Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Larsa

Originally posted by Yamota

...

See my post above. The game is not quest driven, you cannot get much exp from quests and only some items and services are received from quests.

It is partly loot driven but there is also craftable components which can be put together to produce powerful items. So it is definetely not what I would call loot driven, specially not on the PvP server where you can drop those which you got from loot where as some craftable items are not droppable.

Combat centric? Well, aren't most MMO's combat centric? I don't see how it is any more combat centric on most of the games on your list. Beside, what has that got to do with sandbox?

Players can create houses, mansions and castles which can be put in the world which is completely non instanced and massive. The game play is non-linear and anyone can go anywhere and with proper buffs a low skilled character can kill a much higher skilled character.

Please, Yamota.

Quests? Here is the list of quests in Asheron's Call, all quests I checked reward the player with items: http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Quests. It's a long, long list.

Loot driven? Completely so. All things enter the game world through either loot drops or quest rewards. All resources used for crafting come from either quest rewards or loot drops that are salvaged by players. There is no such thing as mining, harvesting, fishing, farming, woodcutting in Asheron's Call. Fine, you don't call that loot driven, thus we disagree on that.

Just as an example, here is the list of Upper Body armour: http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Upper_Body_Armor. Most of it are quest rewards and items purchased from NPCs. Few are crafted and the ones that are crafted need loot drops as material. I reckon that won't be different for other item categories.

Concerning player housing, according to http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Housing players don't create houses, they buy houses for in-game curreny, writs and trophies. Writs and trophies are quest rewards and loot-drops respectively.

From what I can see Asheron's call is about as sandbox as LotRO or GW2, thus not at all. It's an old-school themepark. And how exactly change players the game world in Asheron's Call? I couldn't find anything about that on the Asheron's Call wiki here: http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Home

You have no idea what you are talking about, and considering you havent even played the game that is not surprising, but fine it is your list. But I played Asheron's Call for 3-4 years and it is the best sandbox experience I have ever had.

It is completely not linear, contrary to GW 2 and other which you try to equate AC too, it is purely skill based and the level number is just a measurement of the amount of exp you have. A low exp player can go to anywhere in the world and if he got the skills for it, he can thrive.

Just because you can't harvest and craft the way you see it does not make it a ThemePark, you have no clue what you are talking about. Also quests, who the hell says quests goes against sandbox concepts, that is your construct. And you get very little exp from the quests so just because there are lots of them does not mean they drive your progression, they do not.

That you even have the gall to classify it as a "ThemePark" when the therm was not even invented and based on reading on some wiki sites just shows your ignorance. Asheron's Call has given me the most non-linear and open ended game play of any MMO to date beside UO, and I have played a lot of them. So you dont have the qualifications to label this as not sandbox as your definition of it seems to be narrow and deluded. Non quest based, non combat based is NOT what defines a sandbox, they have nothing to do with it, like this thread.

Yeah, AC was a great sandbox game.  It'll always be my favorite MMORPG.

Asheron's Call in it's current form, I wouldn't call a sandbox. I returned a few months back to see what has changed, was introduced with the new beginners quest hub, and promptly unsubbed. It seems that it has gone the route of heavy quest focus, which saddens me.

However, AC in it's old form, (at least up until Throne of Destiny) I would say is very much a sandbox. Quests felt epic, they weren't a simple go here, kill these guys, come back for some coin. For example, if anyone remembers the Soll Key Quests (can't remember for sure if that's the name) it was a quest that a higher level character would get to create a new sword, but the keys needed to create this sword were only available in dungeons that were for low levels only. It caused patrons to utilize their vassals to get the keys for them and then combine them for the sword along with other various items. A majority of the quests were very complex, and the reward was a cool item sure... but not an item that was 100% necessary.

As far as the harvesting goes, sure... all crafting components are loot drops, but they pretty much will drop off anything. You go out and kill stuff and hope you get something you need. No different than going out to an area, and hoping you see a handful of Tin veins in the distance for you to whack at with your pickaxe (IMO).

