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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » **An Open Letter to the TESO Developers**

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59 posts found
  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  5/04/12 8:03:31 PM#21
Originally posted by zevni78
This was the best and probably only chance for a AAA sandbox mmo in the west, as it could have been argued that a themepark would alienate the core fan-base more than a usually riskier sandbox.
 
Pity.

Let me ask you a question.

 

Do you believe that it is RISKIER to bet on a well fleshed out "sandbox" MMO, or to alienate your subscriber base by copying something that has no "moveable" consumer base? 

 

In other words, is it Riskier to copy WoW than it is to innovate now? For me, I believe that it is. Risky, doesn't mean what investors and publishers seem to think. Copying WoW post RIFT or SWTOR is pretty much a gauranteed failure. EA-Bioware are doing almost anything they can to keep subscribers even if it means outright lieing about their subscription numbers.

 

Also, I'd like to take this moment to say I'm not the only one hoping that the "leaked" game informer is a joke, or a REALLY bad attempt at sarcasm. If everything in that Game Informer leak, shy of 3 faction system, is true then shame on Zenimax. What was outlined in that "Leak" is NOT an Elder Scrolls title. 

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

5/04/12 8:07:36 PM#22
Originally posted by Boreil

TES has been a Single player game set in an MMORPG world since it was created, its only right to make it a true mmorpg finally.

 
It's not right to do it like this though, can anyone who defends this project honestly say they didn’t expect something very different from this?
  Ryukan

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 710

5/04/12 8:14:42 PM#23

I had no delusions about what kind of MMORPG game they were going to make based on the ES series...and it's not the kind of game I would be interested in playing.

They should change the name so it doesn't have Elder Scrolls in it and then in the opening credits it can say "based upon the Elder Scrolls series" because that is abouty as close as it will come to the gameplay of the Elder Scrolls series.

  Rohn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3739

5/04/12 8:15:19 PM#24
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Uhwop

Agree with the OP as well.

Also the guy that said a polished Mortal online + Darkfall, only remove the darkfall.

If the leak isn't a joke, then maybe one day Starvault will get MO to the point that it's worth the sub to play, as it's design vision is actually very much ES meets MMO, only they like to talk about UO more.

 

Would be very contradictory to make an ES MMO for the fans, but completely change the design principles you've established for the series over the last 15+ years.  ES fans didn't play the games for the name, we played them for the gameplay, period.

 

I won't buy another ID game after playing rage, and I don't blame bethesda, but if they release an ES MMO and it's only ES in name only, I won't buy anything Bethesda publishes again. 

I agree with you that MO feels more like an MMO version of the Elder Scrolls series than what the leaks will have you believe.

 

However, I'd also like to point out that without a different "vision" & leadership behind StarVault they won't get anywhere with MO. The quality they accept is FAR below what it should be. Additionally, I'm not a fan of FORCED first person because, believe it or not, not everyone is a 1st person immersion player. A LOT of people grew up with Everquest, Diablo, and UO's 3rd person playstyle. 

Granted, SOME games would do amazing with 1st person dungeon crawling, but MO just isn't one of them. The perspective given in 1st person is just TOO constrictive. 

I won't even mention how bad their content patches are, number of bugs, or the low amount of work they throw into MO. I believe if it were bought by a AAA publisher that REFUSED to change the overall ruleset of MO (ie: let it continue to be a pure full-force sandbox) that it'd dominate the market.

 

However, it seems almost every MMO that has been in development since 2005 will be a WoW-clone, or damn near it. That's at least the general guestimation given by quite a few market advisors, and I'm not happy with it :(.

 

As I said in another post, despite its flaws, Mortal Online is probably the closest thing to an Elder Scrolls MMO right now.

From the info in the leak, the moment The Elder Scrolls Online launches, Mortal Online will still be the closest thing to an Elder Scrolls MMO.

ZeniMax obviously does not understand why people wanted a TES MMO in the first place.

Unless something changes with the plans for TESO, I'll be sticking with MO or something like it.  That's the kind of game I enjoy - I'd rather play an immersive but flawed sandbox of this type, than the most polished WoW-clone in the world.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1989

5/04/12 8:38:36 PM#25

I dont know any TES game that is a sandbox. You cant physically manipulate anything in these games other than killing "mobs" and gather materials which didnt qualify a game as a sandbox game the last I checked. If I could chop down trees and plant new ones on the place of those, if I could bring down the wall of a castle, if I could build a boat and set sail with it, if I could push that rock off a cliff which would roll down the hill smashing some deers on the way... And so forth. That's a sandbox game.

