Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by palulalula

Wau! So many nice emotions and holding hands together, happy jumping on the fields and kissing  enemies. No more bad ninja boys, it is real dream and hideout for people who want to make some cyber friends. Well -BORIIINGGGG! In my life i have many friends and i don't want you to be my game pal, that is the reason why i play eve online, so i can cheat, kill,  exct..... But it is nice to see that  most of you have found heaven and peace in this game.  To OP - THIS IS GAME and if i kill or cheat anyone it is because of fun, don't take any game to serious. You know at the end you do kill in this game!! So stop with flower power crap

    If you were as manly as your posts give the illusion of being you'd be fine with taking your PvP urges to the Mists where people expect it. I have to admit... I did enjoy Eve for awhile. Got one character producing tengus, another flying them. Just got boring after awhile.

Cmon! It is not Oprah show  and i really don't want to cry on your shoulder, it is more american way of showing emotions. In few years we will have mmo's without killing if we continue this way

Originally posted by Meleagar
what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now?

Mate, this is the fundament of our economy these days. Ellbows, ellbows, ellbows.

Social-skills dont bring you money. Compasion in our economy? Yeah..

Since now all MMOs and games in general forced you to live by the teachings of our economy, which lived by the old: Survival of the fittest.

We have noticed in the past 2 years with the crash, that we cant continue this. And this is only the start.

But what has this to do with MMOs or games in general?

Developers are just normal people, they are influenced by the same things as most of you people are :) and this is the media. Developers can bring up the craziest fantasy stories, but in their main-core they are still human somewhat. This I mean by 'influence'. They sit on a round table and discuss things that hold a game together "How we are gonna solve that, so John Doe does understand it?" - and so forth.

I wonder how we speak about this issue in 10years.

Will we still have games which main-focus is TO KILL ?

I hope not.

Originally posted by Meleagar

In the GW2 Beta, you had to actually force yourself to realize you can like being around other people now. You can be generous, patient, and enjoy the company of fellow adventurers.  They cannot kill steal, ninja-loot, or bogart your nodes. All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.

Right up until the dynamic event where you got points for gathering apples you knocked out of a tree (or a spider mob) and people would line up to grab the apples your just knocked down off the ground up while you where busy fighting the add.  I honestly don't remeber getting any contribution points for killing the spiders only turning in apples but maybe you got a little for that.

Not everyone but more than enough people did that to realize that there are still flaws in this utopia system.  The main flaw being people are involved and the system really removes all social restraints though anoymous identities.

Originally posted by Meleagar what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? 

The kind that makes money every month from your failures and your need to have to go back to that same area time and time again and try every single thing multiple times to get it.

But I completely agree... I absolutely love that aspect about GW2!

Originally posted by udon

Right up until the dynamic event where you got points for gathering apples you knocked out of a tree (or a spider mob) and people would line up to grab the apples your just knocked down off the ground up while you where busy fighting the add.  I honestly don't remeber getting any contribution points for killing the spiders only turning in apples but maybe you got a little for that.

Not everyone but more than enough people did that to realize that there are still flaws in this utopia system.  The main flaw being people are involved and the system really removes all social restraints though anoymous identities.

Actually, that wasn't a dynamic event but a hearts quest. And yes, you did get points for those spiders as well... there are always multiple ways to gain the points needed for your hearts quests.

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by Meleagar
what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now?

Mate, this is the fundament of our economy these days. Ellbows, ellbows, ellbows.

Social-skills dont bring you money. Compasion in our economy? Yeah..

Since now all MMOs and games in general forced you to live by the teachings of our economy, which lived by the old: Survival of the fittest.

We have noticed in the past 2 years with the crash, that we cant continue this. And this is only the start.

 

But what has this to do with MMOs or games in general?

Developers are just normal people, they are influenced by the same things as most of you people are :) and this is the media. Developers can bring up the craziest fantasy stories, but in their main-core they are still human somewhat. This I mean by 'influence'. They sit on a round table and discuss things that hold a game together "How we are gonna solve that, so John Doe does understand it?" - and so forth.

