Incoming wall of text.

I have been avoiding these cash shop threads mostly because it is so subjective. What is P2W for one person is far from it for another. To each their own.

However after playing a long weekend of GW2 I have to ask. Exactly how are they getting an advantage? Where is the edge? From an outside perspective I can see many arguments. But after hands on, I just don't see it. I will try to explain why.

The P2W argument, from all I have seen, stems from people gaining an advantage of any sort by spending real life cash. With that in mind let me tackle a couple things presented here. I am going to use the acronymn RLC in place of Real Life Cash.

RLC->In Game Gold = advantage. This is very true in WoW or other games where the in game gold can translate to items that give an advantage in game. Better gear, more consumables, etc. Through normal playing, not even pushing or trying very hard I had max level gear on pretty much constantly. At levels in factor of 5 (5,10,15 etc) it was very easy to craft a full set of exactly what I wanted and so much loot dropped, I usually had that stuff anyway. I could have had a million plat and I wouldn't have had any kind of combat advantage over someone else. The advantage I would have is I could buy on the trading post cosmetic items that would change my look etc. But isn't that what a cash shop is supposed to be for? Cosmetic items that don't give any kind of statistical advantage? Gold is great. It can't give an advantage over a competant player or even incompetant player who just pays attention. Not in GW2 at least. In many other games it can, though.

RLC->Xp Boost->Faster Leveling->Higher level means better at content.   Well, the problem with this argument is once I hit about level 7 (which is pretty quick) everywhere I went seemed to have this green number next to my level. For those of you who have not played GW2 this means I am being leveled down to the content of the area I am in. As I explored through the 1-17 "zone" and moved to the next area that was 17-25, most players I looked at had the green down arrow symbolizing they are being deleveled for the area. This may change later on, but leveling comes quick and there is a TON of content. Unless you are just passing up fun stuff you are going to spend most of your time with your level throttled. 

This is not a game where you are racing to cap level so you can start to gear grab so you can get the next tier of gear. They could sell an instant level 80 button and really it wouldn't matter, they would be throttled right back down to the area they are going through. However, this would give an advantage in the newbie zones where you could be level 2-3 but that 80 is throttled to 6 giving them a gigantic advantage for that tutorial DE or heart. So while if you really wanted to push that point, the instant 80 button would give an advantage. However, they only sell xp boosts(which you can get in game btw, but not an unlimited supply) which boosts the xp gain from kills. Which means you will still be level 2-3 in that newbie area and you gotta fight your way up to getting throttled. Basically xp potions allow you to more quickly get your level throttled back down.

It could be a nice item for someone trying to catch up to friends xp, if that matters to them. (The higher level friends can always go to lower level areas to hang with their friend and they will be deleveled automatically).

But in the end, it is not giving any sort of advantage in content. It can be used to skip content, if you consider that winning, but if that is the case why are you playing the game if not to...well... play the game. But I think there are some misconceptions on how this all works. 

RLC->Karma boost-> win. This one could gain some traction, but from what I experienced is that a) there isn't just a karma merchant hanging out selling a million things and you just shop for what you want. When you pass a DE or a "heart" quest, that gives you access to a karma merchant. they each sell something different. And it's generally a small list, like: a trinket that gives +x to a stat.,A craft recipe, A novelty consumable and sometimes 1 piece of armor (like say gloves) for each armor type. That is it. Which means, you have to go actually complete the proper DE or heart to get the item you want. And then the costs are so little for these items, that unless you blew all your karma on cosmetic items you will have plenty. (disclaimer: after about level 6 that is. Early levels you are still building up karma) I spent a decent amount of karma on silly cosmetic items because i had so much that it didn't matter. Even if i had a million more karma, i wouldn't have been able to get better gear, but I could have gotten more potions that turn me in to a dredge! (example, I can't remember what it actually turned me in to). Also for full discloser when you shapeshift in to things like golems/animals etc, you have no skills to use and can't talk to merchants.

So again, you can cash shop buy karma boosts which then give you extra karma for cosmetic/silly items.

