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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Combat: TERA v. GW2. Your thoughts?

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  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6131

5/03/12 10:13:47 PM#201
Originally posted by NBlitz
Originally posted by KulEndSpycee

I tend to prefer the combat in TERA but that is more a matter of personal taste than anything else.

I think an interesting side example to note here is the Elder Scroll series and Bethesda games in general (maybe excluding Skryim). When playing in third person view your character often looks strange and floaty during combat, this is due to a disjoint between what we expect and what we see. In real life you cannot run side to side while swinging a large axe, neither can you peddle backwards while firing a bow. Our brains realize this and the movement of the characters falls into a type of uncanny valley for combat, this plagued the earlier bethesda games and in my opinion that is also why some players think Guild Wars 2 combat doesn't give a very weighty feel to it. When you can move while casting/attacking the top and bottom halves of your character are not in sync graphically and it creates strange twists and motions that bother some people subconsciously because their brains recognize that the human body does not move in that manner. That is why to me personally it feels weird in Guild Wars 2 when I am strafing in circles around someone while flailing my greatsword around.

A lot of people complain about animation lock in TERA, but that is a core part of balancing active gameplay. Name any God of War/Devil May Cry beat-em-up or fighting game that didn't have animation locks and I will show you an awful gameplay system. If you do not have animation locks you often get either A) Spammy combat or B) Unbalanced melee vs ranged tradeoffs, both of which I think are a little too prevalent in GW 2.

Now I actually enjoyed Guild Wars 2 combat, but the lack of any resource system or vulnerability period while using 90%+ of skills made it a very clusterf*** experience for me, especially in very populated zones or WvWvW pvp. Ironically, despite TERA being the one with crosshair aiming I found GW 2 to have more in common with FPS's. Without resource management and with the constant movement combat is more about mobility and using skills reactionary to the situation which is very reminiscent of an FPS like Unreal Tournament. TERA is more slow and deliberate as attacks have large windups, animation frames that cannot be interrupted, and focuses more on punishment similar to a fighting game like Soul Caliber. Which you prefer is once again up to personal taste, but once again I like TERA a bit more in this respect.

And of course lastly the animations have something to do with it. When you hit things in TERA they flinch, they get bowled over, you get a satisfying sound effect that changes according to your weapon/attack and blood sprays in every direction. WIth player collisions enabled stronger attacks can physically force your opponent backwards even if they block with their shield. In GW 2 your attacks often feel very insubstantial. If you hit someone with a flurry of attacks as a Mesmer often you have no real indication that you did anything besides some combat numbers popping up, better hit effects would give the combat a more meaty feel to it. I do feel like the weapon swapping in GW 2 is kind of gimmicky though, really all you are doing is adding a hotkey to access half your skillbar and sometimes putting a cooldown on it.

In the end I actually enjoyed the combat in both games, but TERA definitely has my vote for better combat system. Better questing system however....

Where did you come from? This is everything I've said in the past but better worded and even surprised me as I didn't think of it "uncanny valley but for combat". Brilliant.

Permission to use your post in the future?

I think only time will tell who was right in their choice of combat mechanics but I'm leaning strongly towards TERA. ArenaNet has their balancing work cut out for them. You mentioned combat being a clusterf*ck? That's exactly how I felt when it got to several players doing something together. Feedback is. just. not. there. And the times it is, it's very poor IMO.

I can't judge that right now, as that's something that only time will truly tell. Two, three months after launch or so? I did enjoy swapping weapons out and I honestly hope that all the weapons each class can use will be just as viable in almost every situation (more balancing, heh).

Actually you can move side to side while swinging an axe.

 

You just don't run.  Proper footwork allows you to move and attack.  Its allows you to advance and retreat linearly in any direction or in a circular motion.  A good fighter in only planted for power for a VERY brief moment.   

You can take it to the bank that anyone I spar with that "animation locked" would get his ass handed to him everytime.

 

The reason many games look weird is they can capture anything other than running.  Fighters don't run they use footwork and turns of the hip.  Games don't allow you to control your characters hips.  All fighting styles teach you that the hips are the key and foot work is essentialy.

 

The bow part is correct though.  You can fire a bow on the run but you will be wildly in accurate at Short range I believe a good archer can do it with the right bow but he'd have to aim for the body and not necessarily have a good idea where he would hit.

