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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » why not try forced grouping? Or a mmorpg that focuses more in grouping than soloing

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186 posts found
  OberanMiM

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 237

5/06/12 10:52:31 PM#61
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by pierth
Originally posted by Axehilt

Apart from maybe ToR, which makes grouping unnecesasrily inconvenient and clunky, most MMORPGs out there tend to reward grouping better than soloing.  It was certainly true in WOW.

Must have been a different WoW than what I played.

As a tank or healer you can spend 100% of your time constantly running dungeons.  Fastest way to level, and all the best gear comes from group content.

It's been that way since around early WotLK I believe.

 

If you play a game 100% of your time as if its a lobby game then it doesn't deserve to be called an MMORPG in my book (as in just running dungeons constantly from the comforts of your capital city). Heck i recall people in Rift who leveled a max level Defiant Character while still  in Terminus (the starting area that is supposed to be in the future before they get sent back in time but i guess dungeon finders overcome all logic).

 

I also miss the time when people had to know where a dungeon is, nowadays so many people are too lazy to even walk a minute to an area... /sigh

  pierth

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 1515

5/06/12 11:09:10 PM#62
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by pierth
Originally posted by Axehilt

Apart from maybe ToR, which makes grouping unnecesasrily inconvenient and clunky, most MMORPGs out there tend to reward grouping better than soloing.  It was certainly true in WOW.

Must have been a different WoW than what I played.

As a tank or healer you can spend 100% of your time constantly running dungeons.  Fastest way to level, and all the best gear comes from group content.

It's been that way since around early WotLK I believe.

Then it definitely was a different game than the one I played. I did a bit of high level content in WotLK after a long break but the majority of my time was spent in the original and TBC. Once everything became a co-op lobby game with interserver group finders the game ceased to be anything I was looking for in a MMO.

  Hotcell

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/27/05
Posts: 265

5/06/12 11:18:21 PM#63

Final Fantasy XI does this.

I remember back when it first launched, the leveling speed was horribly slow if you try to solo. In fact, you can not kill an equal level mob if you solo. This forces people to group.

I hate the idea.

But ironically years later, I miss my times in FFXI. There were some good moments there.. and I really bonded with some people due to forced grouping. People may not like the idea of forced grouping, but I think it will give them a better gaming experience in the end.

josnic Xfire Miniprofile
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/07/12 1:07:56 AM#64
Originally posted by OberanMiM 

If you play a game 100% of your time as if its a lobby game then it doesn't deserve to be called an MMORPG in my book (as in just running dungeons constantly from the comforts of your capital city). Heck i recall people in Rift who leveled a max level Defiant Character while still  in Terminus (the starting area that is supposed to be in the future before they get sent back in time but i guess dungeon finders overcome all logic).

 I also miss the time when people had to know where a dungeon is, nowadays so many people are too lazy to even walk a minute to an area... /sigh

Sure an argument could be made for whether that still constitutes a MMO.  But does that even matter?  Very few players require a game to be an MMO to derive enjoyment from it.

And if you're going to bring up RIFT, why not bring up Instant Action which gets players into groups while still in the persistent game world?  It's a great example of convenient grouping which doesn't make the game less "MMO" (if that even matters.)

As for walking a minute to a dungeon?  That has nothing to do with gamers being lazy and everything to do with not wanting to waste their time with non-gameplay.  Gameplay is the reason players play games, and travel involves virtually no interesting gameplay (apart from the tiniest scrap of gameplay: avoiding aggro.  But that's not a deep enough system to want to repeat excessively.)

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3321

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

5/07/12 1:47:18 AM#65

I like the system used in Vanguard.

Soloing is possible at all levels, but its not that worthwhile in the end. You cant do the really interesting content.

If you have the right class, you can do some dungeons solo, but its very slow to do so, since damage dealer cant do it (except maybe Necromancer, since thats the pet class, but still it requires amazing skill).

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3563

5/07/12 1:55:21 AM#66

'Forced grouping' actually has 'outside of game' consequences.

The game dev is essentially giving up their 'power' in the direction of the game to the playerbase.

If every high level player decides to not run the leveling content, you have effectively made the game invalid for new players since eventually your playerbase is going to 'outlevel' the content.

This is something that the game dev can not control in a 'forced grouping' game.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  UsualSuspect

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

5/07/12 3:25:36 AM#67
Originally posted by Axehilt

As for walking a minute to a dungeon?  That has nothing to do with gamers being lazy and everything to do with not wanting to waste their time with non-gameplay.  Gameplay is the reason players play games, and travel involves virtually no interesting gameplay (apart from the tiniest scrap of gameplay: avoiding aggro.  But that's not a deep enough system to want to repeat excessively.)