I played AC for probably 3 years and only completed a handful of quests. Then, just for a change of pace, I went back and did a bunch of the quests I missed with my allegiance. Most of them took all night to complete.

Now, I don't know what the higher levels in AC are like now... but like I said, AC in it's current form, not a sandbox. But back in the day, I would say 110% it was a sandbox.

woo hoo for nerd arguments!

Originally posted by sirphobos

I think of Everquest and Asheron's Call as "old school themeparks" in that they are less linear and give the player a lot more freedom than their modern counterparts like WoW, SWTOR, etc, but they are still themeparks if you ask me.

Of course, these are just words that gamers have made up and have no official dictionary definition (at least how we're using them).

ThemePark was coined right after WoW and is pretty clear in it's definition. Like a real ThemePark you really dont have an open ended playground but rather go from ride to ride. I.e. quest hub to quest hub or level bracketted zone to level bracketted zone.

EQ is somewhat like that, and what was WoW was based on, Asheron's Call was definetely NOT. There are no rides, i.e. quest hubs or level bracketted zones, there are areas which has tougher mobs but that is the same in any MMO. However there is nothing preventing a low level character to go to a high level zone and be successful, it all depends on your skills as a player and your character and I repeteadly did that when I played the game.

More over the world is huge and seamless with only the dungeons being connected by portals. Then finally there are no classes and the skill system is completely open. Meaning you can pick a magic school and sword skill if you want. AC has none of the hallmarks of a ThemePark and is definetely not one, nor has it ever been. It is less linear than games like Fallen Earth for instance.

Originally posted by doyomaster

Asheron's Call in it's current form, I wouldn't call a sandbox. I returned a few months back to see what has changed, was introduced with the new beginners quest hub, and promptly unsubbed. It seems that it has gone the route of heavy quest focus, which saddens me.

However, AC in it's old form, (at least up until Throne of Destiny) I would say is very much a sandbox. Quests felt epic, they weren't a simple go here, kill these guys, come back for some coin. For example, if anyone remembers the Soll Key Quests (can't remember for sure if that's the name) it was a quest that a higher level character would get to create a new sword, but the keys needed to create this sword were only available in dungeons that were for low levels only. It caused patrons to utilize their vassals to get the keys for them and then combine them for the sword along with other various items. A majority of the quests were very complex, and the reward was a cool item sure... but not an item that was 100% necessary.

As far as the harvesting goes, sure... all crafting components are loot drops, but they pretty much will drop off anything. You go out and kill stuff and hope you get something you need. No different than going out to an area, and hoping you see a handful of Tin veins in the distance for you to whack at with your pickaxe (IMO).

I played AC for probably 3 years and only completed a handful of quests. Then, just for a change of pace, I went back and did a bunch of the quests I missed with my allegiance. Most of them took all night to complete.

Now, I don't know what the higher levels in AC are like now... but like I said, AC in it's current form, not a sandbox. But back in the day, I would say 110% it was a sandbox.

woo hoo for nerd arguments!

You may be right as I haven't played AC in a couple of years but how it was when it was fairly new. It may have been changed now, I don't know. But keep in mind that the existence of quests does not neccessarily make it a ThemePark. A ThemePark is where the players are funneled from quest hub to quest hub, having quests in an open, free roaming world is definetely not a ThemePark. If it was then Fallen Earth would be one and even Skyrim.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by sirphobos

I think of Everquest and Asheron's Call as "old school themeparks" in that they are less linear and give the player a lot more freedom than their modern counterparts like WoW, SWTOR, etc, but they are still themeparks if you ask me.

Of course, these are just words that gamers have made up and have no official dictionary definition (at least how we're using them).

ThemePark was coined right after WoW and is pretty clear in it's definition. Like a real ThemePark you really dont have an open ended playground but rather go from ride to ride. I.e. quest hub to quest hub or level bracketted zone to level bracketted zone.