Now horse mounted archers can shoot accurately on the move but they have methods of establishing a dynamic stability on the horse.

  Nightverge

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/12
Posts: 216

5/03/12 10:29:31 PM#202
Originally posted by KulEndSpycee
Originally posted by Nightshade55
     You are one of the few critics I feel I can talk to. We both have our different opinions on these games so it is obvious we will not change each others minds. I've played Tera, you've played GW2 (I hope, else we have nothing to talk about until you have). I never really got the "floaty" feeling in GW2. Attacks do make the characters recoil and even knock them on their ass. They can't have animations interrupting attacks though less you get Tera. I mean that in no disrespect but I feel that the animation lock was the single worst move they made.

     There are animation locks in other action games but you can't tell me you see no difference between GoW combat and Tera combat.  And actually GoW and devil may cry have zero permanent animations. 90% of them can be interrupted with a block or a dodge. Moving on though I feel the hit animations aren't over the top because it kills the flow of combat. They have to still be able to hit you back. If every move animation locked the enemy things would be far too easy. No matter how much damage they could do just cycle hit's and keep them locked.

     This was a big problem in Monster hunter and follows through in Tera. In MH a coordinated party could keep a rathalos (one of the games premier wyverns) literally locked in place by just repeating certain attacks. I've seen it done in Tera as well. In fact, I did it in Tera. You can animation lock BAM's by cycling moves and syncing them with others in your party.

     Moving on to resource systems. Every class has one. Not sure how you missed that. Every class's abilities use a resource system. So...yeah.

     Every skill has a vulnerability period. Not sure how you missed that either. Most skills have a wind-up which varies depending on the skill. Every skill also has an associated animation that goes along with it. You have animation lock in GW2 it just doesn't lock you standing still MOST OF THE TIME. For example if I, as a thief, use the flying lotus dual dagger skill. I am locked flying forward while spinning my blades. Can't move any other direction. In essence the whole move is a lock.

     Again it just doesn't lock you standing still most of the time. The only game that has any weight to blows is probably dead island. It can only get away with that because zombies are everywhere so it doesn't matter if you lock one. Do you know how many times I've punched a centaur in GoW with a cestus fist just to have it stand still? The only thing that happens is you have a weighted hit screen to impart impact. Happens all the time in DMC too. The only enemies that really feel impact are smaller minions. Even they sometimes are immune to scaled hit animations.

     So I disagree with you there. I didn't feel floaty  nor did I see anything that defies the human body. Also swinging a greatsword running looks wierd to us because we don't live in the middle ages. Nobody uses a greatsword.

     Do you think that in the crusades they seriously came to a complete halt to wind up and strike someone with a greatsword? In history longswordsman were shock troopers and charged into battle first. yes, they charged in, with huge swords. Swinging AND running. None of them came to a halt in front of the front lines to swing. They charged through the lines swinging and running.

     Just as archers moved and fired. If anything the combat is more realistic. Real warfare with spears and swords did not take place standing still jabbing your weapons at each other. Everyone was constantly moving unless they were part of a phalanx or something.

    

Well, to address your points (and I did play quite a bit over BWE although I never got anyone above early twenties since I tried a lot of classes):

- For the example with longswordsman, archers, and such. In a real charge there would be factors like momentum, fatigue, swing directions effecting impact, etc. Obviously I don't expect all that in a game because it would be way to hard to implement for the most part, but the lack of it really is what makes the difference. If someone charged forward with a greatsword and does a big homerun swing at the end that looks right, if I run literally in circles around someone while my giant sword waves back and forth like a toothpick independent of my legs that is when it strikes me as weird. However if you are used to that kind of animation it probably would not bother you as much. The feel of meaty blos is also more of a presentation thing, as you feel like you are hitting something with the blood sprays and sparks as you make contact.  It's more an aesthetics thing in this case where personal preference will decide it.

- As for WvW my experience was much different than yours. Having played TONS of GW1 this was a lot like AB, fun but kind of zergy. Most of the time the fights would be 5 vs 2 or 6 vs 3 or somesuch as small packs would overrun points defended by only a handful of players. However as tactics mature in the game this could easily change.  But this could have just been my experience with the game and you could easily have had a different one. (However it is interesting to note that Arenanet has historically been very rocky with balance, since GW1 was very very Fotm and nerfs where almost always devastating hammers).

