Originally posted by Atlan99

Interesting post by Valatar on the Guild Wars 2 Beta Forums. He breaks down some of the hidden costs of GW2.

 

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gem/The-Gem-Store-s-Grim-Math-or-Why-GW2-may-cost-220/page/1#post115334

 

 

Valatar

Welcome to Guild Wars 2, new player! We’re the fun new game where you don’t pay a monthly fee to play! But you do realize of course that we need money to keep up our servers and update the game, so there are a few modest cash store items to help cover our costs. But it’s probably nothing that you actually need, so don’t pay any attention to it!

How do you like the classes? They’re all great fun, aren’t they? We bet you’d like to play them all! But not so fast, you only have five character slots. If you want the other three, you’ll just need to make a one-time payment in the cash shop to unlock them. It’s only 800 gems per slot, so for only 2400 gems you’ll be on your way!

What’s that, adventurer? Your bags are full? Why shucks, have we got a deal for you! You have seven bag slots, but we locked three of them so you’d have room to grow! For an insignificant 400 gems, you can unlock one bag slot on one character. Of course, if you have eight characters, that’s twenty-four slots, but hey, what’s a little 9600 gems between friends for the luxury of being able to carry things?

Oh, you wanted to actually be able to store things? Like, in a bank? Well other MMOGs make you spend nasty gold to have more than 30 bank slots, but not us! You can just buy them with gems! We’ve helped you out by making the sky the limit and locked a whopping seven bank expansions at 600 gems each, so you can feel extra accomplished when you pull out your credit card to pay for the 4200 gems for that.

tl;dr:
At the current listed rates, you have to pay 16,200 gems to have eight characters with unlocked inventory and bank slots in GW2. With the assumption that the conversion rate is $1=100 gems, that’s $162 dollars above and beyond the box cost of the game. Edit: The actual gem price is believed to be $5=400 gems, which makes the cost $202.50 for those 16200 gems. A year’s subscription to WoW is $156 if purchased in six-month blocks, making it ironically cheaper to play a year of WoW than a year of GW2.

Bear in mind that I’m ignoring vanity items, convenience items, and keys in this tally. Those are all entirely optional, and a player can take or leave those without any particular penalty. I’m focusing entirely on the one universal constant of any MMOG: storage. It’s the thing that is indisputably vital for every player, that nobody can afford to be without, and everybody absolutely requires. Anyone who doesn’t purchase bag and bank space is going to be regretting it, deeply and often. I don’t consider it optional, and doubt that anyone with any length of experience in online games would disagree with me on that.

There needs to be an alternative option to gems for purchasing in-game storage. There’s no telling what the gold value of gems will be after the game’s release, but if the beta weekend’s average around 20 silver per gem holds true, it will cost 120 gold per bank expansion and 80 gold per bag slot, which are fairly ridiculous amounts. Edit: My numbers for the silver price for gems was incorrect, see below.

Alternatively, making the bag slots an account-wide purchase rather than a per-character purchase would save the eight-character player 8400 gems, making the grand total a much more reasonable sum.

Disclaimer:
All of this hinges on beta test gem prices for cash shop items, and involves an assumption on the cash price for gems. Either of those two things may change before release. My goal in bringing this to peoples’ attention is not to incite panicked nerd rage, but to make people aware of the potential cash cost in GW2’s gem store model of business, and the fact that it may be no less expensive than other games with monthly fees.

I don't know what you damn people's problem is with the in game gem shop is.  It is no different than buying the rest of the chest panes in gw1 from their store or buying costumes from their store or any different than buying more character slots from their store for GW1, they just made it a little easier to purchase things for gw2 with the in game gem shop . And you ignorant noobs seem to forget you don't have to spend a damn dime of real money if you don't want to.. You can use in game gold to get what gems you need.  You people need to do your freakin research before spouting off at the mouth and pull head from arse. 

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Eir_S

You're right. I didn't say that.

If someone wasn't aware of the costs, they would be hidden.  Thus hidden costs.

You didn't say something I quoted you as saying from your first post?  I'm done here.

No. Apparently you didn't read the whole post. That's ok. I've noticed that this is fairly common on these forums.

Ok, Mr. Passive Aggressive.

W...T...F.

You quoted the post he posted here. Then he told you that you didn't read the whole thing because they weren't his words. 

W... T... F.

Is he trying to be slippery or something? Because it's just coming off as awful.

Originally posted by colddog04

W...T...F.

 You quoted the post he posted here. Then he told you that you didn't read the whole thing because they weren't his words. 

 W... T... F.

 Is he trying to be slippery or something? Because it's just coming off as awful.

Try reading the whole post. In particular the  first few sentences at the top. I'm sure it will come to you.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by colddog04

W...T...F.

 You quoted the post he posted here. Then he told you that you didn't read the whole thing because they weren't his words. 