EQ is somewhat like that, and what was WoW was based on, Asheron's Call was definetely NOT. There are no rides, i.e. quest hubs or level bracketted zones, there are areas which has tougher mobs but that is the same in any MMO. However there is nothing preventing a low level character to go to a high level zone and be successful, it all depends on your skills as a player and your character and I repeteadly did that when I played the game.

More over the world is huge and seamless with only the dungeons being connected by portals. Then finally there are no classes and the skill system is completely open. Meaning you can pick a magic school and sword skill if you want. AC has none of the hallmarks of a ThemePark and is definetely not one, nor has it ever been. It is less linear than games like Fallen Earth for instance.

I agree with what you are saying there, except for a couple of points.

First, "Themepark" was coined when EQ was in beta. It just didn't grow to common usage at that point. But the term was used widely when talking about EQ, and before WoW was released. WoW was called an "EQ Clone" before it was released, refering to the same Themepark, or D+D style of separated content by levels.

Even AC was called an "EQ Clone", because it was perceived as content divided by too much power gap between players. While I didn't play AC exactly because of this perception, I in fact didn't play it ...so I can't say for sure. But I have seen PvPers tell me I was right because PvP doesn't work too well when players have so much power gap. But then again, UO also had power gap, and it's all subject to interpretation. If I've been wrong about AC all these years, then I missed the boat because it did have some interesting features.

Final note, "Clone" was switched from "EQ" to "WoW" once WoW became the biggest game. Which didn't take too long.

Your right I first heard the terms themepark and sandbox way park in 2000 when I started EQ, so I assume they were around before 2000.

@ Yamota this list is not a debate as to what features make or not make a sandbox, or more specifically what you personally feel makes a sandbox, there is another thread for that.  I don't agree with all of Larsa's points about what is or is not a sandbox but that is besides the point.

This list is about the games that she feels match the requirements she posted on page 1.  Thats it.  And if all crafting materials are drops, then it is loot driven and doesn't make the list. 

Go to the other thread if you want to debate on what points make a sandbox.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Your right I first heard the terms themepark and sandbox way park in 2000 when I started EQ, so I assume they were around before 2000.

@ Yamota this list is not a debate as to what features make or not make a sandbox, or more specifically what you personally feel makes a sandbox, there is another thread for that.  I don't agree with all of Larsa's points about what is or is not a sandbox but that is besides the point.

This list is about the games that she feels match the requirements she posted on page 1.  Thats it.  And if all crafting materials are drops, then it is loot driven and doesn't make the list. 

Go to the other thread if you want to debate on what points make a sandbox.

In that case she should make it more clear that this is his personal list of games and not state that this is some sandbox list and then exclude one of the greatest sandboxes ever made. I mean wtf has combat oriented got to do with sandbox or not. Nothing.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Your right I first heard the terms themepark and sandbox way park in 2000 when I started EQ, so I assume they were around before 2000.

@ Yamota this list is not a debate as to what features make or not make a sandbox, or more specifically what you personally feel makes a sandbox, there is another thread for that.  I don't agree with all of Larsa's points about what is or is not a sandbox but that is besides the point.

This list is about the games that she feels match the requirements she posted on page 1.  Thats it.  And if all crafting materials are drops, then it is loot driven and doesn't make the list. 

Go to the other thread if you want to debate on what points make a sandbox.

In that case she should make it more clear that this is his personal list of games and not state that this is some sandbox list and then exclude one of the greatest sandboxes ever made. I mean wtf has combat oriented got to do with sandbox or not. Nothing.

 I think she has made it clear several times that it needs to satisfy the list up front. 

Consdering there is no universal definition of sandbox, and we all have our own opinion of what sandbox means, it should be pretty obvious this was her list. 

edit - and it was features/gameplay outside of combat.  IMO having other things besides combat and other things support activites besides combat is a defining feature of sandbox.