Are you serious? If this isn't some attempt at sarcasm then please find other games to play as MMO's really aren't for you. You don't want to head to a dungeon because it doesn't involve gameplay?! Wow. Just.. wow. Talk about the entitled masses, where they want everything handed to them on a plate and now now now.  It must be horrible to walk through this massive gameworld the developers have created, just so you can go bash a few orcs. How horrifying for you!

I'd also recommend not playing any of the Grand Theft Auto games, as there's so much driving around to get to the next mission, horrible waste of time that is. Actually, I'd just stick to FPS's if I were you, lots more 'action' in those games, you don't have to worry about the whole virtual world thing.

  pierth

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 1515

5/07/12 4:05:06 AM#68
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by Axehilt

As for walking a minute to a dungeon?  That has nothing to do with gamers being lazy and everything to do with not wanting to waste their time with non-gameplay.  Gameplay is the reason players play games, and travel involves virtually no interesting gameplay (apart from the tiniest scrap of gameplay: avoiding aggro.  But that's not a deep enough system to want to repeat excessively.)

Are you serious? If this isn't some attempt at sarcasm then please find other games to play as MMO's really aren't for you. You don't want to head to a dungeon because it doesn't involve gameplay?! Wow. Just.. wow. Talk about the entitled masses, where they want everything handed to them on a plate and now now now.  It must be horrible to walk through this massive gameworld the developers have created, just so you can go bash a few orcs. How horrifying for you!

I'd also recommend not playing any of the Grand Theft Auto games, as there's so much driving around to get to the next mission, horrible waste of time that is. Actually, I'd just stick to FPS's if I were you, lots more 'action' in those games, you don't have to worry about the whole virtual world thing.

At this point (sadly) I haven't seen many MMOs that even bother with the "virtual world thing."

  UtukuMoon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/11
Posts: 1109

5/07/12 4:29:41 AM#69
Originally posted by nomatics856
Originally posted by Venger

Wasn't that vanguards claim to fame.  Remind me again how did that do?  Tank and spank grouping is dead.

I played vanguard during release and no vanguard died for other reasons

1. Lack of Group content--WFT are you talking about lol,Vanguard has a vast amount of group content.

2. You can still easily solo with any class--Can you lol,tell that to a rogue or a warrior as they gain levels.Every class can kill mobs but some classes really wont get far without grouping.

3. it had sooOOOOOO many bugs during release--Yes Vanguard had many bug 5+ years ago when it release.

4. It had a TON of performance issues--See above/\ i will say that many players just didn't have the top end pc that ran vanguard with minimal performance issue,i was one of the lucky few.

5. lack of end game content--Yes Vanguard had lack of end game content but it also has/had many vast dungeons that can/could take a week to do or days.Many of the dungeons are bigger than most raid dungeons in other MMOs.Now Vanguard has more end game content that takes months to complete.If you started Vanguard today you would not see most of the game for a very long time.

Vanguard did not die due to grouping.--That's right.

Vanguard is a grouping game,you are not forced to group but you would miss out on some epic adventures and dungeons.If you choose to solo all the way to 55 you would be doing so for months on end,it would be slow mo.

When it comes to group or just content games like GW2 and RIFT and swtor cant even get close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8ymgFyzbDo

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5538

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

5/07/12 4:56:15 AM#70
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by Axehilt

As for walking a minute to a dungeon?  That has nothing to do with gamers being lazy and everything to do with not wanting to waste their time with non-gameplay.  Gameplay is the reason players play games, and travel involves virtually no interesting gameplay (apart from the tiniest scrap of gameplay: avoiding aggro.  But that's not a deep enough system to want to repeat excessively.)

Are you serious? If this isn't some attempt at sarcasm then please find other games to play as MMO's really aren't for you. You don't want to head to a dungeon because it doesn't involve gameplay?! Wow. Just.. wow. Talk about the entitled masses, where they want everything handed to them on a plate and now now now.  It must be horrible to walk through this massive gameworld the developers have created, just so you can go bash a few orcs. How horrifying for you!

I'd also recommend not playing any of the Grand Theft Auto games, as there's so much driving around to get to the next mission, horrible waste of time that is. Actually, I'd just stick to FPS's if I were you, lots more 'action' in those games, you don't have to worry about the whole virtual world thing.

GTA actually has gameplay inbetween missions. Good and fun. MMORPGs do not have that - none that I've seen. That is why travelling feels like a burden and you'd much rather have instant travel than run around for hours in places you've been hundreds of times before avoiding aggro from trash mobs you don't want to fight for the millionth time. When you've seen it and done it again and again, game after game, you don't want to do it. Its not fun. Even in GTA the chasing police and roaming around the city gets old after a while and you just  rush from mission to mission.

