools to errand running, pissing contest games, much like their singleplayer variants.

I'm trying to say that simple psychology can be applied to MMO's to explain player trends. Self importance IS destroying our soceity, go read a book, one by Georg Simmel or some such written in the early 1900's still relevant today.

Lastly, I agree these products are to entertain, but denying there are social problems in a game or a lack of selflessness is silly if you ask me.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

5/08/12 1:14:55 PM#150
Originally posted by Mathizsias
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Mathizsias

Because MMO's are like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box

Which will breed individualism over altruism, which is basically what has been destroying western soceity since the middle ages.

 

I prefer western society TODAY 1000x over the middle ages. If what we have today is "being destroyed" .. please destroy the world some more.

And what is so great about altruism in a GAME? Those are ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS to have fun. We are not solving world hunger here.

 

Looking up the definition of altruism and just reading whats underneath the pictures on Wikipedia does not educate you on it's meaning.

Altruism is the opposite of egoism, I bet you know what that means. I'm not saying anywhere that the middle ages were better than current day soceity either. Not willing to start a social debate, simply because I'm not knowledgable enough on the subject nor will my grasp of the English language be sufficient.

The OP is asking the question why they won't force grouping, and in my opinion, we've been structured for the most part to think differently in current day soceity, you may disagree, but it's how I see things. MMO's have evolved from social cesspools to errand running, pissing contest games, much like their singleplayer variants.

I'm trying to say that simple psychology can be applied to MMO's to explain player trends. Self importance IS destroying our soceity, go read a book, one by Georg Simmel or some such written in the early 1900's still relevant today.

Lastly, I agree these products are to entertain, but denying there are social problems in a game or a lack of selflessness is silly if you ask me.

I am not denying there is a lack of selflessness in games. I am merely saying why it matters. So people are selfish in games. So what?

I don't play games to be a model citizen. I do that for fun. So once again, why is that a problem? So we have a lot of selfish people in games ... if i am having fun, do i really care?

  Vidir

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

5/08/12 1:46:06 PM#151
Originally posted by TacoShank
Originally posted by EduardoASG
Originally posted by Vidir

There is not a singel game out ther now that does not try to force you to group sooner or later,and that is why people leav the games after the free month.

^This.

You have to realize a big % of players while enjoying online gaming, cannt or dont want to team up while playing for several reasons.

Any game where people are forced to team up its a fail on the long run. That is why so many people leave online games after the first month, after reachign the max they can while single playing.

What? Where are the stats on this? World of Warcraft still has 10 million people playing after 7 years, and it's the perfect example of a game that "forces you to team up". Once players hit the endgame it gets dang close to the definition of forced group play, at least if players want to stay relevant.

Explain to me how dungeons and raids don't invlove any group play, and how this isn't one of the main attractions for WoW.

 World of warcrft never had 10 mill paying customers and never will.they might have 10 mill active accounts including asia where you dont pay monthly fee.

  instantlock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/12
Posts: 2

5/08/12 2:02:12 PM#152

@wow

 

i just want to say that wow and it's  comunity is falling down

 

Activision Blizzard told investors during a recent earnings call that the renowned game lost about 300,000 players during the last financial quarter — bringing the number of subscribers to 11.1 million worldwide. That's the second quarter in a row the game has lost players.

Yeah, 11.1 million players — that's still a whole lot of people playing the seven-year old, fantasy role-playing game. But at its peak, "World of Warcraft" boasted 12 million players worldwide.

 

link to site::

http://adf.ly/8Ii1E

  potbellyrhi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/07
Posts: 39

5/08/12 2:30:58 PM#153
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by potbellyrhi
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Saryhl

The most successful Games in the MMORPG Industry? WoW is the Only Successful game in the MMORPG industry right now,  by industry standards since its incarnation. No game since has been successful by those same standards. Read these forums every day and you will hear people screaming this game is a failure, no this game, yea this game too. No game has been able to use Solo play to rise to the top. Not Even WoW. As my post above this states. Classic WoW was still more than 50% group oriented. They softened it up, but did not do away with needing groups til much later. MMO's are NOT SOLO games, that isnt what they are about. plain and simple.

Well it's hard to have a discussion with someone who plugs their ears and goes "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU" when all the facts of reality are screaming at them.

Meanwhile obviously WOW wasn't 50% group-oriented at launch.