 

Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.

 

Anyway, I agree with the part "do not make a WoW clone please" - even if a game is a themepark it does not have to share all the game mechanics, if any, with some/any other game. Would be nice to see some original or just different design choises compared to the mainstream mmorpg pool. And sandbox elements in the game.

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

5/04/12 8:52:34 PM#26
Originally posted by Kuinn

I dont know any TES game that is a sandbox. You cant physically manipulate anything in these games other than killing "mobs" and gather materials which didnt qualify a game as a sandbox game the last I checked. If I could chop down trees and plant new ones on the place of those, if I could bring down the wall of a castle, if I could build a boat and set sail with it, if I could push that rock off a cliff which would roll down the hill smashing some deers on the way... And so forth. That's a sandbox game.

 

Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.

 

Anyway, I agree with the part "do not make a WoW clone please" - even if a game is a themepark it does not have to share all the game mechanics, if any, with some/any other game. Would be nice to see some original or just different design choises compared to the mainstream mmorpg pool. And sandbox elements in the game.

No, thats only a part of what makes a Sandbox game.

Why is it that now-a-days everyone assumes that for a game to be Sandbox you must manipulate the enviroment somehow?

Sandbox also mean how you can manipulate and form your character and what they do.

Sandbox means that you arent stuck as a Mage or Warrior or Rogue or whatever for life.

You could start the game as a resource gatherer, then become a crafter, then learn to fight with weapons and eventually magic. or however you choose to live.

 

It really comes down to choice. What direction do you want to go today.

In a game like SWTOR, my choice pretty much ends once I select my character and class.

Everything from there on is directed and scripted for me with very little choice left up to me.

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  SlyLoK

Elite Member

Joined: 7/04/08
Posts: 962

5/04/12 9:04:30 PM#27

I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.

I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.

  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1989

5/04/12 9:06:29 PM#28
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by Kuinn

I dont know any TES game that is a sandbox. You cant physically manipulate anything in these games other than killing "mobs" and gather materials which didnt qualify a game as a sandbox game the last I checked. If I could chop down trees and plant new ones on the place of those, if I could bring down the wall of a castle, if I could build a boat and set sail with it, if I could push that rock off a cliff which would roll down the hill smashing some deers on the way... And so forth. That's a sandbox game.

 

Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.

 

Anyway, I agree with the part "do not make a WoW clone please" - even if a game is a themepark it does not have to share all the game mechanics, if any, with some/any other game. Would be nice to see some original or just different design choises compared to the mainstream mmorpg pool. And sandbox elements in the game.

No, thats only a part of what makes a Sandbox game.

Why is it that now-a-days everyone assumes that for a game to be Sandbox you must manipulate the enviroment somehow?

Sandbox also mean how you can manipulate and form your character and what they do.

Sandbox means that you arent stuck as a Mage or Warrior or Rogue or whatever for life.

You could start the game as a resource gatherer, then become a crafter, then learn to fight with weapons and eventually magic. or however you choose to live.

 

It really comes down to choice. What direction do you want to go today.

In a game like SWTOR, my choice pretty much ends once I select my character and class.

Everything from there on is directed and scripted for me with very little choice left up to me.

 

Well yeah, you're right about the freeform progression after thinking about it. Though when I imagine about a sandbox first thing to pop in my mind is manipulating the sand, which in these games are the environment, structures etc. I dont feel that a game is a sandbox game if it only has a freeform char progression as the sandbox feature. That would make TSW a sandbox game too but since every zone and the content in those zones are pre-determined, I feel it's quite far off being an actual sandbox game.

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

5/04/12 9:08:05 PM#29

Just to chime in on this sandbox discussion. In every TES game I've played (Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim), you can move pretty much any object in game, corps and all. You can kill others in the game, and the effects are permanent (at least in Morrowind, it even reccomended you to restore a previous save if you killed someone in the main storyline). In that sense, you are manipulating the environment, leaving your prescence on the gameworld. That and the free roaming nature of the games make it a sandbox to me. You don't need to literally effect the landscape, like planting trees and moving dirt, to call a game sandbox. My opinion, of course. 

  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1989

5/04/12 9:11:54 PM#30
Originally posted by SlyLoK

I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.

I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.

 

I think freeform character progression suits a singleplayer game just fine, but not so much a multiplayer game. In multiplayer game you have the pressure of the community to be as powerful or good as possible, which makes many gamers to roll the flavour of the month build/class, and that's not very fun imo or immersive to see all of those spellcasters to turn into hulking berserkers now that the zerker abilities got buffed.