There is usually hardly any or no emergent gameplay inbetween dungeons/quests/missions. Even if its players blocking your way in world PvP its just another camp. Just another skirmish. Just another random encounter. Often the dungeons offer the best fun. Why do I have to endure the secondary content in between?

Especially in games that focus on the "virtual world", those so dear to you, oftentimes the gameplay is absolutely horrid. Reality is that, too often, its not fun at all - its boring infact. Even in PnP RPGs you skipped all the boring stuff, you skipped all the mundane stuff that happened whilst travelling, inbetween adventures and dungeons - things players weren't interested in. Still PnP games had much stronger living world feel than any MMORPG I have ever come across.

Like in PnP games as in MMORPGs you shouldn't be wasting the players' time. Filling the game with mundane, pointless, timeconsuming stuff doesn't make it any more of a virtual world than without. These are games, not simulations. I don't think you'd play Microsoft Flight Simulator in real time, where you'd sit on your ass with autopilot ON after the take-off and then finally land somewhere hours later. Most people are not looking for a virtual job. So there's always going to be some things that are bent for better gameplay. And the option to fast travel to places is just one of those.

I am not lazy - call me jaded. But don't tell me I have to waste my time in order to make the game world feel "alive". I rarely read such bullcrap as this.

/rant

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5538

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

5/07/12 5:14:07 AM#71
Originally posted by Sylvarii
 

Vanguard is a grouping game,you are not forced to group but you would miss out on some epic adventures and dungeons.If you choose to solo all the way to 55 you would be doing so for months on end,it would be slow mo.

When it comes to group or just content games like GW2 and RIFT and swtor cant even get close.

Content? Content?!

Every single quest in that game was from "The Big Book of MMORPG Quests" - yes the one with just one page in it:

  • fetch X amount of Y
  • kill X amount of Y
  • go to X and talk to Y

With maybe some mixing...

  • get X amount of Y by killing Z
Except that when you had to collect X or kill Y the amounts were five times the amounts I was used to in other games. In SWTOR atleast, I didn't have to do them in excess and the explanation why I should do it was a lot better (the thing BW spent huge amounts of money on). Walls of text, thats what I had to endure in Vanguard if I wanted to follow any story.
 
Players hailed "this is how it should've been released" when I played it. I had friends too playing with me so I got to check out the group content too. My verdict was: bland, repetitive, buggy and empty for a reason. "The launch was bad" is just a convenient excuse to forget all the other stuff that sucked in that game. Whoever decided to bail out from this project early on was correct. Even if it was made well, it wasn't going to be good. Mediocre - maybe, good - hell no. Many of the design decisions just weren't all that good.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/07/12 5:49:39 AM#72

It's just an inherently silly thread.  Why not turn in a direction that we know has failed in the past, to save us from this <bad thing>?  Why not Fascism, at least the trains will run on time!?  Why not test for gas leaks with a lit match?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/07/12 10:27:09 AM#73
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Are you serious? If this isn't some attempt at sarcasm then please find other games to play as MMO's really aren't for you. You don't want to head to a dungeon because it doesn't involve gameplay?! Wow. Just.. wow. Talk about the entitled masses, where they want everything handed to them on a plate and now now now.  It must be horrible to walk through this massive gameworld the developers have created, just so you can go bash a few orcs. How horrifying for you!

I'd also recommend not playing any of the Grand Theft Auto games, as there's so much driving around to get to the next mission, horrible waste of time that is. Actually, I'd just stick to FPS's if I were you, lots more 'action' in those games, you don't have to worry about the whole virtual world thing.

It's great that you're able to enjoy a shallow experience, but most of us see right through how shallow MMORPG travel is and want our games to be filled with deeper content.

Quirhid makes a good point about GTA's travel being deeper.  Between driving, stealing, cops, and other gameplay elements, there's a lot more going on while traveling.  (Although having played every prior GTA game in the series, the lack of new, deeper travel elements actually makes travel get old faster in each new GTA title.)

As for FPSes or "action" games, that's a pretty shallow view on which games provide gameplay.  Gameplay is any interesting decision.  You can get that in a turn-based game (no action at all) as long as there's some gameplay depth.  But travel in MMORPGs provides the tiniest scrap of gameplay depth and is predominantly a wasteful timesink.  This should be self-evident to most players, but apparently isn't.

 

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7735

Logic be damned!

5/07/12 10:31:57 AM#74

I want to play with my friends/ guildies when I want to (all the time) without anyone being forced to play a character/role they don't like playing "for the good of the group."

I want to play with randoms/pugs when I want to and when I feel I need to, not because I have no other choice.

This is why I love GW2 and why I love the LFD/LFR tools in WoW.

Lack of raids/heroics etc. is the one thing I am turned off by from GW2 -

I really hope the dungeons/explorables are as difficult as they say they are.