 W... T... F.

 Is he trying to be slippery or something? Because it's just coming off as awful.

Try reading the whole post. In particular the  first few sentences at the top. I'm sure it will come to you.

Try reading my post. Particularly the part in red.

I'm sure it will come to you.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Atlan99

Try reading my post. Particularly the part in red.

 

I'm sure it will come to you.

How come you are the only poster on the forums that I have to literally explain everything to?

I mean literally draw a diagram. The poster I responded to got it. Yet somehow you miss it.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Atlan99

Try reading my post. Particularly the part in red.

 

I'm sure it will come to you.

How come you are the only poster on the forums that I have to literally explain everything to?

I mean literally draw a diagram. The poster I responded to got it. Yet somehow you miss it.

You resort to attacks the second you get caught being silly. You attempted to call me out on not reading your post, and then you got caught not reading my post. Now you are attacking my character by acting like you have to explain something.

You are embarrassing yourself.

Originally posted by colddog04

 

You resort to attackd the second you get caught being silly. You attempted to call me out on not reading your post, and then you got caught not reading my post. Now you are attacking my character by acting like you have to explain something.

 

You are embarrassing yourself.

Not really. I'm actually quite shocked that you didn't understand my response. Again I'm at a loss like the last thread you argued with me forever in. The one where I had to lead you to the logical conclusion by asking you questions. It took about 10 posts to get you to finally admit it. 

It seems like I have to explain things to you multiple times, when most people would get it the first time and move on. It's frustrating more anything.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by colddog04

 

You resort to attackd the second you get caught being silly. You attempted to call me out on not reading your post, and then you got caught not reading my post. Now you are attacking my character by acting like you have to explain something.

 

You are embarrassing yourself.

Not really. I'm actually quite shocked that you didn't understand my response. Again I'm at a loss like the last thread you argued with me forever in. The one where I had to lead you to the logical conclusion by askin you questions. It took about 10 posts to get you to finally admit it. 

It seems like I have to explain things to you multiple times, when most people would get the first time and move on. It's frustrating more anything.

cool

Originally posted by Atlan99

Interesting post by Valatar on the Guild Wars 2 Beta Forums. He breaks down some of the hidden costs of GW2.

 

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gem/The-Gem-Store-s-Grim-Math-or-Why-GW2-may-cost-220/page/1#post115334

 

 

Valatar

Welcome to Guild Wars 2, new player! We’re the fun new game where you don’t pay a monthly fee to play! But you do realize of course that we need money to keep up our servers and update the game, so there are a few modest cash store items to help cover our costs. But it’s probably nothing that you actually need, so don’t pay any attention to it!

How do you like the classes? They’re all great fun, aren’t they? We bet you’d like to play them all! But not so fast, you only have five character slots. If you want the other three, you’ll just need to make a one-time payment in the cash shop to unlock them. It’s only 800 gems per slot, so for only 2400 gems you’ll be on your way!

What’s that, adventurer? Your bags are full? Why shucks, have we got a deal for you! You have seven bag slots, but we locked three of them so you’d have room to grow! For an insignificant 400 gems, you can unlock one bag slot on one character. Of course, if you have eight characters, that’s twenty-four slots, but hey, what’s a little 9600 gems between friends for the luxury of being able to carry things?

Oh, you wanted to actually be able to store things? Like, in a bank? Well other MMOGs make you spend nasty gold to have more than 30 bank slots, but not us! You can just buy them with gems! We’ve helped you out by making the sky the limit and locked a whopping seven bank expansions at 600 gems each, so you can feel extra accomplished when you pull out your credit card to pay for the 4200 gems for that.

tl;dr:
At the current listed rates, you have to pay 16,200 gems to have eight characters with unlocked inventory and bank slots in GW2. With the assumption that the conversion rate is $1=100 gems, that’s $162 dollars above and beyond the box cost of the game. Edit: The actual gem price is believed to be $5=400 gems, which makes the cost $202.50 for those 16200 gems. A year’s subscription to WoW is $156 if purchased in six-month blocks, making it ironically cheaper to play a year of WoW than a year of GW2.

Bear in mind that I’m ignoring vanity items, convenience items, and keys in this tally. Those are all entirely optional, and a player can take or leave those without any particular penalty. I’m focusing entirely on the one universal constant of any MMOG: storage. It’s the thing that is indisputably vital for every player, that nobody can afford to be without, and everybody absolutely requires. Anyone who doesn’t purchase bag and bank space is going to be regretting it, deeply and often. I don’t consider it optional, and doubt that anyone with any length of experience in online games would disagree with me on that.

