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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 is apparently PayToWin based on this video... :(

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245 posts found
  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

5/01/12 7:00:08 AM#221


Originally posted by biggarfoot
There is no armour or weapons in any chest I opened only buffs and potions that can morph you for 15 minutes.

What kind of buffs? +XP buffs are okay but if we're talking about +stats buffs, it's much, much worse.
 

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  tollbooth

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/11
Posts: 302

5/01/12 7:45:55 AM#222
i don't consider any of what the op said as pay to win.  there is nothing wrong with a cash shop offering convenience items.  the people who have a job and money can advance at the same rate as the people who don't have a job or money.  people need to stop giving convenience items a negative connotation when those are the items that help the game grow.
  MMO_REVIEWER

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/09
Posts: 374

MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. let it take us in new directions

5/01/12 7:52:28 AM#223
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Atlan99

That it is why they sell the key in the item shop.

Now try again. Why did arenanet create the mystic chest and mystic key? Why not just give the player the loot inside?

Just out of curiousity, do you have any idea what is IN the chest?  :T

It's hardly p2w.  More like p2f  (Play 2 Fluff)

Boosts and fluff

Hardly the world's most amazing boosts. :/

Also, while the key rate seems to be less than the chests currently (Not amazingly bad, but yeah, it's less), golem butlers can open unlimited chests for free until their time runs out and they're not a cash shop item. :/  They can also do unlimited dyes.  It's really just a matter of convenience and people being impatient.

Fixing being impatient isn't p2w. 

Unless your whole idea to winning is to reach stuff slightly faster than other people, when there's a cap that can be reached within a hundred hours anyway.

I guess if you play MMORPGs purely to rush to max level, then it's p2w... faster anyway.  Not doing anything anybody else can't, really.

You know this is the same thing I've been preaching for ages but this atlan guy and several others just don't seem to get it. As I've said before, its a childish gesture "this guy is getting there faster than me!" or rather "billy is going to get to sarahs party 5 minutes before me! That's not fair!!!"

MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.

  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1027

5/01/12 7:52:41 AM#224
Originally posted by wowfan1996

 


Originally posted by biggarfoot
There is no armour or weapons in any chest I opened only buffs and potions that can morph you for 15 minutes.


What kind of buffs? +XP buffs are okay but if we're talking about +stats buffs, it's much, much worse.
 

 

3 chests opened that were given to me by a guildie.

 

4 x golemite potions that turned you into a golem for 15 mins

3 x other potion that turned you into something for 15 minutes (cant remember for the life of me what it was)

2 x keys

1x XP potion that gave extra xp for 1 hour (cant remember if it was 10% or 50%)

1 x magic find potion by 50% for 30 mins or 1 hour (again cant remember the duration)

1 x kill bonus potion.

1 x instant armour repair canister.

avg of 4 items per chest

Now these buffs had restrictions on where you can use them, most can't be used in PvP and dungeons.  I should of taken screen shot.  all the items were soulbound, but if you dont open the chest you can sell these or give them to friends if you wish to do so.  None of these items are game breaking or give a distinct advantage over anyone else, as everybody has a chance of getting these items.

I will be buying gems, but they will be used to gain extra inventory space and costumes, it will be my way of supporting the game as I think its worth supporting and gives me the entertainment value i'm looking for.

  MMO_REVIEWER

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/09
Posts: 374

MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. let it take us in new directions

5/01/12 8:04:05 AM#225
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by Sp1dersbane

The topic of "Is this game P2W?" is getting really old and boring.

 

Play to Win;

Having to pay real money for in game items that are otherwise unavailable. Said items will generally offer a distinct advantage to buyers over players who don't buy. This creates a requirement to spend real cash to remain competitive, thus the 'Pay to Win' business model.

 

Guild Wars 2 Gem Shop Inventory;

  • Costumes
  • Non-combat mini-pet's
  • XP boosts
  • Services
  • Mystic Key's
  • Transmutation Stone
  • Dye Pack's
  • Asuran Bank Portal
  • Instant Repair Canister - Not usable in dungeons
  • Perfect Salvage Kit
  • Resurrection Orb - Not usable in PVP or W v W
  • Unlock bag/bank slot
Meh....look for yourself  ---> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Shop
 
Gems, Based on the MMORPG.com video linked by the OP, are 100 gems for 7 silver.
 