 

I wonder how we speak about this issue in 10years.

Will we still have games which main-focus is TO KILL ?

I hope not.

 

Well, better to kill in games then in real life

Originally posted by palulalula

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by palulalula

Wau! So many nice emotions and holding hands together, happy jumping on the fields and kissing  enemies. No more bad ninja boys, it is real dream and hideout for people who want to make some cyber friends. Well -BORIIINGGGG! In my life i have many friends and i don't want you to be my game pal, that is the reason why i play eve online, so i can cheat, kill,  exct..... But it is nice to see that  most of you have found heaven and peace in this game.  To OP - THIS IS GAME and if i kill or cheat anyone it is because of fun, don't take any game to serious. You know at the end you do kill in this game!! So stop with flower power crap

    If you were as manly as your posts give the illusion of being you'd be fine with taking your PvP urges to the Mists where people expect it. I have to admit... I did enjoy Eve for awhile. Got one character producing tengus, another flying them. Just got boring after awhile.

Cmon! It is not Oprah show  and i really don't want to cry on your shoulder, it is more american way of showing emotions. In few years we will have mmo's without killing if we continue this way

As a fellow EvE player I don't understand the point in criticizing a themepark for being a themepark other than to troll.

Originally posted by Meleagar

 All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.

so if I roll evil orc thief on this product ,no matter what i do ,what buttons i smash,when i see someone named Superkiller ,all i can do is help him and all he can do is help me,theres no other way.

sound terrible and makes me wonder what happened to role playing games.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by vesuvias

Extrodinarily well said. What I think a lot of people have trouble understanding is the vast difference between intended gameplay by the designers and the actual programmed game mechanics. These very often differ and by a large margin. It's whole reason exploiting exists. And the reason: translating intention into code (programming) is really really freaking hard. There is reason it's taken 5 years and an entire team of enigineers to get even this far.

And then the players come along and do something no one on the team ever imagined they would do. And then players take a philosophical approach of "if the game mechanics allow it, it must be ok" which couldn't be further from the truth.

This is also why I think it was such a fantastic idea for Anet to very specifically define thier game design intention with that manifesto. It not only provided a spectacular foundation for thier team but also for the community of players.

I very much disagree.

You are right on a few points, but it all comes down to base human psychology. Before I get into that, I also want to point out that these games take so long to program because they are extremely complex, not because of programming intent. It is difficult to take a creative idea and make it a tangible thing, though, but it's not because of intent. It's because artists & programmers typically operate on a completely different set of rules. Programmers basically have to figure out how to take that creative ruleset and fit it into technical language / limitations.

As for intent, & exploiting game mechanics, games are a system. Especially when it comes to MMOs. It's basic human nature to try an advantage a system, in order to achieve the best outcome. I.e. the path of least resistance. I wish I could remember the name, but an economist did an experiment on his 6 yr old daughter. He started out basically bribing her with M&Ms to try and get her to do chores, or various other tasks. She would happily go along w/ it, being as she really liked M&Ms. However, over time, she began to find out more efficient ways to get M&Ms, started bargaining, and it became harder & harder to make her do the same amount of chores within the current system. MMOs are no different.

Yes, some people grief just to be dicks. However, much of the time it's people finding a loophole in the system, and realize it's the best way to achieve what they want. Either it's camping the best mobs in the game to gain control of the best loot, or capitalizing on the endgame dungeons, forcing people to work w/ your guild, PKing entire areas for control over the best resources, etc. It falls on the game designers to try and make their games in such a way where this is either minimized or impossible.

And I'd agree on your last point. It was a great idea for Anet to release their design manifesto. Not only did it make it abundantly clear what they were trying to accomplish, but it also gave them a really solid reason NOT to include certain features that would harm their overall goal. There's been quite a few games that have implemented features over the years, because players asked for them. However, I think some of us know that most MMO gamers would make more terrible designers. They don't think about how it would effect the game as a whole, it's more about 'this sounds like an awesome feature, why don't they do this!?'.