Nice list. Unfortunaly have tried many of that list, most of them don't please my eye's while their feature's are great.

But I have one question: Why is FreeRealm on that list? perhaps the game has changed allot, but wasn't it mostly mini games that places you sort of out of the gameworld? And also more a lobby game? Do you now perhaps influence the ingame world with all the mini games the game has or had?

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by sirphobos

I think of Everquest and Asheron's Call as "old school themeparks" in that they are less linear and give the player a lot more freedom than their modern counterparts like WoW, SWTOR, etc, but they are still themeparks if you ask me.

Of course, these are just words that gamers have made up and have no official dictionary definition (at least how we're using them).

ThemePark was coined right after WoW and is pretty clear in it's definition. Like a real ThemePark you really dont have an open ended playground but rather go from ride to ride. I.e. quest hub to quest hub or level bracketted zone to level bracketted zone.

EQ is somewhat like that, and what was WoW was based on, Asheron's Call was definetely NOT. There are no rides, i.e. quest hubs or level bracketted zones, there are areas which has tougher mobs but that is the same in any MMO. However there is nothing preventing a low level character to go to a high level zone and be successful, it all depends on your skills as a player and your character and I repeteadly did that when I played the game.

More over the world is huge and seamless with only the dungeons being connected by portals. Then finally there are no classes and the skill system is completely open. Meaning you can pick a magic school and sword skill if you want. AC has none of the hallmarks of a ThemePark and is definetely not one, nor has it ever been. It is less linear than games like Fallen Earth for instance.

I agree with what you are saying there, except for a couple of points.

First, "Themepark" was coined when EQ was in beta. It just didn't grow to common usage at that point. But the term was used widely when talking about EQ, and before WoW was released. WoW was called an "EQ Clone" before it was released, refering to the same Themepark, or D+D style of separated content by levels.

Even AC was called an "EQ Clone", because it was perceived as content divided by too much power gap between players. While I didn't play AC exactly because of this perception, I in fact didn't play it ...so I can't say for sure. But I have seen PvPers tell me I was right because PvP doesn't work too well when players have so much power gap. But then again, UO also had power gap, and it's all subject to interpretation. If I've been wrong about AC all these years, then I missed the boat because it did have some interesting features.

Final note, "Clone" was switched from "EQ" to "WoW" once WoW became the biggest game. Which didn't take too long.

There was a huge difference with how the powergap worked and even felt in AC over tradition level based games. When you leveled in AC (at least when I played it years back) you didn't gain any more power than your previous level. You may have obtained a skill point but that was about it. You gained points to spend on your skills per every xp gain throughout your gameplay. Your power gains came from spending your skill points which you could stockpile for weeks if you really wanted to. There was little or no level gating even with gear. You could wear the best gear in the game at low level if you had it. Perhaps this changed a great deal later but it was the basis of the game at the beginning.

There was actually not much difference in power between just a few levels difference. At level 50 I could kill some creatures that were levle 150. At level 130'ish I often dueled (and at least had a decent chance to win) players close to 200. Once you could cast level 6 (and later level 7) spells without fizzle you pretty much had a decent chance. The bigger difference typically was if you had a more friendly pvp build over the other person. The landscape is much different now due to imbues and what not so is more gear driven I imagine but this actually makes it even more of a sandbox as all tweaks and imbues come through player craft skills.

For the most part AC was a rather unique game (heavilly influenced by the other mmo's of time mind you) with it being skill based and having a pretty much seemless world and shared dungeon instances.

In my opinion the core essence of a sandbox game is it's attempt to throw you into an immersive world with the fewest barriers to players possible. AC tried it's best to do this with it's old, and admittedly by devs, limited engine. If the original dev team had it's hand on newer tech and new the state of todays mmo are in, they would have made an AC sequel much more sandbox like. Sadly AC2's development was nearly completely run by a different team and the then new industry standard to copy a templated mmo model already formulated by the success of EQ.