The most expensive single item is 600 gems, that's 42 silver.
 
 
That was the Closed Beta weekend ofc so the price was fixed for players to try it out.
 
So who set's the Gem price after launch?
 
We do. If we only want to spend 1 silver per gem then that's all they get. People will always want more gems and some people will always have more gold. I don't hear anyone screaming about the in game gold farmer who's buying up all the gems for his mini-pet army.
 
Because everything in the gem shop has a gem price, each and every item in there is available to any and all players without them spending real money on it.
 
Having gold in game doesn't give a competitive advantage, having gems in game doesn't give a competitive advantage. The gem shop does not give a competitive advantage.
 
So, Does gamers A gain a competitive advantage over gamer B by buying items/gems from the GW2 cash shop?
 
 
If you say yes then your either too lazy to look at the gem shop items or you have no clue what constitutes a competitive advantage.
 
GW2 IS NOT P2W.
The Gem Shop offers nothing that can even be considered in a competitive way. People need to get their heads round this very very simple fact.
 
 
Yeah but......
 
Sorry guy's no but's here. Short of A.Net suddenly adding a PVP equipment pack or a 'Reduced pvp damage' potion, i see absolutely no way the gem shop can be used to gain a competitive advantage over another player. Gold is the only maybe, but then from all the videos and reviews I've seen, gold is easily available ingame for anyone who plays PVE, PVP or W-v-W.
 
All the gem shop does is give a helping hand to players who can't play for hours a day and to offer flavor and support items for everyone.

First off. Where did you get your definition and how did you define it?

Second . The list you linked is incomplete and does not have all the items from the last beta event. For instance the 10% defensive boost.

Third if players try to fix the gem price. Third parties will enter to prevent this.

Money does give a competitive advantage. It does so IRL, why would a video game be any different?

let me ask you this Atlan, if i have 5 silver and you have 3 silver... will i do more damage to you? And in the reverse...if you have more silver than I do, will you do more damage to me? How exactly will money give me, or you, a competitive edge? In no way shape or form. It has already been discussed that Karma gives the best armor and rewards. Yes a karma boost can be purchased....and it lasts an hour. Unless you can collect a TON of karma in an hour it's almost not worth it. For some who are incredibly lazy it may be completely worth it, but otherwise, no.

So then I ask again. How will having more gold than the guy next to you give you an advantage? It wont. It will just mean that your wallet is a little bit fatter than his. I mean seriously, have you even PLAYED the game? Have you experienced it first hand? If not then your arguments from here-on-out are INVALID.

MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

5/01/12 8:07:12 AM#226


Originally posted by biggarfoot
1 x kill bonus potion.

How does it work?

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  MMO_REVIEWER

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/09
Posts: 374

MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. let it take us in new directions

5/01/12 8:08:51 AM#227
Originally posted by wowfan1996

 


Originally posted by biggarfoot
1 x kill bonus potion.


How does it work?

 

Its called killing spree If i remember, it lasts 30 seconds. Within 30 seconds you kill a mob, if you do it resets the timer. "How long can you keep it going?" Thats at the end of the items description in game.

MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

5/01/12 8:10:54 AM#228


Originally posted by MMO_REVIEWER
Its called killing spree If i remember, it lasts 30 seconds. Within 30 seconds you kill a mob, if you do it resets the timer. "How long can you keep it going?" Thats at the end of the items description in game.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

Well, then so far I don't see anything that could amount to pay2win for me.

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2548

5/01/12 8:24:28 AM#229


Originally posted by Fadedbomb
VideoLink
 
The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:
-Keys [edit]
-Apparently keys drop in-game according to posters below, editing this out :P!
 
-XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 
 
 
-Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!
 
/end rant :(
 
 
That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.
I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!
 
Thanks for reading!

Its not realy i don't see any real gamebreaking P2W in this gem store.

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  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

5/01/12 8:26:39 AM#230
Originally posted by MMO_REVIEWER
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by Sp1dersbane

The topic of "Is this game P2W?" is getting really old and boring.

 

Play to Win;

Having to pay real money for in game items that are otherwise unavailable. Said items will generally offer a distinct advantage to buyers over players who don't buy. This creates a requirement to spend real cash to remain competitive, thus the 'Pay to Win' business model.