There needs to be an alternative option to gems for purchasing in-game storage. There’s no telling what the gold value of gems will be after the game’s release, but if the beta weekend’s average around 20 silver per gem holds true, it will cost 120 gold per bank expansion and 80 gold per bag slot, which are fairly ridiculous amounts. Edit: My numbers for the silver price for gems was incorrect, see below.

Alternatively, making the bag slots an account-wide purchase rather than a per-character purchase would save the eight-character player 8400 gems, making the grand total a much more reasonable sum.

Disclaimer:
All of this hinges on beta test gem prices for cash shop items, and involves an assumption on the cash price for gems. Either of those two things may change before release. My goal in bringing this to peoples’ attention is not to incite panicked nerd rage, but to make people aware of the potential cash cost in GW2’s gem store model of business, and the fact that it may be no less expensive than other games with monthly fees.

Does one not need to buy the box to play WoW, or is that included in the $156 price tag quoted here ?

Does one need to buy all of the WoW expansions in order to access all of the game's content ?

Does WoW allow for unlimited bag space and an unlimited number of characters ?

Note that I ask these questions because I am not sufficiently familiar with WoW to answer them for myself and they are all important to your comparison.

Now, can one buy the WoW box and play for as long as one wants without any additional payment ?

Does one get access to everything that can be had in WoW for the basic purchase of the game ?

Ultimately of course one can choose spend more than the base cost of the game on GW2. The point is that you don't have to. Comparing the cost of the bare minimum to play WoW to the cost of buying extras and the like on top of the cost of the GW2 box is a bit odd.

I mean a  Civic with a million music downloads for the sound system costs much more than a Ferrari so people should keep in mind that Driving a Honda might cost more than they think.

To me, there really is nothing hidden about the costs. If I wanted to play all 8 classes, and I like all enough so I'd want to keep on playing them, then I really have no problem with paying extra for 3 more character slots if the game is truely that fantastic. The bag space and the need to have those on all 8 characters is a bit of a stretch. If you don't mind paying for the convenience then you could do that. There is the possibility that item drops will be so varied and that the game will fill up your inventory so fast that not having the extra space would be a real pain, but that's not a sure thing to say the least.

It's possible that having 8 characters with maximum inventory and bank space would cost 16200 gems. I trust that the math is good and the prices were those of the beta. But in the F2P game I'm playing now, if you wanted all that, then it would cost you a LOT more. It could even cost significantly more on one character in a F2P game than on all 8 in GW2 under the assumed price. Of course the F2P game has no box price. But, from where I'm coming, I won't be deluded into thinking I actually need that on every single character very quickly, even if relatively speaking it's really still a great bargain.

The WoW pricing reference is rather silly since after your year of WoW you're still faced with the option to either quit or keep on playing and of course keep on paying.

Server and bandwidth costs are barely worth talking about, certainly nothing even remotely close to $15 a month per player. And the updates to the game will come through expansions, that you either pay for if you like them, and that you don't pay for when you don't. Not buying the expansion does not mean you have to stop playing the game. Unlike not paying the sub, which would suspend your story until you choose to p(l)ay again.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

You are on a crusade against the cash shop and you pull "facts" out of thin air to support your disliking for that feature, it's obvious from your post history. Read the other part of my post, the one you didn't quote, and you'll see that it's definitely not that bad. But of course, spreading doomsday predictions about the shop is more fun that using real facts which prove the shop isn't that bad, don't you think? ;-)

PS: and I was one of the most skeptical about the cash shop before experiencing it myself, it's not like I'm a cash shop fanboi or something like that. But unless ANet drastically changes it before release, the shop as is it now is really no big deal.

What facts have I pulled out of thin air in this thread?

 Love how you added "in this thread" to that question, brought a smile to my face...

Something that just occured to me about the cost comparison between WoW ($156 ?) and GW2:

Any GW2 purchase retains its utility potentially indefinitely without additional cost. It doesn't go away at the end of a year as your WoW subscription does if you don't continue to pay. So a more apt comparison would be to compare such purchases to a WoW subscription measured over the life of the game. WoW is coming up on its eighth anniversary right ? So the comparison would have to be the GW cost vs approximately $1,200+ dollars for WoW.

Then again this is comparing GW2 + the cost of micro-transaction extras to just the basic subscription fees for WoW. It shouldnt be too terribly difficult to further jack up the cost for WoW with a short trip to its own MT shop...

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Something that just occured to me about the cost comparison between WoW ($156 ?) and GW2:

Any GW2 purchase retains its utility potentially indefinitely without additional cost. It doesn't go away at the end of a year as your WoW subscription does if you don't continue to pay. So a more apt comparison would be to compare such purchases to a WoW subscription measured over the life of the game. WoW is coming up on its eighth anniversary right ? So the comparison would have to be the GW cost vs approximately $1,200+ dollars for WoW.