• Player's ability to change aspects of the game world, either by being able to modify the physical game world or by being able to take ownership of structures in the game world

Frankly, when you guys think a game is a sandbox because the quests are epic or because the game throws you into an immersive world or because you don't need to do any of the quests - then we're in disagreement. For this list Asheron's Call is out. And I suggest you make your own thread to discuss whether the game is a sandbox, that's not the purpose of this thread.

And I'm a he.

Originally posted by Larsa

Holy batman! You guys certainly manage to derail a thread. For your information, this is not the "Veterans of Asheron's Call" refugee thread. Please stop it. You guys are almost worse than the GW2 fans calling GW2 a sandbox.

 

Yes, Asheron's Call isn't a linear themepark, it's old-school. That doesn't make it a sandbox. And no, a crafting system that lets you tinker with loot drops and quest rewards is not an in-depth crafting system, sorry. The game was even designed without it and tinkering was introduced on-top of the existing game a few years after release.

 

But the most important criterium - and I asked the question in post #197 "And how exactly change players the game world in Asheron's Call?" hasn't yet been answered by any of you guys. Here's the requirement from my original post:

• Player's ability to change aspects of the game world, either by being able to modify the physical game world or by being able to take ownership of structures in the game world

Frankly, when you guys think a game is a sandbox because the quests are epic or because the game throws you into an immersive world or because you don't need to do any of the quests - then we're in disagreement. For this list Asheron's Call is out. And I suggest you make your own thread to discuss whether the game is a sandbox, that's not the purpose of this thread.

 

And I'm a he.

Larsa, I've pretty much avoided this thread because I don't agree with your take on what makes a Sandbox. I'm tired of the arguments back and forth. I do, however, accept that what you think makes a Sandbox game is one part of it. But overall, to me, it's all about how you can play the game. That's why I consider Skyrim, as a SPG, a Sandbox, but wouldn't if it were a MMORPG.

But really, I didn't want to intrude on your thread because it's a worthy thread, moreso than most. Just stating my case here in response.

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Originally posted by Amaranthar

... But really, I didn't want to intrude on your thread because it's a worthy thread, moreso than most. Just stating my case here in response.

---

Thanks, Amaranthar, I value your opinion. My little rant that you quoted wasn't really aimed at you personally. Feel free to intrude. :)

Originally posted by Tamanous

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by sirphobos

I think of Everquest and Asheron's Call as "old school themeparks" in that they are less linear and give the player a lot more freedom than their modern counterparts like WoW, SWTOR, etc, but they are still themeparks if you ask me.

Of course, these are just words that gamers have made up and have no official dictionary definition (at least how we're using them).

ThemePark was coined right after WoW and is pretty clear in it's definition. Like a real ThemePark you really dont have an open ended playground but rather go from ride to ride. I.e. quest hub to quest hub or level bracketted zone to level bracketted zone.

EQ is somewhat like that, and what was WoW was based on, Asheron's Call was definetely NOT. There are no rides, i.e. quest hubs or level bracketted zones, there are areas which has tougher mobs but that is the same in any MMO. However there is nothing preventing a low level character to go to a high level zone and be successful, it all depends on your skills as a player and your character and I repeteadly did that when I played the game.

More over the world is huge and seamless with only the dungeons being connected by portals. Then finally there are no classes and the skill system is completely open. Meaning you can pick a magic school and sword skill if you want. AC has none of the hallmarks of a ThemePark and is definetely not one, nor has it ever been. It is less linear than games like Fallen Earth for instance.

I agree with what you are saying there, except for a couple of points.

First, "Themepark" was coined when EQ was in beta. It just didn't grow to common usage at that point. But the term was used widely when talking about EQ, and before WoW was released. WoW was called an "EQ Clone" before it was released, refering to the same Themepark, or D+D style of separated content by levels.