I don't know about 50% but Vanilla WOW was centered around group content during and after the leveling curve.

Obviously many MMORPGs apart from WOW have been successful.  Even WAR made money.

We don't know if WAR made money. I'd say the fact it was shut down was an indicator it wasn't making money or if it even broke even.

Obviously this forum's opinion that ToR deserves 0 subscribers is complete nonsense and 1.3mm players actually play it.

1.3mil players dont play SWTOR. It has 1.3mil subs with-in the "free" subscription period and a number of 6 month subscriptions still ongoing by people who no longer play.

Therefore obviously what you read in this forum isn't exactly reflective of the actual state of the industry (did you really think it was?)

Very true.

Obviously the game is profitable, given that my early harsh numbers crunch (30% sub decline monthly) showed the game would be profitable after 4-5 months with 400-500k subs, and then EA recently came forward and said yes it would've been profitable at 500k -- and that they have 1.3mm instead.

None of that is what was said by EA or BW.  Your early harsh number crunhc is wrong. The 500k subs was said during development as an example of what would make them profitable though they never mentioned a time limit. 500k subs over 10 years would prob make them profitable. I doubt highly they imagined after 5 months having less than 50% player retention. From my harsh numbers crunch at 2mil subs it would take them 6 months to become profitable from just their dev costs and thats with 100% profit from box sales not to mention all the other crap you need to support the game which (out of my ass) is prob another 75- 100mil.

It's up to you whether you chase after imaginary/fabricated opinions, or observable facts (reality.)  I don't have a particularly high opinion of religion, personally. 

Or misquote and list made up facts from several different games. Bad "reality" is bad. 

Were you trying to prove my point about people fabricating their own imagined reality?

You start off claiming WAR was "shut down", in spite of a March patch, and the game clearly still running (which it wouldn't be if maintaining it at whatever level of support it's being maintained at wasn't profitable.)

Then you bring up "6 month subscriptions of people who no longer play", as if that somehow matters to a company's bottom line profits -- and as if that's actually a substantial portion of their revenue (which seems very unlikely)

And then this link shows that yes, 1.3mm has been publicly reported by EA as the subscriber count.

My early numbers crunch was based on an assumption of only 1.3mm total box sales and 30% decline every month for 4-5 months, at which time $200mm revenue was made (give or take whatever the brick-and-mortar profit margin was, and the only source I had regarding that was someone claiming they were "razor thin" profit margins.)  Apparently there have now been 2.3mm total box sales, which I believe would've surpassed $200mm revenue on box sales alone.

Some of us prefer facts over fabrications.

Lol sorry about the WAR comment. Thought it was dead.

 

And yes it was about making up numbers and trying to get people to realize subs =/= players. So yeah 1.3 reported ina  report based on a timeframe where multitudes of players were forced subs. And BW stated "about 5% of our players have ordered 6 month subscriptions" in a statement to the press in december.

 

Even in your number crunch you dont mention a point where profitability is achieved. But we have numbers 2.3 mil box sales, 1.9 subs declining to 1.3 (not even noted as paying subs BTW) it'll still be a couple months before they break DEV costs. Let alone personnel, manufacturing and infrastructure.

 

BTW $65 (avg.) a box at 2.3 mil sales doesnt surpass dev costs. Not hard math. And thats with 100% profit.

 

But again subs =/= players, especially with that statement from EA.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/08/12 11:59:36 PM#154
Originally posted by potbellyrhi

Lol sorry about the WAR comment. Thought it was dead.

 And yes it was about making up numbers and trying to get people to realize subs =/= players. So yeah 1.3 reported ina  report based on a timeframe where multitudes of players were forced subs. And BW stated "about 5% of our players have ordered 6 month subscriptions" in a statement to the press in december.

 Even in your number crunch you dont mention a point where profitability is achieved. But we have numbers 2.3 mil box sales, 1.9 subs declining to 1.3 (not even noted as paying subs BTW) it'll still be a couple months before they break DEV costs. Let alone personnel, manufacturing and infrastructure.

 BTW $65 (avg.) a box at 2.3 mil sales doesnt surpass dev costs. Not hard math. And thats with 100% profit.

 But again subs =/= players, especially with that statement from EA.

Well yeah, "thought it was dead" is basing your arguments on random guesswork instead of solid facts or thinking.