- As for the MH comparison this is simply not true in TERA as stronger bosses all have hefty CC immunity. The GoW one is more apt since very few skills in TERA can cancel cast, but this is probably because TERA is an MMO and GoW is not (cancel casting would be very hard to balance for in pvp in a non-fighting game). In GW2 some skills do have animations that lock you into a certain movement or direction, but in Tera almost everything does.  The more important distinction to note is that movement is the most IMPORTANT type of animation locking, since the ability to move while performing an action has historically been the hardest thing to balance in games. WoW had to add dead zones to hunters because they could move while firing, anything that can move while firing/casting is usually extremely OP in MOBA's, etc.  If your ranged classes are not locked into standing still animations while casting or firing you will have to compensate with melee slows and gap closers and that can quickly become a slippery slope when it comes to pvp. Sure you can argue that every class has a ranged option as well but that just means you are fighting fire with fire because melee can't cut it. They have a long time to balance this though so it could easily turn out OK.

- It seemed rather chaotic actually due to how much skills where being spammed (especially in pve content although this may have been because I was on a hella populated server) not sure what you mean by a resource system though, the only one I really noticed was cooldowns which is not really a resource system by itself and more of a tiered global cooldown.

Right now I still stand by my opinion that TERA combat is better. However the caveat is that GW2 has a long development time still and could easily change my opinion by the time it releases.

Thanks for the response.

     I agree with you about weight momentum. Strafing in skyrim, for example, feels extremely wierd even in first person while wielding a two handed weapon because of this. I don't think middle age combat ever came to a complete halt but something is odd about it. I suddenly have the urge to try to swing a larg mallet or something while moving sideways. I honestly am having a hard time picturing how it should work in my mind. That being said in GW2 I played as a theif and a necromancer. You can easily strafe and hit strong blows with daggers and spells are a fantasy element with no wieght momentum at all.

     I have seen guardians use the greatsword and nothing struck me as odd about their combat. Again though I didn't particularly pay attention to it nor did I play one. I also may just be used to it in games now.

     I can understand how your view on WvWvW was formed. I just didn't experience it that way. So I agree your critique is valid for your experience, I just can't reinforce it in any way because I did not experience that. Maybe the sides you were going up against weren't that even? For example If I take a group of four to siege a castle it is likely that all of us will be targeted by at least 10 people each. Bring this scale slightly closer to what you may have experienced and if you were only with 20 people and they had 40 there is a good chance that everybody was being targeted on your side by more people.  I can't say though. If they were even groups Then those 6 people targeting your two must have had people they were being hit by behind them. So they probably died, if the groups were even.

     Interesting. I only fought a boss in my time there and we stun locked it. Or at least it appeared we did. Ranged in GW2 did not seem that powerful. Every class had the option for ranged but instead skirmishes usually started at range but ended in melee. As all skirmishes should. The ranged options are what balance things. The warrior and many other more 'in your face' classes have ranged snares and traps and things. All of these abilities can be dodged or countered but the ranged focus of a warrior is largely central on closing distance then switching to sword and board or whatever you normally use in melee. Ranger's ranged skillset (again your skills depend on what type of weapon your using) usually involves many slows and damagers too but instead rangers use them to gain distance rather than to close it. Let it also be known that back peddeling is significantly slower than running forward. That is the downfall of many rangers. You can't just kite things to death because running forward is always faster than running backwards. I feel this in itself balances the two. Melee classes have far more health and thus can tank all of the damage and squish rangers as long as they dodge snares and use their own. When they catch up to the rangers its over by and large. You can't really escape because, again, you backpeddle slower than you move forward. Because no move has a movement lock you can just keep tailing them as a warrior and keep up. See the balance works both ways because yes rangers can move while firing but here, so can melee classes. If you can dodge the snares your in the clear. As  theif I can't tell you how many times I would surprise rangers by throwing my dagger (which cripples them) then dodging all their snares and proceeding to rip them to shreds with heartseeker, lotus, and cloak and dagger.

     It also counts that ranged does no where near the damage that melee does. You may feel like your contributing as a ranged class against a DE but your not. Your damage is pitiful in comparison to the warriors and melee wielders up front who are in the thick. That's not to say ranged is useless but if you had an entire party of ranged or even mostly ranged your screwed. That's not to say Ranger's but rather people too stubborn or scared to pull out a sword. Rangers are very viable in melee as well.

  natuxatu

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/12/03
Posts: 1374

Bookah

5/03/12 10:31:11 PM#203

My thoughst are GW2 does it better.. because in GW2 the skills still go off whether you are in range or not.. so there is a sense of aiming to that degree without it getting clunky or outta control like in TERA. It also lets the skills in GW2 be more flashy and do more interesting effects than what you can do in TERA.