Even AC was called an "EQ Clone", because it was perceived as content divided by too much power gap between players. While I didn't play AC exactly because of this perception, I in fact didn't play it ...so I can't say for sure. But I have seen PvPers tell me I was right because PvP doesn't work too well when players have so much power gap. But then again, UO also had power gap, and it's all subject to interpretation. If I've been wrong about AC all these years, then I missed the boat because it did have some interesting features.

Final note, "Clone" was switched from "EQ" to "WoW" once WoW became the biggest game. Which didn't take too long.

There was a huge difference with how the powergap worked and even felt in AC over tradition level based games. When you leveled in AC (at least when I played it years back) you didn't gain any more power than your previous level. You may have obtained a skill point but that was about it. You gained points to spend on your skills per every xp gain throughout your gameplay. Your power gains came from spending your skill points which you could stockpile for weeks if you really wanted to. There was little or no level gating even with gear. You could wear the best gear in the game at low level if you had it. Perhaps this changed a great deal later but it was the basis of the game at the beginning.

 

There was actually not much difference in power between just a few levels difference. At level 50 I could kill some creatures that were levle 150. At level 130'ish I often dueled (and at least had a decent chance to win) players close to 200. Once you could cast level 6 (and later level 7) spells without fizzle you pretty much had a decent chance. The bigger difference typically was if you had a more friendly pvp build over the other person. The landscape is much different now due to imbues and what not so is more gear driven I imagine but this actually makes it even more of a sandbox as all tweaks and imbues come through player craft skills.

 

For the most part AC was a rather unique game (heavilly influenced by the other mmo's of time mind you) with it being skill based and having a pretty much seemless world and shared dungeon instances.

 

In my opinion the core essence of a sandbox game is it's attempt to throw you into an immersive world with the fewest barriers to players possible. AC tried it's best to do this with it's old, and admittedly by devs, limited engine. If the original dev team had it's hand on newer tech and new the state of todays mmo are in, they would have made an AC sequel much more sandbox like. Sadly AC2's development was nearly completely run by a different team and the then new industry standard to copy a templated mmo model already formulated by the success of EQ.

Well.. no. And Amaranthar is right about the history.

And to throw you into an immersive world with the fewest barriers to players possible is more or less a definition of MMORPGS or RPGs, but not of a sandbox.

As the name sandbox even suggest, a sandbox is some kind of mmorpg, which is more of a playgorund to play with, and a core feature of that is that you can change the world. And back then was meant to build your house in the game world, build up your little town and so forth.. and maybe, even partly the dropable item art.. with throwing your drops and equipment and stuff persistent into the world to make some fancy shit.. or traps for other players or whatever.. nowadays noone could imagine that you could actually throw your stuff on the ground and anyone could pickup it. So you found on a lonely place on the ground the words "Leroy was here" with a lot of bones and blood... Or that you found out in the wilderness a lonely fishermen but with a whole lot of furniture. He took a chair his table a little box all over the places a few fish to, and fished on the lake while a campfire was burning. Basicly he changed the world in that place.. that is sandbox gameplay. Later on a lot of other stuff was included and understood what a sandbox shall be. But basicly, as long as you can permantly change the world(simplest example build/destroy a house or build destroy a ship) in a persistent world it is a sandbox. With second life it was expanded even more, with not just place something in the world and even more design your on stuff.. That is the core of a sandbox. And Second life was a sandbox, but not necessarily a game or a MMORPG.

And about AC.. well, it was not a sandbox.. this doesnt mean that it wasnt a good game, or a good MMORPG..

Nowadays, with the even more reduced gameplay options and even more reduced openess of gameworlds even a game like EQ looks for some like a sandbox.. even that EQ is the prototyp of a themepark at least in the past.

But nowadays maybe another term may be necessary to descripe open, seamless and persistent worlds.. because nowadays almost every shit is called mmorpg. But just because it is open, or seamless or persistent does not make it a sandbox. And all that skill based thing has basicly nothing to do with a sandbox. It is more of the open ended playstyle, and it will more often than not associated with a sandbox.. but in the core, it is not a sandbox defining feature.