RLC->Guild influence boosts->more guild buffs->win! This one had me seriously worried. A smallish group of us formed a guild, there were probably 8-10 of us fairly active, anywhere from 3-6 on at a time. I think we pulled in (without trying and minial grouping etc) around 1000 influence a day without any boost. We started our politics upgrade which cost 500 influence and took about a day to build. Then we could activate our first buff! a karma boost that would cost 50 influence for 24 hours! With queue times of building and the low cost of items, it seems like guilds won't struggle on influence except maybe in the beginning, or if they are a tiny guild. If you want to cry p2w on this, you have something you can kinda sorta argue with, but I don't think you will find much traction.

So really, imho, the way the cash shop was set up this past BWE (things can always change), the cash shop could be deemed P2W if:

a) You didn't get to play and don't really understand how these mechanics work

b) You are super sensitive on the P2W subject and you view the things above to be game breaking.

If you are in column a), don't fret. I hope I shed some light on the subject. If you are from column b) then I am sorry you feel that way and clearly GW2 is not the game for you. Personally I think GW2 will not be the game for many many people. That is okay. It doesn't mean the game sucks, it just means go play another and let the people who like GW2 play it.

TL;DR: cash is nearly useless in the game except for fluff, you get deleveled anyway, and you get plenty of karma/influence.

*edited for less crappy formating

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by NiteShadow

I recieved an XP Boost clicky in the story quest as an award.. Keys ive found as loot off trash.. 

Gold would cost you tons of $$$ to convert gems into gold, the percentage to ratio is not worth it for RL $$..

I don't thnk any of what you said in the OP has any fact to it.. sorry..

They have to limit the availbility of those boosts in game. Why? If they don't, then selling them in the cash shop becomes redundant. So why do they give them to you in the first place? So you know they exist and see the effects of them.

The gold gem conversion will be at a level that makes it economicalyl viable to purchse. This means that it has to be a better use of one's time to work in real life. Then use that money to purchase gold.

With the exception of the key, when you get the cash shop items, they are soulbound. Since the items appear to be fairly rare, I don't see how your argument holds up.

 

And your argument about time doesn't work. There is no reason to think people won't just buy more gems than what they make in real life. Someone could make $5/hour, spend $20 in gems and only make enough gold on them to alleviate 1 hour of play. 

 

Actually, I'll bet the vast majority of people won't even think about their real life income when it comes to buying gems. Perhaps you will so that you can justify your time, but soetimes people want things in a game now. No matter the cost.

 

Someone could even feel like saving 1 hour in game is worth 4 hours of RL work.

I can't believe you are making me explain this.

Gold has to be economically viable to buy or nobody would be able to afford to purchase it.

Even if it by some miracle this didn't occur at launch. Gold farmers would fall upon the game in droves until it did become economically viable.

I wasn't arguing that point. I can't believe I had to explain that. I even specifically said, "And your argument about time doesn't work."

Of course the market will shift depending on supply and demand and at some point it will level off at an appoximate point where people will feel like it is worth the value.

I was referring directly to your idea that, "This means that it has to be a better use of one's time to work in real life." Which is not true at all.

Well we got the key issue out of the way, now on to gear, and the fact that it flattens out, so gear obviously doesn't win you anything. IF gear flattens currency in turn doesn't buy you any power.

So that just leaves Xp Boosts, what do you win by having those?

Originally posted by Distopia

Well we got the key issue out of the way, now on to gear, and the fact that it flattens out, so gear obviously doesn't win you anything. IF gear flattens currency in turn doesn't buy you any power.

So that just leaves Xp Boosts, what do you win by having those?

^^^^Thank you, this is exactly the post people should be reading, not the guys typing out the most words to look intelligent or badass, just one guy saying it like it is.

Logic people, use it!

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Atlan99

 

I wasn't arguing that point. I can't believe I had to explain that. I even specifically said, "And your argument about time doesn't work."

 

Of course the market will shift depending on supply and demand and at some point it will level off at an appoximate point where people will feel like it is worth the value.

 

I was referring directly to your idea that, "This means that it has to be a better use of one's time to work in real life." Which is not true at all.