Wierd, being an engineer by trade that just goes to show much of piss poor communicator I am. As I agree with everything you said but am a little baffeled how it differs from what I said. This miscomunication is why sometimes I will post a wall of technical text that no one reads with discalmers every other line. Translating intent into useable systems yeilds a complex system and these complex systems are not always completely accurate in modeling the "intent" was all I was trying to communicate. Shrug, I guess I will just agree to agree with you while you can agree to disagree with me :). (don't think I have ever said that before)

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Meleagar

 All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.

so if I roll evil orc thief on this product ,no matter what i do ,what buttons i smash,when i see someone named Superkiller ,all i can do is help him and all he can do is help me,theres no other way.

sound terrible and makes me wonder what happened to role playing games.

 

Well, you can always go to the pvp zone and kick everyone's ass as evil orc thief... but in the pve zone, all players are on the same side. Remember those single player role playing games where you used to create a party of 4 to battle against evil together? It's just like that... you're in this together!

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Meleagar

 All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.

so if I roll evil orc thief on this product ,no matter what i do ,what buttons i smash,when i see someone named Superkiller ,all i can do is help him and all he can do is help me,theres no other way.

sound terrible and makes me wonder what happened to role playing games.

 

You are gravely mistaken if you believe killing others is an RPG. 

Originally posted by palulalula

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by palulalula

Wau! So many nice emotions and holding hands together, happy jumping on the fields and kissing  enemies. No more bad ninja boys, it is real dream and hideout for people who want to make some cyber friends. Well -BORIIINGGGG! In my life i have many friends and i don't want you to be my game pal, that is the reason why i play eve online, so i can cheat, kill,  exct..... But it is nice to see that  most of you have found heaven and peace in this game.  To OP - THIS IS GAME and if i kill or cheat anyone it is because of fun, don't take any game to serious. You know at the end you do kill in this game!! So stop with flower power crap

    If you were as manly as your posts give the illusion of being you'd be fine with taking your PvP urges to the Mists where people expect it. I have to admit... I did enjoy Eve for awhile. Got one character producing tengus, another flying them. Just got boring after awhile.

Cmon! It is not Oprah show  and i really don't want to cry on your shoulder, it is more american way of showing emotions. In few years we will have mmo's without killing if we continue this way

Yes you do. You need to admit it. You want my shoulder to cry on. Why else would you be trolling the forums of games you're not going to play if not to chase my shoulder to cry on?

And, to be honest, I doubt we'll ever see a Guild Wars game without some highly competitive and fun PvP.

Originally posted by Mithrandolir

Originally posted by Meleagar

"OP, you make developers look like bad guys.  its ultimately the players choice"

Because players have a choice to play the game or not doesn't change the nature of what the developers have created the past 15-20 years.  Perhaps I was a little harsh - developers are just people trying to earn a living, but it's not like the player base hasn't been letting them know that they wanted a friendlier, less elitest, more inclusive and diverse game all this time. Every tiny step forward towards a more casual, friendly, and less exclusive, elitist MMORPG has been met with ranting, raving and derision from the harcore players, and always- always - with a bait-and-switch "new" game from developers.

"Without fear, it's pointless."

All I can say about this attitude is good riddance.

One thing that I LOVED was when a poster on the GW2 beta forums complained about not being able to create an actually evil character; even a street-gutter thief only had noble (or semi-noble) responses in the personal story bits. The ANET rep said, to sum up: "Other games have that. This isn't that kind of game."

I was talking about me feeling the fear, not causing it... but once again, it;s your way or the highway. This is a very common stance on both extreme sides of this coin, and I am not about to waste time challenging the extremists here.

 

 

 

 

Good Afternoon,

I'd like to join in this bit of the debate to caveat' your words on fear. I think it goes deeper than that, more so its about ego. Let's take Tera for example. I made a mystic and rolled on Valley of Titans which is a pvp server. While I do agree there needs to be balance in that there needs to be a choice to be good or bad. I just really hate pvp in the current state it seems to be in in MMOs. FFA pvp just seems like in every instance that I've come across a reason for people to grief others.