For example, using a more cautious model of deluxe sales for ToR than my original estimate, but the new 2.6mm box sale number and pretending 1mm of those players never subbed a day:

  • $79.99 deluxe edition cost * 2.3mm box sales * 5% of total boxes sold = $9.2mm
  • $59.99 regular cost * 2.3mm box sales * 95% of total boxes sold = $131.0mm
  • Total Box Sales: $140.2mm
  • 2.6mm potential subscribers - 30% decay before month 1 = 1.82mm
  • <each number past the first is an additional 30% decay from the month prior>
  • 1.82mm * $14.99 = $27.2mm
  • 1.27mm * $14.99 = $19.1mm
  • 891.8k * $14.99 = $13.3mm
  • 624.3k * $14.99 = $9.3mm
Resulting in a five-months-out revenue of $209.1mm.
 
All the guesses here are pretty conservative, given that they're citing 1.3mm subscribers now when my original model (based on 1.7mm subs, bleeding 30%, with zero growth) put them at 408.1k subs by now, making $197mm total.
 
It's unlikely their live dev team + advertising burns more than $9.3mm per month (and if it did, they'd simply ease off the pedal and coast and continue making profit while those devs moved onto the next project.)   In the unlikely event that they run 100 devs whose salaries averaged $100k (extremely high!) their burn rate would be $833k a month in dev expenses which still leaves millions each month for advertising!
  User Deleted
5/09/12 12:05:57 AM#155
Originally posted by nomatics856

These "solo" mmorpgs today are failing hard, and are nothing more but online action games than any thing else, a company needs to try something different by focusing more on grouping and less on soloing, not getting rid of soloing all together, but maybe go the EQ route were there are more benefits to grouping than soloing.

 

mmorpgs today if you solo, you get more exp per mobs, no fighting over loot, a faster way to level, if you group up, there is a exp shared pentaty, fighting over loot, etc etc.

 

I dont like how mmorpgs are going these days, in SWTOR I can take on 6-7 mobs and kill almost everything in one to two hits, and really its not even SWTOR fault, its how most mmorpgs are today, how is that fun? This is how these "mmorpgs" of today are becoming boring. Trying to balance soloing and grouping in one game is proving too difficult for these companys today. One side will cry nerf, one side will cry buff. Generally the solo crowd wins and the mobs become easier.

What we need is a mmorpg whos focus is on grouping seeing as its an "RPG" and "Online". Did companys seem to forget that RPGS were almost always about partying even in single player rpgs.  So what we need is a mmorpg that focuses on grouping but gives soloing options, like a couple classes that excel at soloing, like EQ did with the beastlord and necromancer.

In Asheron's Call  Icould take on 20+ mobs solo if I was smart enough but the game also rewarded players for grouping because alot of the quests were HARD and took groups to do which also rewarded the best XP per hour and other nifty things like Rare Imbues for Weapons or Titles or Rare Keys to open treasure chests scattered across the world which contianed a higher then average chance of getting phat loot.  The key was both playstyles were rewarded and that should be the ultimate goal of an MMO.  Forced anything is bad but on that same token solo only content that is plagued with Tera style fed-ex quests are just as bad.  One last thing, games which do a 180 upon level cap are also a reason why MMO's fail. 

  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

5/09/12 1:00:32 AM#156
Originally posted by Sylvarii
Originally posted by nomatics856
Originally posted by Venger

Wasn't that vanguards claim to fame.  Remind me again how did that do?  Tank and spank grouping is dead.

I played vanguard during release and no vanguard died for other reasons

1. Lack of Group content--WFT are you talking about lol,Vanguard has a vast amount of group content.

2. You can still easily solo with any class--Can you lol,tell that to a rogue or a warrior as they gain levels.Every class can kill mobs but some classes really wont get far without grouping.

3. it had sooOOOOOO many bugs during release--Yes Vanguard had many bug 5+ years ago when it release.

4. It had a TON of performance issues--See above/\ i will say that many players just didn't have the top end pc that ran vanguard with minimal performance issue,i was one of the lucky few.

5. lack of end game content--Yes Vanguard had lack of end game content but it also has/had many vast dungeons that can/could take a week to do or days.Many of the dungeons are bigger than most raid dungeons in other MMOs.Now Vanguard has more end game content that takes months to complete.If you started Vanguard today you would not see most of the game for a very long time.

Vanguard did not die due to grouping.--That's right.