 

Guild Wars 2 Gem Shop Inventory;

  • Costumes
  • Non-combat mini-pet's
  • XP boosts
  • Services
  • Mystic Key's
  • Transmutation Stone
  • Dye Pack's
  • Asuran Bank Portal
  • Instant Repair Canister - Not usable in dungeons
  • Perfect Salvage Kit
  • Resurrection Orb - Not usable in PVP or W v W
  • Unlock bag/bank slot
Meh....look for yourself  ---> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Shop
 
Gems, Based on the MMORPG.com video linked by the OP, are 100 gems for 7 silver.
 
The most expensive single item is 600 gems, that's 42 silver.
 
 
That was the Closed Beta weekend ofc so the price was fixed for players to try it out.
 
So who set's the Gem price after launch?
 
We do. If we only want to spend 1 silver per gem then that's all they get. People will always want more gems and some people will always have more gold. I don't hear anyone screaming about the in game gold farmer who's buying up all the gems for his mini-pet army.
 
Because everything in the gem shop has a gem price, each and every item in there is available to any and all players without them spending real money on it.
 
Having gold in game doesn't give a competitive advantage, having gems in game doesn't give a competitive advantage. The gem shop does not give a competitive advantage.
 
So, Does gamers A gain a competitive advantage over gamer B by buying items/gems from the GW2 cash shop?
 
 
If you say yes then your either too lazy to look at the gem shop items or you have no clue what constitutes a competitive advantage.
 
GW2 IS NOT P2W.
The Gem Shop offers nothing that can even be considered in a competitive way. People need to get their heads round this very very simple fact.
 
 
Yeah but......
 
Sorry guy's no but's here. Short of A.Net suddenly adding a PVP equipment pack or a 'Reduced pvp damage' potion, i see absolutely no way the gem shop can be used to gain a competitive advantage over another player. Gold is the only maybe, but then from all the videos and reviews I've seen, gold is easily available ingame for anyone who plays PVE, PVP or W-v-W.
 
All the gem shop does is give a helping hand to players who can't play for hours a day and to offer flavor and support items for everyone.

First off. Where did you get your definition and how did you define it?

Second . The list you linked is incomplete and does not have all the items from the last beta event. For instance the 10% defensive boost.

Third if players try to fix the gem price. Third parties will enter to prevent this.

Money does give a competitive advantage. It does so IRL, why would a video game be any different?

let me ask you this Atlan, if i have 5 silver and you have 3 silver... will i do more damage to you? And in the reverse...if you have more silver than I do, will you do more damage to me? How exactly will money give me, or you, a competitive edge? In no way shape or form. It has already been discussed that Karma gives the best armor and rewards. Yes a karma boost can be purchased....and it lasts an hour. Unless you can collect a TON of karma in an hour it's almost not worth it. For some who are incredibly lazy it may be completely worth it, but otherwise, no.

So then I ask again. How will having more gold than the guy next to you give you an advantage? It wont. It will just mean that your wallet is a little bit fatter than his. I mean seriously, have you even PLAYED the game? Have you experienced it first hand? If not then your arguments from here-on-out are INVALID.

So you just ignored his defensive boost comment?  Now who is invalid.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4847

5/01/12 8:47:17 AM#231

I'm wondering if the OP knows that the beginning of his OP starts with a link to a video talking about how the cash shop isn't P2W?

These arguments are getting pretty ridiculous. Anyone who has played the BWE can tell you this game isn't P2W. There is absolutely nothing i nthe game that gives you a significant advantage over other players.

The 'biggest' concern on the p2w argument is WvW siege equipment. However, we don't know the exchange rate, but we do know that even with a fully upgraded keep, it's not that hard for you to lose it again. In short, you would basically just be throwing money away on something that not only resets every 2 weeks, but also tends to get traded multiple times daily.

It's so easy to get money in this game, this whole argument is rather obsurd. Anyone who has played the game can verify this, as well.

  udon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1643

5/01/12 10:34:58 AM#232
Originally posted by aesperus

I'm wondering if the OP knows that the beginning of his OP starts with a link to a video talking about how the cash shop isn't P2W?

These arguments are getting pretty ridiculous. Anyone who has played the BWE can tell you this game isn't P2W. There is absolutely nothing i nthe game that gives you a significant advantage over other players.

