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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 is apparently PayToWin based on this video... :(

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245 posts found
  likwidsage

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/07
Posts: 91

5/01/12 3:36:43 AM#201

XP Boost doesn't matter. The leveling in this game is already easy, and you get like 95% of your XP from completing events, story quests, and hearts, barely anything from killing.\

And the Gem thing barely has any effect on anything at all, with the exception of blueprints (which isn't a game breaker by any means) . 

I don't see how any of this makes it pay to win. If little, no effect things, such as this deters you from buying an otherwise close to perfect game, I'm afraid there is no game for you to play.

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

5/01/12 3:40:38 AM#202
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Atlan99
 

 

So we have gotten to it makes them money.

Now how does arenanet make money if the drop rates for the chest and key are equal?

Believe it or not, sometimes people will have more chests than keys and sometimes people will have more keys than chests. People have already reported on it many times.

 

The problem you are apparently having is that you take a leap and say that because they want to make money, they must make the keys drop less. When in reality, peope will buy them for convenience even if they drop the same amount. Gold vs gems. Which payment method do you prefer?

 

Additionally, they will make money on the plethora of other items in the shop.

I'll answer the question for you then. They Don't. The only way they would make money off of mystic keys, is if they create a demand for them. So they have to make less keys than chests in order for it work. It's not difficult to understand.

Then you use gold to buy gems and then you get a key. Or you pay gold to someone on the market for a key.

 

Even if it were true that mystics keys drop substantially less than mystic boxes, I fail to see your point. You can still get keys in game with gold.

 

And really, you don't know. You assume. And then you say that anyone that doesn't assume with you is willfully ignorant. 

I thought we got this past this. You admitted that Arenanet  made the Mystic Chest and Mystic Key to make money.

The only way they make money is to make less keys than chests. 

A)If they make more keys - there are plenty of keys, nobody buys key. Arenanet makes no money

B)If they make an equal amount - some people have keys, some don't. Players sell to those that don't and undercut arenanet. Arenanet again makes no money.

C)If they make more chests than keys - very few people have enough keys, the majority don't. Some people buy keys. Arenanet makes money.

Now if they are designed to make money, then C is the only viable solution.

I believe you are being willfully ignorant if you cannot follow the line of logic to it's conclusion. It's pretty straight forward and basic in design. Anybody should be able to deduce the results.

  User Deleted
5/01/12 3:46:25 AM#203
Originally posted by wrightstuf

Cosmetic items are a huge advantage.

I know, because i go out of my way to have the best looking character i can. In PvP, people will stop for a split second to check out how cool i look. Thats all the edge i need to waste em.

You mean...something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKfbSHW9uGA

;P

Originally posted by Atlan99

That it is why they sell the key in the item shop.

Now try again. Why did arenanet create the mystic chest and mystic key? Why not just give the player the loot inside?

Because there are chest with required keys in GW1 that work more or less same way (buy key for gold/very small drop rate to open chest, in GW2 scenario its buy gems for gold to buy key to open chest OR buy them from market for gold from players that jad them dropped/used gems)
  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5548

5/01/12 4:07:56 AM#204
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Atlan99

So we have gotten to it makes them money.

Now how does arenanet make money if the drop rates for the chest and key are equal?

Believe it or not, sometimes people will have more chests than keys and sometimes people will have more keys than chests. People have already reported on it many times.

 

The problem you are apparently having is that you take a leap and say that because they want to make money, they must make the keys drop less. When in reality, peope will buy them for convenience even if they drop the same amount. Gold vs gems. Which payment method do you prefer?

 

Additionally, they will make money on the plethora of other items in the shop.

I'll answer the question for you then. They Don't. The only way they would make money off of mystic keys, is if they create a demand for them. So they have to make less keys than chests in order for it work. It's not difficult to understand.

Then you use gold to buy gems and then you get a key. Or you pay gold to someone on the market for a key.

 

Even if it were true that mystics keys drop substantially less than mystic boxes, I fail to see your point. You can still get keys in game with gold.

 

And really, you don't know. You assume. And then you say that anyone that doesn't assume with you is willfully ignorant. 

I thought we got this past this. You admitted that Arenanet  made the Mystic Chest and Mystic Key to make money.

The only way they make money is to make less keys than chests. 

A)If they make more keys - there are plenty of keys, nobody buys key. Arenanet makes no money

B)If they make an equal amount - some people have keys, some don't. Players sell to those that don't and undercut arenanet. Arenanet again makes no money.

C)If they make more chests than keys - very few people have enough keys, the majority don't. Some people buy keys. Arenanet makes money.

Now if they are designed to make money, then C is the only viable solution.

I believe you are being willfully ignorant if you cannot follow the line of logic to it's conclusion. It's pretty straight forward and basic in design. Anybody should be able to deduce the results.

You assume that people will open every chest. If people can find keys for only a limited amount of chests, they may decide to just destroy them since their contents are not worth the cost of a key, which in turn brings keys back into line with boxes.

 

To me it looks like the keys aren't going to be the great money maker they hope it will be. If anything, people will be selling the keys they find on the market for gold in order to trade the gold for gems. Or they'll just keep the gold and spend it on a nice flowery hat. And that is the crux of it. If people can buy keys on the market, whether or not there are less of them available, why would they spend gems? 

 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

5/01/12 4:13:48 AM#205
Originally posted by colddog04
 

You assume that people will open every chest. If people can find keys for only a limited amount of chests, they may decide to just destroy them since their contents are not worth the cost of a key, which in turn brings keys back into line with boxes.