  KulEndSpycee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/03/12
Posts: 30

5/03/12 10:40:09 PM#204
Originally posted by natuxatu

My thoughst are GW2 does it better.. because in GW2 the skills still go off whether you are in range or not.. so there is a sense of aiming to that degree without it getting clunky or outta control like in TERA. It also lets the skills in GW2 be more flashy and do more interesting effects than what you can do in TERA.

But skills in TERA can be cast whether or not you are in range. However skills in GW 2 are more flashy. This is both good in that it's prettier to look at but bad in that it can be harder to distinguish what is going on, especially in pve if you have a large group of people doing your DE.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

5/03/12 10:53:02 PM#205

I prefer GW2's combat honestly. I can see what certain people are saying about some skills not 'feeling weighty enough', but that is definitely a skill-skill, basis. Some of the skills in GW2 do have animation lock, while nearly all of them in TERA do. While I do agree for some things, having animation lock does make sense, I feel it ultimately accomplishes nothing but to slow down the combat. I prefer GW2's method, because you are basically free to move for weaker spells, but if you want to land a harder hitting attack, you need to set yourself (and the enemy) up for it. A good example of this would be using bull's strike -> hundred blades. You literally charge & knockdown the enemy, then follow up by slicing him up like processed meat. It feels impactful, and it makes combat more engaging.

Imho, when it comes to the whole 'momentum' argument, I feel like TERA overexaggerates it (it's a lot of swing - pause, swing - pause), which is nice, but again doesn't really switch up the combat a whole lot. You especially feel this on classes like the slayer / berserker. There are some classes that can speed up their attacks quite a bit (sorcerer), but hen that happens it also looses it's impact. It feels spammy, and not because other people are spamming skills, but because you are.

Yes, GW2 can get a little zergy, but it also rewards smart play. TERA's combat just feels a bit easy imho, and there are a lot of telegraphs going on, which you don't get as much of in GW2.

As for the WvW that some people are talking about. Here is an excellent example of a battle in which an inferior (but more organized) team was able to take out a much larger force. Just a heads up, it's long (about an hour and a half).

http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654818 - part1

http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654335 - part2

There's another version of part2, from the strike team inside the keep, but it has a long intro commentary. Game footage starts @ 5:30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZHsfa6gEs&feature=player_embedded

  DJJazzy

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/11
Posts: 2068

5/04/12 12:37:50 AM#206

I would have liked Tera's combat a lot better if it wasn't for the animation root. You can say what you want about it but I didn't like it. GW2's combat may be not as action oriented but it felt more action oriented because of that animation root in Tera.

  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1523

5/04/12 1:23:23 AM#207
Originally posted by Zen_Blade
Originally posted by RKameL

For me the fact that at Tera you gotta stay still to do skills puts me out of the game. Im a bit tired of that.

I played GW2 beta and was surprised how the combat system works, always moving, dodging, jumping and doing skills at same time, it turns it very fluid and was what i most liked. Its harder at beginning but it has a lot more action going arround, and makes it much better IMO.

Interesting point about some skills "stopping" your movement.  I have been hearing a lot of complaints in GW2 about ranged being overpowered vs. melee, and wonder if that's the single biggest reason.  If you can kite everything, why have melee for the most part?  That could also by why TERA chose to restrict the movement on many abilities (Some you can move and execute).

You would think that it should be the opposite but unfortunately you cannot dodge in Guildwars and most MMORPGs.

 

My biggest worry about GW2 is that I won't be able to have an original build that works and that no one else uses (like we can in the first one).

 

The vids of TERA that I saw didn't make me want to play the game . ... so thats why I am in here reading comments. Having to stand still while casting usually bugs me enough to prevent a game from being my favorite.

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1523

5/04/12 1:45:13 AM#208
Originally posted by aesperus

http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654818 - part1

http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654335 - part2

There's another version of part2, from the strike team inside the keep, but it has a long intro commentary. Game footage starts @ 5:30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZHsfa6gEs&feature=player_embedded

Those vids look pretty cool but what scared me most was the amount of times that I saw one button pressed continuously while attacking. This worries me a lot. That would never happen in the first one pretty much.