Case in point..I'm milling about my business completing quests and this bezerker or what class that is with the huge 2h weapon comes up and starts killing me. Now in any game in which I am being killed by another player and I did not openly look for a fight I will not fight back. I just hate the whole kill me while I'm dealing with mobs scenario. To even further irritate me I'm level 14 and the other person is level 24. Of course the peanut gallery chimes in...roll on a PVE server if you don't want that to happen. What ever happened to rules, or fair play? Oh and btw I was on that server to level up with a friend. I have since uninstalled Tera due to various reasons.

Even so Ego is what is going on here and even more so a projection of what we think is right onto others beliefs. The griefer of course did not engage me first, did not wait, just up and killed me. That to me is how I veiw real life as this is what we are basing these things off of. How would I treat a fellow person in real life. Or rather my conduct reflects how I would approach another person if I just met them off the street.

Guild wars is the closest I've seen to an MMO being about "being in the moment". No race to level, no kill stealing, no ganking, no name calling that I have seen...none of this. First day I log unto Tera...guess what, racist, anti-gay, sexist comments up and down the wall...we forget that we come into fantasy to leave the outside world behind. Why do we bring that crap into the game....Games are ultimately about escaping the crap world we live in today. To possibly go on a grand adventure and view interesting places. Not hear your mom jokes, racial slurs, sexist comments, gay jokes, etc...why..just why.

Even when I was younger I didn't act like that and I"m only 31 atm. What is wrong with people hell I'm not even overly nice I just "am" I don't go out of my way to help people nor do I go in my way to hurt them. I just...am. I come and go as I please and I don't disturb the water as I go. I don't expect any treatment other than to be. Tell me why is that so hard for people?

I do agree however in some form you need 'fear" or rather a penalty for operating against the norms of society. Perhaps there should be an MMo where you elect officials that actually make laws that are passed that the whole server abides by. Or there is a way you can change the laws so that you might have an all good society or all bad or a mixed bit of both. You do need however a deterrance its just in GW2 the deterrant has allready been implemented on the course to create a utopian society within game.

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Meleagar

 All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.

so if I roll evil orc thief on this product ,no matter what i do ,what buttons i smash,when i see someone named Superkiller ,all i can do is help him and all he can do is help me,theres no other way.

sound terrible and makes me wonder what happened to role playing games.

 

Well you must be nice orc thief . Cant you see dude that this people are nice and they just want to play  friendly game after they come home from hunting deers and some other friendly animals. Blah ha hah.  +10 to your post duder :)

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Meleagar

 All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.

so if I roll evil orc thief on this product ,no matter what i do ,what buttons i smash,when i see someone named Superkiller ,all i can do is help him and all he can do is help me,theres no other way.

sound terrible and makes me wonder what happened to role playing games.

 

lol, orcs. :D

In GW2, as I assume you're aware, there are no factions. You're not competing against each other in PvE, which is a good thing. The environment will kick your ass as it is... if you tried to attack someone else you'd find both of you on the ground while the local mobs tea-bag you.

There's plenty of PvP to be had if you wish. You can fully level up, one to eighty, in the WvW PvP.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by palulalula

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by palulalula

Wau! So many nice emotions and holding hands together, happy jumping on the fields and kissing  enemies. No more bad ninja boys, it is real dream and hideout for people who want to make some cyber friends. Well -BORIIINGGGG! In my life i have many friends and i don't want you to be my game pal, that is the reason why i play eve online, so i can cheat, kill,  exct..... But it is nice to see that  most of you have found heaven and peace in this game.  To OP - THIS IS GAME and if i kill or cheat anyone it is because of fun, don't take any game to serious. You know at the end you do kill in this game!! So stop with flower power crap

    If you were as manly as your posts give the illusion of being you'd be fine with taking your PvP urges to the Mists where people expect it. I have to admit... I did enjoy Eve for awhile. Got one character producing tengus, another flying them. Just got boring after awhile.