The 'biggest' concern on the p2w argument is WvW siege equipment. However, we don't know the exchange rate, but we do know that even with a fully upgraded keep, it's not that hard for you to lose it again. In short, you would basically just be throwing money away on something that not only resets every 2 weeks, but also tends to get traded multiple times daily.

It's so easy to get money in this game, this whole argument is rather obsurd. Anyone who has played the game can verify this, as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the price of Gem's set by players as there is not going to be a computer generated supply?  The price is beta is artifically low because Anet created a huge supply but at launch that isn't going to exist and the only ones that will be posted are ones other players put up.

So anytime you use the Gem store regradless of if you purchased the gems with real money or from someone else who purchased the gems with real money Anet makes real profit off of it.

When you get 4 chests and 2 keys in a dungeon and drop into the oh so easy to use Gem store to buy the last two keys so you can open all your chests Anet makes money regradless how you buy the gems.  When you purchase a increased chance to get higher quality drops before a big dungeon run from the gem store Anet makes money regradless how you buy the gems.  

  User Deleted
5/01/12 10:51:01 AM#233
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by aesperus
...
...

When you get 4 chests and 2 keys in a dungeon and drop into the oh so easy to use Gem store to buy the last two keys so you can open all your chests Anet makes money regradless how you buy the gems.  When you purchase a increased chance to get higher quality drops before a big dungeon run from the gem store Anet makes money regradless how you buy the gems.  

 Chest and keys drop everywhere and many chests contain keys.  I picked up 4 chests in the BWE and friends gained enough keys to open all chests they found. Also chests contain, imo, fluff items, there is no potion for 'increased chance to get higher quality drops'.

  It really seems to be a case of, if you want to spend real money, thats ok, but you do not have to.

  Sp1dersbane

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/12
Posts: 50

5/01/12 11:10:01 AM#234
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by Sp1dersbane
Snip

First off. Where did you get your definition and how did you define it?

Second . The list you linked is incomplete and does not have all the items from the last beta event. For instance the 10% defensive boost.

Third if players try to fix the gem price. Third parties will enter to prevent this.

Money does give a competitive advantage. It does so IRL, why would a video game be any different?

 

First off. Reason and logic. To win something is to beat something or someone at a particular task. GW2 is an MMO, everyone on this forum should by now realize that MMO's have 2 core areas (PVP & PVE).



PVE in Guild Wars is a co-operative form of game play. There are no competitive elements to it, there is no benefit of 1 person having something over another, their end goals are exactly the same...kill the damn Dragon. There are no damage meters, there is no kill stealing, players are rewarded based on their activity during the event and everyone gets loot.


PVP (player V's Player) is by it's very nature competitive. In a P2W (Pay to Win) business model you need to entice players into the cash shop to pay for a distinct advantage. You need to have something that if 2 identically skilled players were in a fight and 1 was a have and 1 was a have not, then the have will win. Without that enticement the whole business model will not work, it can't work because without that 'iWIN' object/item there's no "need" to spend.


If that item is Available in game, then there's no "need" to spend money, just time. Without forcing people into a situation of parting with RL cash, the business model becomes pointless and only caters to new players or players who are lagging behind.


So, for a game to be a play 2 win business model it needs to have an item for sale that is 'required' by competitive players to win. It has to force a purchase. It has to force a divide between the have and have nots. GW2 doesn't do this at any level.



Second. I didn't see any Defensive boost in the posted video, it wasn't super clear tbh so I suppose I could have easily missed it. However, what I didn't miss was the descriptions on the GW2 wiki page about some of the more 'risky' items.


Resurrection Orb springs to mind. In the description it clearly states, "Does not work in PVP or W v W". Makes sense really, that would give an unfair advantage. If that defensive boost is a gem purchasable item then it'll follow the same rule of not in PVP.


That defensive boost sounds a lot like the buffs you get for winning/holding onto keeps in W v W. I'm pretty sure that buff is only in a PVE environment and cancels for pvp/W v W (someone who actually played W v W would be able to confirm this)



Third. Supply and demand, that's a real life thing that sets prices. If everyone wants tickles then people will pay a lot of money for tickles. If people want gems then they'll pay a lot of gold for them. By offering 1 gold per hundred gems, they are setting the price. I am curious who you would consider a third party in an in game economy. The whole gold for gems system is an attempt to cut off the gold sellers business, it'll keep the spammers out of your chat box and mail box. You have a somewhat strange view on computer game economics.