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  Nightverge

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/12
Posts: 216

5/04/12 1:50:35 AM#209
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
Originally posted by Zen_Blade
Originally posted by RKameL

For me the fact that at Tera you gotta stay still to do skills puts me out of the game. Im a bit tired of that.

I played GW2 beta and was surprised how the combat system works, always moving, dodging, jumping and doing skills at same time, it turns it very fluid and was what i most liked. Its harder at beginning but it has a lot more action going arround, and makes it much better IMO.

Interesting point about some skills "stopping" your movement.  I have been hearing a lot of complaints in GW2 about ranged being overpowered vs. melee, and wonder if that's the single biggest reason.  If you can kite everything, why have melee for the most part?  That could also by why TERA chose to restrict the movement on many abilities (Some you can move and execute).

You would think that it should be the opposite but unfortunately you cannot dodge in Guildwars and most MMORPGs.

 

My biggest worry about GW2 is that I won't be able to have an original build that works and that no one else uses (like we can in the first one).

     You can both rest assured. I'll answer you in order.

     First I'd like to reiderate that this is beta. Being so latency issues and especially balancing issues are everywhere. The game will go through the same "beta flux" stage that all games with a respectable beta period go through. By the next beta ranged will likely be nerfed, then buffed the next time, and nerfed again until it is just right for release.

     Given that the ranged was actually fine. You can't kite everything. All characters backpeddle slower than they do running forwards. This means you will almost always end up in melee anyways. Melee also does more than three times the damage ranged does. The only time  you could possibly stay as ranged is if you have some kind of melee fence blocking you. If you've played skyrim then the ranged balancing is similar. Yes you can kite to some degree but backpeddling is slow so you can only do it for so long or if you appropriately use and land snares and reposition, etc.

     The only time playing ranged is easier than melee is if you are doing a DE against a boss enemy. If the melee characters are up front holding the bosses attention and you stand outside of AoE range then you can just sit there letting off arrows/bullets/etc. As you are at range though you are not contributing or damaging the boss nearly as much as the melee characters which means you get less DE points to spend on the good rewards. Ultimately it's a risk/reward system.

     All characters are given ranged options for a reason. Most melee skill sets involve distance closers or ranged attacks even. For example, my theif double dagger came with a move on slot 4 to throw one of the daggers and cripple up to four enemies.

     You can't just kite everything unless you begin really far away, its a small mob, and  you use snares. Otherwise they will catch up to you eventually. Again though ranged damage is pitiful in comparison to melee damage. So if you really want to take something down you stab it or hack at it.

     Ranged only becomes viable to use as a sole method of combat if you are accompanied by others to distract the enemy. It really is a genius pay off method. Melee takes more risk and thus deals more damage. Ranged takes WAY longer to kill things and eventually gets caught up with anyways unless you do some crafty gymnastics to keep at ranged.

     Ranged has drawbacks and plusses just like every other weapon. They deal far less damage but are generally safer.

     Again though, they are definately going to be subject to the beta flux. Anet already commented on them and noted that they are "too safe" even though they deal way less damage. They were going to experiment with threat and ranged characters apparently. The biggest issue is that they are only too safe when you have a fence of melee in front of you. You can just stand behind them and shoot, safe from all the AoE. Your not doing any damage but as a player some don't care. Thus the next beta will feature a ranged aggro I believe (or at least it was something Anet was considering). Meaning if you are just standing behind your melee buddies firing arrows AoE's and cripples will start comming your way. We'll see how it develops. I think its fine as is though.

    

 

 

     Now then, on to the second concern. You can definately play with a unique build. The problem in GW1 was that all the options made it impossible to balance. Here Anet has a specific set of abilities with criteria (heals, utilities, weapon skills, etc) to help keep them balanced. Given that I didn't feel any ding in customizable play. You can do whatever you want with four weapon slots (main and off hand plus switch) and then you have full customizability of your heal skills, three utilities, and your elite skill.

     I often found people with combo's I'd never even think of. There was a thief with a dagger in his main and a shortsword in his off hand. The dagger gave him mobility and the shortsword gave him many damager attacks. It was very interesting. You will definately be able to experiment with many builds.