The you took me complety out of context. I was clearly talking about the economical viability of buying gold. I'm not sure how you could have taken my statements any other way. At this point you seem to be arguing just to argue. I'm not sure what point, if any, you are trying to make.

Originally posted by Distopia

Well we got the key issue out of the way, now on to gear, and the fact that it flattens out, so gear obviously doesn't win you anything. IF gear flattens currency in turn doesn't buy you any power.

So that just leaves Xp Boosts, what do you win by having those?

You win the ability to have a green down arrow next to your name, like most people had 90% of the time anyway.

(for those who don't know, that mens they are being downleveled do the content)

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Originally posted by fansede
Would you buy GW2 if it was a single player game right now?

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Originally posted by k-damage

Re : Keys 

I looted 2 mystic keys during my first 10 levels of beta.

 

Re : XP Boosts

In the second Norn zone, one history quest reward was a +50% XP boost for one hour.

 

Re : Gold

Gold can only let you purchase "white" gear.

 

 

/thread

requoted because people don't seem to read every post in the threads they open.

(or just like to invent imaginary problems)

edit : I even put flashy colors, so I don't have to requote indefinitely.

There is no benefit other than bragging rights to race to max level. Racing to end game in GW2 is pointless. There is no endgame raids you can then race to gear up for. There is no gear treadmill. You are max leveled for PVP already when you go in at level 2 or whatever.

I can understand the confusion you guys have been brainwashed for so long to get into a game and race to max level and do raids or get on the hamster wheel for PVP gear and grind BGs and Areana that it couldn't possibly occur to you that it could be done any other way. For those of you who didn't play beta you cant possibly understand until you actually play the thing.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Atlan99

 

I wasn't arguing that point. I can't believe I had to explain that. I even specifically said, "And your argument about time doesn't work."

 

Of course the market will shift depending on supply and demand and at some point it will level off at an appoximate point where people will feel like it is worth the value.

 

I was referring directly to your idea that, "This means that it has to be a better use of one's time to work in real life." Which is not true at all.

The you took me complety out of context. I was clearly talking about the economical viability of buying gold. I'm not sure how you could have taken my statements any other way. At this point you seem to be arguing just to argue. I'm not sure what point, if any, you are trying to make.

Yes, I was arguing agaisnt the point you were trying to make because it was false. I guess you can call that arguing just to argue if you want to.

"The gold gem conversion will be at a level that makes it economicalyl viable to purchse. This means that it has to be a better use of one's time to work in real life. Then use that money to purchase gold."

Those two statements you made put together make no sense because it depends on the idea that there is a direct connection between the amount of IRL time spent making money and in game time saved by purchasing gems. I offered an example. I make $5/hour IRL. I spend $20 in cash shop. It only saves me 1 hour of in game time. I still feel like the purchase was worth it.

Perhaps it's not just me arguing just to argue, but the fact that you are also unable to accept that you might be wrong about something. So you then accuse other posters of arguing just to argue.

When I first saw the Gems to Gold conversion, I was a bit miffed.  But the more I thought about it, almost every MMO has some type of currency farming, where currency and items are sold on external (shady) websites.

Arenanet is acknowledging the currency exchange exists, so why not build it into the game?  If someone is going to get a piece of the pie, it may as well be them.  Smart.

Originally posted by colddog04

 

Yes, I was arguing agaisnt the point you were trying to make because it was false. I guess you can call that arguing just to argue if you want to.

 

"The gold gem conversion will be at a level that makes it economicalyl viable to purchse. This means that it has to be a better use of one's time to work in real life. Then use that money to purchase gold."

 

Those two statements you made put together make no sense because it depends on the idea that there is a direct connection between the amount of IRL time spent making money and in game time saved by purchasing gems. I offered an example. I make $5/hour IRL. I spend $20 in cash shop. It only saves me 1 hour of in game time. I still feel like the purchase was worth it.

 

Perhaps it's not just me arguing just to argue, but the fact that you are also unable to accept that you might be wrong about something. So you then accuse other posters of arguing just to argue.

You are wrong.