Outer Empires

www.outer-empires.com is a 2D browser based Sci Fi sandbox. You are thrown in a galaxy with 20000 systems and you make your own way. You can research and make parts and sell to other players, create and destroy colonies, build stations, shoot people, create factions and alliances. It's a simplified version of EvE to describe it easily, definitely sandbox.

The below is from their website:

Information - About Outer Empires

Outer Empires is a space based massively multi-player online game created for both mobile app (coming soon) and desktop browsers (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Opera, Safari).

The Game

Set within a Galaxy spanning twenty thousand star systems, Outer Empires is a sandbox game allowing players to play in any style they choose and to to allow everything they do to make a permanent difference to the galaxy, whether you choose to be a miner or manufacturer, researcher or politician, be a pirate or run a mercenary faction, whatever you choose is up to you.

Players will have a variety of options, including:

Flying missions (transport, combat, salvage, exploration)

Set up Mines to extract resources.

Set up Manufacturing plants to make ships, parts and mods.

Set up Research Centres to improve blueprints for ships, parts and mods.

Create or join factions in the game to leverage your influence in the galaxy.

Buy new ships to fly as you rank up.

Participate in space battles.

Create your own ship builds from the wide variety of parts made by you or other players.

Salvage parts from destroyed ships.

Trade with other players in the player run economy.

Build and deploy Space Stations to open up remote areas of space.

Attack your enemy's colonies and defend yours from them.

Learn new skills or use implants.

Well AC1 was far more of a sandbox than Free Realms??? , I laughed that anyone would consider Free Realms as a sandbox.  AC1 was actually a skill based game that had levels.  One of the major points of a sandbox is the freedom to design your avatar and there were infinite varieties in AC1.

So yes AC1 was a sandbox.  All these games are variations of a sandbox.

Amazing that anyone could consider EQ as a sandbox as it was the first themepark.  A sandbox game cannot have rigid classes that is just an outright no no.

War Z is out monday (alpha and beta 31st).

Sandbox survival horror FPS MMO

Originally posted by Larsa

 

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Originally posted by Amaranthar

 

... But really, I didn't want to intrude on your thread because it's a worthy thread, moreso than most. Just stating my case here in response.

---

 

 

Thanks, Amaranthar, I value your opinion. My little rant that you quoted wasn't really aimed at you personally. Feel free to intrude. :)

Thank you. Ok, I'll state my case here.

You see, all those things that some of you are saying makes a Sandbox game, player houses, items on the ground, interactions with the game world, those are what I call "Sandbox Elements". They alone do not make a Sandbox game.

To explain this, lets suppose that you added all of those "elements" into WoW. But you'd still be level grinding from zone to zone in a Themepark manner as your core game play. That game would still be a Themepark game, only with "Sandbox Elements".

For a game to truly be a Sandbox, you need to allow the freedom for players to go anywhere and be able to play there. That doesn't mean the game shouldn't have progression. Skills or class, it really doesn't matter as far as this goes, although it does in other aspects of making a "good" Sandbox game. And it doesn't mean that game shouldn't have more difficult dungeons or forests or whatever. Just that the players, maybe with help from other players, can "go anywhere", and play in a roleplay manner consistent with a "world". This also means that large parts of the game world never become obsolete in general game play. The world stays as one world, not zoned to the character level range.

That freedom is the core of "Sandbox", in my opinion. It's what allows those Sandbox Elements to come together and make a great Sandbox experience.

Originally posted by Pale_Fire
Also, Asheron's Call and Everquest.  I know AC was/is sandbox.

This is what happens when people take a narrow definition and try to put it into their world view.

The only definitive definition between sandbox and thempark is linearity.  One guides you down a path from creation to level cap, the other gives you freedom to do what you will (within the scope of the game).

Ultima Online does have a cash shop.

http://store.origin.com/store/ea/search/?keywords=ultima+online