  Nightverge

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/12
Posts: 216

5/04/12 1:52:31 AM#210
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
Originally posted by aesperus

http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654818 - part1

http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654335 - part2

There's another version of part2, from the strike team inside the keep, but it has a long intro commentary. Game footage starts @ 5:30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZHsfa6gEs&feature=player_embedded

Those vids look pretty cool but what scared me most was the amount of times that I saw one button pressed continuously while attacking. This worries me a lot. That would never happen in the first one pretty much.

     You can set one attack to be your auto attack. For example most attacks with a thief use initiative. So the first attack is generally devoid of this cost to allow you to build up. Guardians have long cool downs, etc. That's not you actually spamming an attack so much as it is you doing a combo. Its akin to hitting square in GoW. Its just the basic attack button.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

5/04/12 1:58:18 AM#211
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
Originally posted by aesperus

http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654818 - part1

http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654335 - part2

There's another version of part2, from the strike team inside the keep, but it has a long intro commentary. Game footage starts @ 5:30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZHsfa6gEs&feature=player_embedded

Those vids look pretty cool but what scared me most was the amount of times that I saw one button pressed continuously while attacking. This worries me a lot. That would never happen in the first one pretty much.

Ya, honestly I wouldn't pay too much attention to that. That 1 button you're talking about is pretty much always the auto-attack.

Except, in the first game you had to equip a combo (like slash, gash, final thrust), in GW2 that's been combined into one skill. While on the surface it might seem more simple, what it does is actually allow you to build your character for more versatility. In the first game, the vast majority of the builds cenetered around doing 1 thing. There were some balanced builds, but not many.

Also, a lot of the times the 1st attack (auto-attack) is being used to either save cooldowns for later strikes, or because the CDs are already being used. (talking about the elementalist here). For other classes, the 1st attack can be comboed to also get some nice effects, if you know what you're doing.

  judex99

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 397

5/04/12 2:02:52 AM#212

If we are talking just about the combat then is a hard decision for me, GW2 have a much faster combat but the response of the skills is not that good, Tera have better concept on aiming but the skills are very limited.

Just the combat "per se" and not taking in mind what are you figthing i think GW2 is better, or atleast better for my tastes, much faster and more options is what im looking for, i liked Tera's also but is like playing in slow motion compared to GW2.

This is my exp. with only a BW in GW2 mostly in structured pvp and with a level 36 or so in Tera, dont remeber exaclty because it was more than a year ago.

Anyway both have much better combat system than the average MMO in the market.

  Xasapis

Tipster

Joined: 1/12/07
Posts: 5587

5/04/12 2:04:28 AM#213
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
...

 

The vids of TERA that I saw didn't make me want to play the game . ... so thats why I am in here reading comments. Having to stand still while casting usually bugs me enough to prevent a game from being my favorite.

That's a weird comment to hear if you expect it from somebody who played a considerable number of mmorpgs. The majority of them root you in place while using skills. A lot have classes that are more mobile than others and some classes have both mobile and immobile skills, but the balance is that the immobile skills are usually much much stronger than the mobile equivalent. All in the name of balance of course.

 

Combat balance ...

... is something that very few people commented on, despite being one of the most important aspects of an enjoyable combat experience. Tera's combat system, despite their perceived flaws (yes, imo it's a perception thing) is a very balanced game, both in terms of class balance, melee vs ranged, casters vs physical, healers vs non healers, hybrids vs pures and so on. No matter how you perceive their system, it works, it's fun and it seems to be balanced not only at max level but also before, which is not a small feat.

GW2 has obviously no mid game balance to worry about and they are still sturggling to achieve it. Which of course it's fine, the game is still in beta and even if it was out the balancing is an ongoing process.

 

One last word regarding balance. Both games had to cut certain corners to achieve it (well, one is still struggling but as I said it's natural). Tera is restricting stats variations within each class, something that seem to be the norm in eastern games. GW2 is restricting gear and stat variations and is relying more on skills to provide gameplay variety. In the end, GW2 gives a bigger illusion of variety, but in reality both games restrict players to a certain cap. The difference is that it's a lot harder for Tera players to reach that cap (max level, best gear, best crystals & glyphs) than it is for GW2 players (instant max with best gear with the press of a button).

  Nightverge

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/12
Posts: 216

5/04/12 2:14:07 AM#214
Originally posted by Xasapis
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
...