There is a direct connection. There is a whole industry called gold farming that has sprung up around this idea. Basically people can purchase gold in video games. So what happens is people who don't have time or don't want to farm gold, buy gold. These people commonly have jobs. At these jobs they make money that they use to purchse said gold.

As far as your example.

If you make $5 dollars an hour.  You then spend $20 dollars to save 1 hour. You fail at life, because you just wasted 4 hours to save 1 hour. It doesn't matter how you feel about it. You still fail at math and life.

During my time playing the beta, I received a 3 chests and 2 mystic keys... so I don't see a problem there, Also somewhere along the way I picked up a XP booster so they do drop in world.

The cosmetic items are cool and I plan to get atleast the dye pack and the ability to use a skin off another weapon is very neat. I'm sure I will get this as well when I reach max level.

All in all I am not threatened by a cash shop since you can use ingame currency to get the same items. some people don't have the opportunity to play 30+ hours a week so I can see where this might beneficial to them as well.

just my view on it ;)

On a ending note. I was blown away by this game. It was the most fun I have had playing a MMO in a Veerrrry long time. +1 Anet

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by k-damage

Re : Keys 

I looted 2 mystic keys during my first 10 levels of beta.

 

Re : XP Boosts

In the second Norn zone, one history quest reward was a +50% XP boost for one hour.

 

Re : Gold

Gold can only let you purchase "white" gear.

 

 

/thread

requoted because people don't seem to read every post in the threads they open.

(or just like to invent imaginary problems)

 

edit : I even put flashy colors, so I don't have to requote indefinitely.

requoting, please read this everyone./

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XP boosts... OH NOES! The person will get to lvl 80 30 mins before I do! Whoah... I could care less since there's no real advantage in gaining levels faster. What's the advantage there? Rushing trough the content faster? I'll see whatever I'll want to see when I want to see it, period...

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This and end of discussion!

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by colddog04

 

Yes, I was arguing agaisnt the point you were trying to make because it was false. I guess you can call that arguing just to argue if you want to.

 

"The gold gem conversion will be at a level that makes it economicalyl viable to purchse. This means that it has to be a better use of one's time to work in real life. Then use that money to purchase gold."

 

Those two statements you made put together make no sense because it depends on the idea that there is a direct connection between the amount of IRL time spent making money and in game time saved by purchasing gems. I offered an example. I make $5/hour IRL. I spend $20 in cash shop. It only saves me 1 hour of in game time. I still feel like the purchase was worth it.

 

Perhaps it's not just me arguing just to argue, but the fact that you are also unable to accept that you might be wrong about something. So you then accuse other posters of arguing just to argue.

 

You are wrong.

There is a direct connection. There is a whole industry called gold farming that has sprung up around this idea. Basically people can purchase gold in video games. So what happens is people who don't have time or don't want to, buy gold. These people commonly have jobs. At these jobs they make money that they use to purchse said gold.

As far as your example.

If you make $5 dollars an hour.  You then spend $20 dollars to save 1 hour. You faill at life because you wasted 4 hours to save 1 hour. It doesn't matter how you feel about it. You still fail at math and life.

See, that's where your argument fails hard.

You believe that a 1:1 ratio of value exists to the consumer. When in reality, someone may value putting 4 hours in at work to save one hour in game. 

Look at it the other way around. Someone may value putting 10 minutes into work to save 1 hour of game time so they are much less likely to spend money on gems.

There is no direct relationship between IRL time played and value of gems. Just saying people fail at life to help support your argument doesn't really work. It actually just amkes you sound desperate.

And just to reiterate what you've already expressed to me. You are wrong.

Oh so this is one of those moments where one says "So they made the cash shop optional not needed?"

A-NET was not bullshitting about P2W/Advatange least they aren't [so far] the made the game with cash shop in mind, meaning they obviousely made it to where you want need what's in the cash shop unless you want it, and the sheer fact with time you can get what's in the cash shop without putting in r/l cash.

I know it's unfortunate right now that we can't seem to find something at the moment that will ruin GW 2.

Right now we would have to rely on A-NET screwing it up.

This doesn't mean the game is perfect but unfortunately as of right now, it's not P2W lol.

Take care guys.