And I really hope the mass open world elite DE's are as epic as a raid encounter can be.

Now Playing: Destiny

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

5/07/12 11:55:52 AM#75
Originally posted by Quirhid

Anything forced is bad. But I think the key here is that grouping should be made as easy and convenient as possible. Grouping is more efficient in nearly every game out there, but usually its not worth the effort. Too much of a hassle.

I don't know what games are you playing, but group is certainly easy in WOW, and DCUO, and a few other games with a LFD feature.

Plus, dungeon groups are BETTER xp, and BETTER loot in those two games when leveling up. So i don't know what the OP is smoking.

  OberanMiM

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 237

5/07/12 1:51:20 PM#76
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Are you serious? If this isn't some attempt at sarcasm then please find other games to play as MMO's really aren't for you. You don't want to head to a dungeon because it doesn't involve gameplay?! Wow. Just.. wow. Talk about the entitled masses, where they want everything handed to them on a plate and now now now.  It must be horrible to walk through this massive gameworld the developers have created, just so you can go bash a few orcs. How horrifying for you!

I'd also recommend not playing any of the Grand Theft Auto games, as there's so much driving around to get to the next mission, horrible waste of time that is. Actually, I'd just stick to FPS's if I were you, lots more 'action' in those games, you don't have to worry about the whole virtual world thing.

It's great that you're able to enjoy a shallow experience, but most of us see right through how shallow MMORPG travel is and want our games to be filled with deeper content.

Quirhid makes a good point about GTA's travel being deeper.  Between driving, stealing, cops, and other gameplay elements, there's a lot more going on while traveling.  (Although having played every prior GTA game in the series, the lack of new, deeper travel elements actually makes travel get old faster in each new GTA title.)

As for FPSes or "action" games, that's a pretty shallow view on which games provide gameplay.  Gameplay is any interesting decision.  You can get that in a turn-based game (no action at all) as long as there's some gameplay depth.  But travel in MMORPGs provides the tiniest scrap of gameplay depth and is predominantly a wasteful timesink.  This should be self-evident to most players, but apparently isn't.

 

 

So if you were reading a book, and the Cliff Notes were available. Would you just read the cliff notes? After all by your logic it removes all the uncessary fluff from the story. I mean who wants to experience a world that was crafted from someones imagination, lets just get to the nitty gritty action parts...

 

Coming soon. The Lord of the Rings  The Abridged version.

Page 1, "Frodo gets the Ring",

Page 2: Frodo drops the ring into Mt. Doom saving the world.

 

  FrostWyrm

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1028

5/07/12 2:03:06 PM#77
Originally posted by Venger
Originally posted by FrostWyrm
Originally posted by Venger
Originally posted by FrostWyrm
Originally posted by Venger

Wasn't that vanguards claim to fame.  Remind me again how did that do?  Tank and spank grouping is dead.

Vanguard crashed for completely unrelated reasons to this. If thats your argument, there are plenty of games that were perfectly soloable that have failed as well.

If I had a nickel, yes a single nickel, for every time I've heard (insert your point of view) had nothing to do with the down fall of (insert game) it was (insert this bug or that flaw).  I'd be pretty rich.

Static tank and spank grouping is dead.  Dynamic events that bring people together are the future.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said "a duck is a bird" I'd be rich too. Funny how often the truth goes around.

Duck is the common name for a large number of species in the Anatidae family of birds, which also includes swans and geese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck

:D

They're also delicious!

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/07/12 2:05:05 PM#78

If the solo crowd was winning, we wouldn't see dungeons and raids.  Just saying.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/07/12 2:12:10 PM#79

If the question is, "Why don't developers do this?" the answer is pretty simple. Investors, developers and publishers have reason to believe they'll get more return on their investment by developing the games they are developing. The return is money, or satisfaction in the game they've made.

As far as failing hard, most MMORPG today lose the bulk of their lost subs when the next new MMO comes out. So the reason they are failing is that they are making enough money to attract more development in the same genre of games. There are certainly more games than ever releasing. I don't think this is a bad thing, regardless of the focus on single player or group game play.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

5/07/12 2:20:01 PM#80

It's called Final Fantasy 11, dude. And it's not as popular are more solo-oriented games for a reason. It does have a decent-sized niche audience, or at least it did at one point. I haven't really kept up with it so I don't know how well it aged, if well at all. But FF14 was heavy on parties as well, and that was one of its many criticisms.

Perhaps drowned out by all it's other issues, it's easy to forget that. But that the new revamp of it is made to be more solo-friendly should clue you in on one of the bones of contention people have had with its systems, regardless of the vocal minority still clamouring for the "good old days" when you couldn't piss without 4 other people to help.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

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