 

The vids of TERA that I saw didn't make me want to play the game . ... so thats why I am in here reading comments. Having to stand still while casting usually bugs me enough to prevent a game from being my favorite.

That's a weird comment to hear if you expect it from somebody who played a considerable number of mmorpgs. The majority of them root you in place while using skills. A lot have classes that are more mobile than others and some classes have both mobile and immobile skills, but the balance is that the immobile skills are usually much much stronger than the mobile equivalent. All in the name of balance of course.

 

Combat balance ...

... is something that very few people commented on, despite being one of the most important aspects of an enjoyable combat experience. Tera's combat system, despite their perceived flaws (yes, imo it's a perception thing) is a very balanced game, both in terms of class balance, melee vs ranged, casters vs physical, healers vs non healers, hybrids vs pures and so on. No matter how you perceive their system, it works, it's fun and it seems to be balanced not only at max level but also before, which is not a small feat.

GW2 has obviously no mid game balance to worry about and they are still sturggling to achieve it. Which of course it's fine, the game is still in beta and even if it was out the balancing is an ongoing process.

 

One last word regarding balance. Both games had to cut certain corners to achieve it (well, one is still struggling but as I said it's natural). Tera is restricting stats variations within each class, something that seem to be the norm in eastern games. GW2 is restricting gear and stat variations and is relying more on skills to provide gameplay variety. In the end, GW2 gives a bigger illusion of variety, but in reality both games restrict players to a certain cap. The difference is that it's a lot harder for Tera players to reach that cap (max level, best gear, best crystals & glyphs) than it is for GW2 players (instant max with best gear with the press of a button).

     Thanks for your feedback. You only "instant max" in PvP. This insures nobody is frusterated out of their skull and is what makes WvWvW possible. Otherwise WvWvW would be locked to everyone under max level less they want to be frusterated to hell.

     I didn't quite understand the statement that there's no mid game balance? Excuse my density but what do you mean?  It's always been much harder to balance GW games because your never sure what skills a player has chosen. They could come into combat with any combination of skills.

     In a normal MMO you know that they are comming into combat with all of them basically. This makes things more difficult because your not really sure what the player has or doesn't have.

     I wouldn't really call either game cutting corners but they do sacrifice systems to achieve balance, absolutely. Your absolutely right too about stat restrictions.

     How does GW2 restrict gear? Unless you mean only in PvP? I found lots of gear on my travels.

  Xasapis

Tipster

Joined: 1/12/07
Posts: 5587

5/04/12 2:20:29 AM#215

It matters little to the mobs you are fighting if your class is balanced or overpowered, thus my previous comment was solely based on PvP. By mid game balance, I was referring to the open world PvP and how you have to defend yourself in the world in a PvP server. GW2 offers only structured PvP at max level in a restricted area, therefore they don't have to worry about mid game balance.

Also there is a gear cap in GW2 (and in Tera obviously) that you achieve when you enter the WvWvW zone, which has little to do with what you're wearing in the PvE world. That was the cap I was talking about.

  Apraxis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1242

5/04/12 3:53:30 AM#216
Originally posted by Jayaris

People don't understand why there is Animation lock, they think you should have full control of your character at all times. If you don't like animation lock (there are a multitude of games that are designed to include it) then you won't like this combat system, chances are you don't like action games in general. I like animation lock for the following reasons :

- It makes attacks more tangible, being able to hurl spells while running just feels implausible a warrior would realistically have momentum to consider.

- It makes landing your attacks more important.

- It's helps balance the classes.

First of all to get the GW2 vs Tera out of the Post. Both are better than the traditional tab targeting MMO Combats (WoW and other with Global Cool Downs, or DAoC and other without Global Cool Downs - and i prefered here the version without GCD), but both a far from perfect. The truth is i didnt played one MMO, or Game in general with a really good Melee/Ranged Combat, they are all lacking and try to define to how it could work.

Now to the Quote.

Animation lock is not really the problem, because it is true that any attack should have some amount of momentum and you should not instantly during one attack fire off the other. BUT, the animation, and withit the animation lock is insanly high in TERA and in most so called Action Combat Games(or lets call them Console or Gamepad Games), and that is why a lot of ppl dont like it that much. It is just not realistic to as it is, and even more it is boring and mind rubbing.