Then again this is comparing GW2 + the cost of micro-transaction extras to just the basic subscription fees for WoW. It shouldnt be too terribly difficult to further jack up the cost for WoW with a short trip to its own MT shop...

never understimate player acquisitiveness, im sure if Blizzard ever need a quick $20 million, they can always knock out a new improved sparkly pony..  if Arenanet are not offering something similar.. its because they havent got around to it yet

Originally posted by alancode

This is funny, everyone getting so defensive over their baby. It will be more expensive. If you decide to buy keys, karma boost, exp boost, hats, pets, bank slots, bag slots, character slots...

 

It will be more expensive than a sub based game, for the basic things. You get all of this and MORE for 15 a month..or you pay one small 4 dollar fee, 10 times a month to buy what you end up wanting. 

 

If you do not purchase anything..than good for you..I will have an advantage over you in every way. 

I'm buying, Karma boosts, EXP boosts, Bag slots, Bank slots, special keys to open boxes for loot and anything else that gives me an advantage. 

You're forgetting something critical in GW2 however.  You're not competing with me. I'll repeat that.

You're not competing with me.

GW2 is built at it's core on player cooperation at the entire server level. As such, anything you choose to buy to enhance your playing experience will have no affect on me whatsoever. You can't get to nodes faster than me and take the resources. You can't beat me to mobs and claim all the kills. Maybe, just maybe, you can beat me to level 80. If I even notice, I'll offer a note of congrats and keep on playing, unaffected. What you're mistaking as an "advantage" is simply things to add optional conveniences that you choose to add. I'll probably get a bag slot or three, maybe some minipets for the kids if they want them, who knows? But whatever I get, it'll have no affect on your gameplay whatsoever, so make your own choices and have your own fun.

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Something that just occured to me about the cost comparison between WoW ($156 ?) and GW2:

Any GW2 purchase retains its utility potentially indefinitely without additional cost. It doesn't go away at the end of a year as your WoW subscription does if you don't continue to pay. So a more apt comparison would be to compare such purchases to a WoW subscription measured over the life of the game. WoW is coming up on its eighth anniversary right ? So the comparison would have to be the GW cost vs approximately $1,200+ dollars for WoW.

Then again this is comparing GW2 + the cost of micro-transaction extras to just the basic subscription fees for WoW. It shouldnt be too terribly difficult to further jack up the cost for WoW with a short trip to its own MT shop...

never understimate player acquisitiveness, im sure if Blizzard ever need a quick $20 million, they can always knock out a new improved sparkly pony..  if Arenanet are not offering something similar.. its because they havent got around to it yet

I agree.

A company putting out a product that people want to buy is a good thing in my opinion. I am happy to have options as a consumer and am more than happy to see a company that provides me with a service that I enjoy making a profit. Of course I reserve the right to decide for myself whether or not a particular product is worth the asking price (or buying at all).

But a mount purchased for WoW is paid for on top of a sub fee and access to it is lost if one does not continue to pay the sub fee. I just found it odd that the OP would skew his comparison so heavily. 

If you people think this game was made not to make money some how you are mistaken.  The original purchase of the game will not cover 2 months of server cost, You know there will be the "cool" things added to the game that people will buy with real cash.  All the people saying they can just play for free and still compete might be able to I guess, but how in the hell will this game stay afloat without cash coming into Anet?

I guess some of you are relying on other peoples ability to afford to buy the "cool" stuff to keep the game going for awhile.

Originally posted by OldMMOGamer

If you people think this game was made not to make money some how you are mistaken.  The original purchase of the game will not cover 2 months of server cost, You know there will be the "cool" things added to the game that people will buy with real cash.  All the people saying they can just play for free and still compete might be able to I guess, but how in the hell will this game stay afloat without cash coming into Anet?

I guess some of you are relying on other peoples ability to afford to buy the "cool" stuff to keep the game going for awhile.

Its obvious they will sell advantage items in the CS that enough players will think they need or want. They are not planning to run the servers as a charity. And if later they think they need higher profit they will add more items.

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by OldMMOGamer

If you people think this game was made not to make money some how you are mistaken.  The original purchase of the game will not cover 2 months of server cost, You know there will be the "cool" things added to the game that people will buy with real cash.  All the people saying they can just play for free and still compete might be able to I guess, but how in the hell will this game stay afloat without cash coming into Anet?

I guess some of you are relying on other peoples ability to afford to buy the "cool" stuff to keep the game going for awhile.

Its obvious they will sell advantage items in the CS that enough players will think they need or want. They are not planning to run the servers as a charity. And if later they think they need higher profit they will add more items.

You'll have to define "advantage" in a game where players aren't competing with each other. There's nothing you can buy that gives you an advantage over me or affects my gameplay, period. Even if you manage to level faster, you have no affect on me at all.

People need to keep this in mind, it's a big part of the big picture.