 

In singleplayer game you can make the kind of build you want without anyone telling you how much it sucks and why they wont take you into a group if you run with a build like that, hence fixed classes works a bit better in multiplayer games imo.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1652

5/04/12 9:12:59 PM#31
Originally posted by Kuinn

 

Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.

 

 You defined what sandbox play is, and why people used to mod them into games or why some games came with the option to play in a sandbox mode.

The ability to "manipulate physically" anything in the world came well after sandbox play already existed.  Sandbox did not start with games that let you build stuff, it started with people moding existing games and developers providing a gameplay mode that let you run around in a game with unlimitted/ or near unlimitted access to content, but not having to actually complete the game.

Some games had a feature called god mode.  Others had one called sandbox mode.  It's were the entire idea came from.  It never had anything to do with building anything. 

Sim city is the earliest game I can think of that I could build in, it isn't, nor has it ever been called, a sandbox.  It's an open-ended strategy game.  UO was the first game I ever saw that you could build a house in.  I played RPG well before UO ever came out, with a sandbox mode enabled. 

UO didn't invent the sandbox feature. 

One of the Baldurs gate games had a hack or option to enable sandbox mode.  It's the only nonobscure game I can remeber that was popular that I could do that with, it's was also why I loved those games so much.  It just went on forever and didn't end; the only way an RPG should be playable. 

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1133

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

5/04/12 9:13:19 PM#32

Dear Bethesda and ESO Team:

 

Thank you for being the first medieval fantasy mmorpg project to have the courage and common sense to give us medieval art in our mmo, with no anime or cartoony animation in a THREE faction PvP setting.

 

I cannot thank you enough. 

  Eladi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/23/06
Posts: 1051

5/04/12 9:16:14 PM#33

Dear everyone,

 

instead of random post here on mmorpg.com how about you actualy sent it to the ZediSuits, they even got a webpage for that stuff, then you can come here and tell folks what you did sent to them and point other the way tothe website.

 

see here : http://www.zenimax.com/contact.php : a direct url to thier contact form. make them crazy. I dit sent a WTF are you thinking "note" perhaps they wake up ;)

  LizardEgypt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/09
Posts: 359

Hmm ?

5/04/12 9:17:20 PM#34
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by Kuinn

 

Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.

 

 You defined what sandbox play is, and why people used to mod them into games or why some games came with the option to play in a sandbox mode.

The ability to "manipulate physically" anything in the world came well after sandbox play already existed.  Sandbox did not start with games that let you build stuff, it started with people moding existing games and developers providing a gameplay mode that let you run around in a game with unlimitted/ or near unlimitted access to content, but not having to actually complete the game.

Some games had a feature called god mode.  Others had one called sandbox mode.  It's were the entire idea came from.  It never had anything to do with building anything. 

Sim city is the earliest game I can think of that I could build in, it isn't, nor has it ever been called, a sandbox.  It's an open-ended strategy game.  UO was the first game I ever saw that you could build a house in.  I played RPG well before UO ever came out, with a sandbox mode enabled. 

UO didn't invent the sandbox feature. 

One of the Baldurs gate games had a hack or option to enable sandbox mode.  It's the only nonobscure game I can remeber that was popular that I could do that with, it's was also why I loved those games so much.  It just went on forever and didn't end; the only way an RPG should be playable. 

The guy thinks Minecraft when he hears sandbox

Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  toddze

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 2196

I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.

5/04/12 9:20:29 PM#35
Originally posted by Eladi

Dear everyone,

 

instead of random post here on mmorpg.com how about you actualy sent it to the ZediSuits, they even got a webpage for that stuff, then you can come here and tell folks what you did sent to them and point other the way tothe website.

 

see here : http://www.zenimax.com/contact.php : a direct url to thier contact form. make them crazy. I dit sent a WTF are you thinking "note" perhaps they wake up ;)

thank you for the website, i am going to put it in my sig so others can go voice their opinions

 

Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI

  Sinaku

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 463

5/04/12 9:21:11 PM#36

I agree with the OP. So far with the very little information somewhat leaking out, it isn't boding well for my taste and for what I love the ES series for.

  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1989

5/04/12 9:27:19 PM#37
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by Kuinn

 

Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.

 

 You defined what sandbox play is, and why people used to mod them into games or why some games came with the option to play in a sandbox mode.