Vanguard is a grouping game,you are not forced to group but you would miss out on some epic adventures and dungeons.If you choose to solo all the way to 55 you would be doing so for months on end,it would be slow mo.

When it comes to group or just content games like GW2 and RIFT and swtor cant even get close.

Can you please describe the full group experience and content of GW2 for the rest of us ?

I am  not disagreeing with you as I have not had the opportunity to play a complete version of GW2 as of yet. The fact that it has not yet gone live, and has had only one 'open' beta weekend event, makes such a comparison virtually impossible for me. What was your trick ?

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

5/09/12 1:17:38 AM#157
Originally posted by Vidir
Originally posted by TacoShank
Originally posted by EduardoASG
Originally posted by Vidir

There is not a singel game out ther now that does not try to force you to group sooner or later,and that is why people leav the games after the free month.

^This.

You have to realize a big % of players while enjoying online gaming, cannt or dont want to team up while playing for several reasons.

Any game where people are forced to team up its a fail on the long run. That is why so many people leave online games after the first month, after reachign the max they can while single playing.

What? Where are the stats on this? World of Warcraft still has 10 million people playing after 7 years, and it's the perfect example of a game that "forces you to team up". Once players hit the endgame it gets dang close to the definition of forced group play, at least if players want to stay relevant.

Explain to me how dungeons and raids don't invlove any group play, and how this isn't one of the main attractions for WoW.

 World of warcrft never had 10 mill paying customers and never will.they might have 10 mill active accounts including asia where you dont pay monthly fee.

He didnt say that it did, and the individual to whom he was responding made no distinction about paying customers either.

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

5/09/12 11:49:56 AM#158
Originally posted by Axehilt

Most people understand that traveling somewhere in a typical MMORPG (not counting fast travel) is extremely shallow whereas dungeons require considerably more mastery to perform (due to many more game mechanics being involved.)  Run a dungeon the second time and you almost certainly have learning left to do.  Travel a second time and there's really nothing left to learn.

If you want to pretend that's not the case, you're free to do so, but you're just plugging your ears.

Most people understand that a silencer completely silences a firearm...

I am not pretending anything, it is you who requires a specific environment, a "typical mmo" (which not even wow or rift fit properly), just to make you point work.

Flame on!

:)

 

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/12 11:58:55 AM#159
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by Axehilt

Most people understand that traveling somewhere in a typical MMORPG (not counting fast travel) is extremely shallow whereas dungeons require considerably more mastery to perform (due to many more game mechanics being involved.)  Run a dungeon the second time and you almost certainly have learning left to do.  Travel a second time and there's really nothing left to learn.

If you want to pretend that's not the case, you're free to do so, but you're just plugging your ears.

Most people understand that a silencer completely silences a firearm...

I am not pretending anything, it is you who requires a specific environment, a "typical mmo" (which not even wow or rift fit properly), just to make you point work.

Flame on!

:)

 

 Every MMO I've ever played has been like that.  VG, CoH, EQ, WoW, SwTor, Ryzom...  Travel in them had no real gameplay, it was always just about getting from A to B with very very little happening inbetween.  So yes I would say those are typical MMO's, and in typical MMO's travel has no or very little gameplay value, it is just waiting to play the game.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  UsualSuspect

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

5/09/12 12:22:44 PM#160
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Every MMO I've ever played has been like that.  VG, CoH, EQ, WoW, SwTor, Ryzom...  Travel in them had no real gameplay, it was always just about getting from A to B with very very little happening inbetween.  So yes I would say those are typical MMO's, and in typical MMO's travel has no or very little gameplay value, it is just waiting to play the game.

Travel is a part of the game, so you're not waiting to play the game, you're waiting to get into the action. If people have a problem with that then I don't know what to say, to me that's just ridiculous. Take out all the cutscenes from Bioware games because that's just 'waiting to play the game', take the other player out of chess because waiting for his turn to finish is just 'waiting to play the game', remove the environments from Fallout because walking through them is 'waiting to play the game'. I could go on.

The walking, riding, whooshing along on a jetski, in games is to set an atmosphere, to create the illusion of a large scale environment, to immerse you in the game world. It sounds to me that the people having trouble with walking around really just want a lobby game, where they log in, pick a map then dive in and start bashing stuff. That's never been what MMO's are about and the moment they go that way I'll be leaving the genre forever.

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