Cmon! It is not Oprah show  and i really don't want to cry on your shoulder, it is more american way of showing emotions. In few years we will have mmo's without killing if we continue this way

Yes you do. You need to admit it. You want my shoulder to cry on. Why else would you be trolling the forums of games you're not going to play if not to chase my shoulder to cry on?

 

And, to be honest, I doubt we'll ever see a Guild Wars game without some highly competitive and fun PvP.

Ah you have some highly competitive pvp in gw??? I never heard for some competition in first gw like they have in wow where you can earn really good money if you are in top arena team. So who is the best playera or best team in old gw??

Originally posted by RainBringer

Originally posted by Meleagar

 Apparently people have forgotten that a GAME is about Competition.

For PVP sure.

Keep that shit out of my PVE though.  I did the on call 24/7, world spawns up at 4am, cockblock every other guild on the server, steal every camp possible, and monopolize drops thing 8 years ago.  PVE and competition is a fallacy.  There's nothing competitive about having the most free time possible to facilitate this so called competition.

I'm a super nice guy but if the devs allow people to be dicks for even a tiny advantage, then they'll be dicks.  It's just how it is.  I'm personally done with that mindset and would like to enjoy an online game world with as many people as possible working together. 

I'll handle my super competitive side in PVP.

Originally posted by Meleagar

This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?

 The Answer to OP's question has to do with the differense between having a subscribtion model or not !

The problem with a subscribtion model is you mesure your success in what actual can keep players playing , not what actual is a good experience.

Basicly it means all experiences there is bad, feel evil or annoying, does not by them self count as bad for the develpoers. Because if they create a feeling of needing to get back to get even, a need to take revenge, a need to be better than the others around you so the bad thing doesn't happend again, they are good for the revenue. If you can get players addicted even better. And alot of the addiction comes from getting back, getting even or feeling cheated somehow and trying to make up for it. Every thing that makes people involved and dedicated to invest in a subscribtion counts as good for the developers.

Alot of the things GW2 does different is all about being able to skip all thinking in that direction totally. No subscribtion and its all about the quality of the time you have, and not about creating a need to spend more time, no matter what kind of experience it is.

And remember most of what you appriciate here is actual not new, as GW1 was created with the same philosofi, though ArenaNet was not able to take it that far , because of the limits of the design.

A lot of awesomely terrible ideas have roots in EQ and its paradigm.

Slowly but surely 1 by 1 are corrected and MMOs evolve, and those that stick to those ideas fail.

R OFL 

Game systems that reinforce antisocial behavior fit in well with games that have open PvP worlds but really have no place in these kinder, gentler MMOs with separate PvE areas. It's amazing that it took this long for a developer to find ways to make a game where it is so easy to get along with your fellow gamers.

-{ Getting along in PvE doesn't negatively impact GW2's awesome structured PvP and WvW }-

Note that you can still be fairly antisocial toward the enemy in PvP and WvW... like killing them or destroying and conquering their buildings... but that's because this kind of antisocial behavior fits in with this part of the game.

GW2 has convinced me to file a restraining order against poorly designed MMOs.

Originally posted by OldManFunk

R OFL 

 

Game systems that reinforce antisocial behavior fit in well with games that have open PvP worlds but really have no place in these kinder, gentler MMOs with separate PvE areas. It's amazing that it took this long for a developer to find ways to make a game where it is so easy to get along with your fellow gamers.

 

-{ Getting along in PvE doesn't negatively impact GW2's awesome structured PvP and WvW }-

 

Note that you can still be fairly antisocial toward the enemy in PvP and WvW... like killing them or destroying and conquering their buildings... but that's because this kind of antisocial behavior fits in with this part of the game.

 

GW2 has convinced me to file a restraining order against poorly designed MMOs.

EvE has somewhat done it with high-sec/low-sec/0,0. I aways wondered why nobody looked at that particular setup and tried to evolve it.