The ability to "manipulate physically" anything in the world came well after sandbox play already existed.  Sandbox did not start with games that let you build stuff, it started with people moding existing games and developers providing a gameplay mode that let you run around in a game with unlimitted/ or near unlimitted access to content, but not having to actually complete the game.

 

All I know is that when kids play at their sandboxes they build and destroy sandcastles. If you call game a sandbox game, it gives the same impression to me, that you can shape or affect something in the game physically (maybe it's just me).

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  5/04/12 9:29:19 PM#38
Originally posted by Comaf

Dear Bethesda and ESO Team:

 

Thank you for being the first medieval fantasy mmorpg project to have the courage and common sense to give us medieval art in our mmo, with no anime or cartoony animation in a THREE faction PvP setting.

 

I cannot thank you enough. 

You haven't seen what the game looks like yet. If you're referring to the supposedly "leaked" screenshots of the game, what are you talking about? The "Leaked" screenshots look like SWTOR. Unless you're simply "assuming" what the game looks like based on the TES franchise?

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  Thorqemada

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/30/04
Posts: 1202

5/04/12 9:34:34 PM#39

The confusing part about this game is:
Will it be Daoc2 instead of Elder Scrolls Online 1 or what ???

I myself ever will like a good Daoc2 but feel they probably miss a chance here cutting the Elder Scrolls Virtual World Part that makes the flair of the games.

"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
MWO Machinima - Revival (Clan Invasion): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saheVNMp7qQ

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1652

5/04/12 9:39:04 PM#40
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by SlyLoK

I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.

I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.

 

I think freeform character progression suits a singleplayer game just fine, but not so much a multiplayer game. In multiplayer game you have the pressure of the community to be as powerful or good as possible, which makes many gamers to roll the flavour of the month build/class, and that's not very fun imo or immersive to see all of those spellcasters to turn into hulking berserkers now that the zerker abilities got buffed.

 

In singleplayer game you can make the kind of build you want without anyone telling you how much it sucks and why they wont take you into a group if you run with a build like that, hence fixed classes works a bit better in multiplayer games imo.

 But, every single class and level based game I played had balance issues and FotM classes and builds.

Rift was the last themepark I played for any real length of time. 

Was warriors, then rogues, then mages, then clerics and then back to warriors again.

In vanilla wow I could pvp against level 60 with my hunter at level 45.  I could kite everyone until and kill them slowly.  Then it was shaman, then it was rogues, then it was mages, then it was clerics, etc. etc. 

EQ, EQ2, L2, CoH, and on and on and on. 

There is no such thing as a balanced MMO, it's not possible, and developers know it's not possible.  That's why pretty much every game has this cycle of nerfs and buffs. 

 

I remember I couldn't raid with my hunter in WoW.  Already had a couple.  I had to roll a mage in order to raid with my guild at one point.  Again, class based, or freeform progression doesn't change a problem that exists in all MMO's.  In class based ones it's usually about playing a NEEDED build in order to make sure you can group stuff.  It's one of the big questions when people start in a new MMO, "what class is need most?"  It's always been that way.  Tanks and healers are always the easiest class to get in a group with, dps classes are always harder.  I can Q as a tank, or dps in Rfit, if I don't Q as a tank I would sit for up to an hour waiting to do a dungeon, Q as a tank and it would take only a minute or two.  Was like that with every single class that gave me an option to either heal or tank and dps.  I played every role in Rift to 50, and raided with a mage and a cleric.

The gimped class problem was solved a long time ago by just letting people retrain skills.  It's also possible to dummy proof a freeform system by not making overly complex (Anarchy online), and making sure that the skills you would take will be viable to your class. 

Besides that, ES character progression is impossible to gimp yourself.  It's entirely use based, with only spells being purshased; you couldn't gimp yourself with skyrims skill set up.  You can put caps on the amount of skills you can learn to avoid the godlike issue.  You could do like MO does and allow the unlearning of skills if you want to switch from 2 handed swords to a one handed mace.  You can level out damage so that your choice in weapons and magic come down to style prefernce. 

 

There are always going to be problems in any MMO.  It's not inherent to any one way of doing things.  It's just the nature of being huge online games with more unknown variables then the devs can ever solve.  If you can't do it because it can't be balanced, then the entire genre should have been scrapped a long time ago.

 

BTW.  Meridian 59.  First graphcal MMO.  Came out 17 years ago.  Still running today.  Guess how it's played.  Not like WoW.

 

PS: spelling and gramatical errors just gets worse and worse.  hand is like a dead fish.

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