Lets forget any technically limitations, and lets talk or discuss how a melee/ranged combat system should be.

As i said no combat system i ever played was perfect, but mount&blade was at least a good move in the right direction, limited, but at least the right direction.

You were able to swing your Sword(or any weapon, or let say attack) in any direction, as much as you could Block/Parry in any direction. You also got some momentum with two different effects. First of all an attack with a 2Handed Sword took more time in execution(but not by any means as long as in Tera or similar games) than with a 1Handed Sword, and you got some extra Dmg if you attacked in full movement(from horse or foot). Also the mounted combat was the first mounted combat worth mentioned, because you could not instant turn your mount back or in any direction, you got the momentum of speed, it felt natural. The ranged combat was FPS like, but your Arrow was influenced by gravitation(but not wind), and again extra dmg for the momentum of the arrow.

All that was good and a move in the right direction. But then they stopped. That is it was lacked with the mound&blade combat. But there were no special moves(Skills), no riposte or anything like that. But how should they look? What skills would be cool or would improve combat? I think it should be reactional styles, similar to real fencing. If you block/parry, you got a chance of a riposte, a fast counter attack.. and so on and so forth. Such a combat system would be a system i want to see in the future. GW2 and Tera are all nice and good, but both are just tiny steps from the traditional mmo combat.

  Otomox

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/07
Posts: 312

5/04/12 3:54:53 AM#217

There is nothing to compare TERAs combat is atm the best action combat u can get anyone saying otherwise is a lier or fanboy.

  Nightverge

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/12
Posts: 216

5/04/12 3:59:39 AM#218
Originally posted by Xasapis

It matters little to the mobs you are fighting if your class is balanced or overpowered, thus my previous comment was solely based on PvP. By mid game balance, I was referring to the open world PvP and how you have to defend yourself in the world in a PvP server. GW2 offers only structured PvP at max level in a restricted area, therefore they don't have to worry about mid game balance.

Also there is a gear cap in GW2 (and in Tera obviously) that you achieve when you enter the WvWvW zone, which has little to do with what you're wearing in the PvE world. That was the cap I was talking about.

     Ahh ok, I see. Yeah GW2 doesn't really have to worry about midgame balance in PvP because everyone is buffed to a similar point.

    Yes, your right though. Both have gear caps and GW2 doesn't need to balance PvP at the 40th level, etc.

    

  Nightverge

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/12
Posts: 216

5/04/12 4:04:51 AM#219
Originally posted by Otomox

There is nothing to compare TERAs combat is atm the best action combat u can get anyone saying otherwise is a lier or fanboy.

     Wow. I've explained why calling someone a fanboy is baseless in my other posts. People like what they like and have different values than you do. People are not blind to their own values and thus being a fanboy is impossible in the sense of the word where it is used to mean 'a blind follower'. If someone enjoys a game then they enjoy it.

     Moving on though I believe GW2 combat was better because i had more fun with it. I can also admit that Tera is a fun game still, although I had more fun with GW2 Tera is a nice game.

     So which of those am I?

  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1523

5/04/12 4:29:52 AM#220
Originally posted by Xasapis
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
...

 

The vids of TERA that I saw didn't make me want to play the game . ... so thats why I am in here reading comments. Having to stand still while casting usually bugs me enough to prevent a game from being my favorite.

That's a weird comment to hear if you expect it from somebody who played a considerable number of mmorpgs. The majority of them root you in place while using skills. A lot have classes that are more mobile than others and some classes have both mobile and immobile skills, but the balance is that the immobile skills are usually much much stronger than the mobile equivalent. All in the name of balance of course.

I have had a lot of fun playing games where I had to stand still during attacks but my point is that all of my favorite games that I have played for years and still love all allow me to move while I attack. I guess that it is just a preference of mine but I have noticed others here sharing the same experience. I generally think that it is funner to be able to move around while attacking. AoC was able to make up for it by having awesome graphics and fatalities so that my standing still may be shoving a sword through someone's face but all in all I am more likely to subscribe longer to games that allow me to move freely during combat. Running around while tab-targeting auto-attack may be funner than having to stand still while fighting with a manual aim in my opinion . .. and this is coming from someone who prefers manual aim. I hate having to stand still while attacking . .....!! I think that I enjoy it the most in the original Guildwars but its pretty rare that I use any skills that freeze me up like that (I am 99% PVP in that game).

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

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