"Money does give a competitive advantage. It does so IRL, why would a video game be any different?"

This comment had me scratching my head for a moment. Why would a video game be any different to real life? - I suspect your clutching at straws here. First you need to have a purchasable competitive advantage. As it's been explained above, there are no competitive must haves in the gem shop. Secondly you have to consider the availability of gold or other in game currency. An average player in any mmo will have more than enough currency to get by on just from playing the game. If your that big on pvp that you must have the siege golem then you'll probably farm the money yourself. Thirdly, the only pvp where gold can even be used is W v W. There will be multiple people on each server who will have the blueprints, your unlikely to be lone woolfing against a whole server so I see no personal advantage of having siege weapons, they benefit your whole server.



The bottom line is, if there's another way to get something in game then the gem purchase isn't required to remain competitive. If there's no requirement to purchase Gem items to remain competitive then the Game can not be Pay 2 win. There is no evidence to support the P2W claims, unless your next line of attack is to say you need to spend in game currency to win in game prizes.

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

5/01/12 11:23:22 AM#235

Well this "defensive boost" thing sounds to me like the worst news since the absence of general chat. If chests can contain stat boosts it might be a true deal breaker. Now I'm quite convinced that it was the right decision to wait until all details about the CS are revealed.


Originally posted by Sp1dersbane
The bottom line is, if there's another way to get something in game then the gem purchase isn't required to remain competitive.

Not true. Even if there's technically a way to get something in game it might require a prohibitively large time investment to obtain.

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  Fir3line

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/08
Posts: 794

5/01/12 11:49:48 AM#236
yea, I was a bit disapointed to find 10% more damage scroll for one hour, and 10% less damage taken for one hour scrolls in the chests. I really hope they change that

"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."

  Sp1dersbane

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/12
Posts: 50

5/01/12 12:07:23 PM#237
Originally posted by wowfan1996

Well this "defensive boost" thing sounds to me like the worst news since the absence of general chat. If chests can contain stat boosts it might be a true deal breaker. Now I'm quite convinced that it was the right decision to wait until all details about the CS are revealed.


Originally posted by Sp1dersbane
The bottom line is, if there's another way to get something in game then the gem purchase isn't required to remain competitive.

Not true. Even if there's technically a way to get something in game it might require a prohibitively large time investment to obtain.

 

"wait until all details about the CS are revealed." - The average "ZOMG P2W" poster can't grasp that concept




It's not pay to win if you can win without paying. It's a pretty simple concept. I'm not sure P2W can be explained any simpler than that.

You also need to read what I posted about the defensive boost. If it follows suit with some of the other "advantaged" items on the gem shop then it'll be prohibited in pvp areas.

Mystic chest contents



"Even if there's technically a way to get something in game it might require a prohibitively large time investment to obtain." - define "Prohibitively Large Time Investment". Spending 2 hours a night farming gold could be considered large for some people, others may consider it a warm up. A long time for you could be a short time for someone else.

I think you'll find that you only speak for yourself when implying an item may take too long to farm. Too long to you. Some people like farming, others who feel it'll eat into their fun time can buy gems for in game gold then spend gems in the gem store.

  nolic1

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 673

5/01/12 12:19:54 PM#238
Originally posted by Fir3line
yea, I was a bit disapointed to find 10% more damage scroll for one hour, and 10% less damage taken for one hour scrolls in the chests. I really hope they change that

Go to any food merchant in game and the y sell food that does the same thing for little to no cost I think its 40cp or something and from what I seen you could craft even better food. As for all the other stuff mentioned here I wwont get into it cause other have explained it all already.


To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

5/01/12 12:28:28 PM#239
Originally posted by Fir3line
yea, I was a bit disapointed to find 10% more damage scroll for one hour, and 10% less damage taken for one hour scrolls in the chests. I really hope they change that

PvE only items. Hardly worth having, let alone worth stressing about someone else having.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

5/01/12 12:32:18 PM#240
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Fir3line
yea, I was a bit disapointed to find 10% more damage scroll for one hour, and 10% less damage taken for one hour scrolls in the chests. I really hope they change that

PvE only items. Hardly worth having, let alone worth stressing about someone else having.

and why does it matter if the buffs drop in game because the keys in the shop are only a convenience to open the chests if you do not have or are too lazy to go find a key.. of course when we know more about the butler golem that will help as well.

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