 

To me it looks like the keys aren't going to be the great money maker they hope it will be. If anything, people will be selling the keys they find on the market for gold in order to trade the gold for gems. And that is the crux of it. If people can buy keys on the market, whether or not there are less of them available, why would they spend gems? 

 

 

Originally posted by Atlan99

The beta excuse is getting old and doesn't deflect any criticism. It does not make any points less valid. The whole point of beta is to point out flaws. So they can properly addressed not swept under the rug.

No but the 10%defensive buff will let you take less damage. That is an advanatge. So are the xp boost, crafting boost and karma boost. 

Having a mystic key in the cash shop means that it is designed to drop less frequently than the chests. This is the implication of selling it for gems. Unless you are suggesting that Arenanet are idiots and designed a redundant item for the cash shop.

Coldog

"You don't know this. You are basically pulling shit out of thin air again.

And obviously it is a redundant item. It exists in both the cash shop and in drops and quests in game."

 

That is my argument followed by yours. That was your statement that I disproved. You yourself have admitted that they were designed to make money. The only way to make money is have less keys than chests.

You can't keep moving the goalposts when you don't like the results of a discussion. You do this in every thread because you can't admit being wrong. You try and change the argument when proven wrong, again and again.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5548

5/01/12 4:16:06 AM#206
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by colddog04
 

You assume that people will open every chest. If people can find keys for only a limited amount of chests, they may decide to just destroy them since their contents are not worth the cost of a key, which in turn brings keys back into line with boxes.

 

To me it looks like the keys aren't going to be the great money maker they hope it will be. If anything, people will be selling the keys they find on the market for gold in order to trade the gold for gems. And that is the crux of it. If people can buy keys on the market, whether or not there are less of them available, why would they spend gems? 

 

 

Originally posted by Atlan99

The beta excuse is getting old and doesn't deflect any criticism. It does not make any points less valid. The whole point of beta is to point out flaws. So they can properly addressed not swept under the rug.

No but the 10%defensive buff will let you take less damage. That is an advanatge. So are the xp boost, crafting boost and karma boost. 

Having a mystic key in the cash shop means that it is designed to drop less frequently than the chests. This is the implication of selling it for gems. Unless you are suggesting that Arenanet are idiots and designed a redundant item for the cash shop.

Coldog

"You don't know this. You are basically pulling shit out of thin air again.

And obviously it is a redundant item. It exists in both the cash shop and in drops and quests in game."

 

That is my argument followed by yours. That was your statement that I disproved. You yourself have admitted that they were designed to make money. The only way to make money is have less keys than chests.

You can't keep moving the goalposts when you don't like the results of a discussion. You do this in every thread because you can't admit being wrong. You try and change the argument when proven wrong, again and again.

No. You don't know that the keys are going to drop less often. You pulled it out of thin air. This is still, and will be until we get some more data, valid.

 

You disproved nothing. You merely tryed to prove something without any evidence.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

5/01/12 4:19:43 AM#207
Originally posted by colddog04
 

No. You don't know that the keys are going to drop less often. You pulled it out of thin air. This is still, and will be until we get some more data, valid.

 

You disproved nothing. You merely tryed to prove something without any evidence.

How does arenanet make money if keys drop as frequently as chests?

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5548

5/01/12 4:21:55 AM#208
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by colddog04

No. You don't know that the keys are going to drop less often. You pulled it out of thin air. This is still, and will be until we get some more data, valid.

 

You disproved nothing. You merely tryed to prove something without any evidence.

How does arenanet make money if keys drop frequently in game?

How does ArenaNet make money if they drop infrequently?

 

That's what this was trying to explain to you:

 

 

You assume that people will open every chest. If people can find keys for only a limited amount of chests, they may decide to just destroy them since their contents are not worth the cost of a key, which in turn brings keys back into line with boxes.

To me it looks like the keys aren't going to be the great money maker they hope it will be. If anything, people will be selling the keys they find on the market for gold in order to trade the gold for gems. Or they'll just keep the gold and spend it on a nice flowery hat. And that is the crux of it. If people can buy keys on the market, whether or not there are less of them available, why would they spend gems on them? 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1010

5/01/12 4:24:19 AM#209

I got 3 key drops by the time I hit level 10 but I didnt get a chest.  The keys are soulbound but the locked chest isnt, but on opening the chest the chest is soulbound and stays intact and in your inventory until you double click it to get the items, then the chest will disapear, the items you recieve are all soulbound.  So if you find a chest you can either sell the chest locked or wait for a key to drop, or buy a key.

I personaly will keep the chests until a key drops, though if I'm needing some gold then I will sell. There is no armour or weapons in any chest I opened only buffs and potions that can morph you for 15 minutes.

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

5/01/12 4:27:39 AM#210
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by colddog04

No. You don't know that the keys are going to drop less often. You pulled it out of thin air. This is still, and will be until we get some more data, valid.

 

You disproved nothing. You merely tryed to prove something without any evidence.

How does arenanet make money if keys drop frequently in game?

How does ArenaNet make money if they drop infrequently?

 

That's what this was trying to explain to you:

 

 

You assume that people will open every chest. If people can find keys for only a limited amount of chests, they may decide to just destroy them since their contents are not worth the cost of a key, which in turn brings keys back into line with boxes.

To me it looks like the keys aren't going to be the great money maker they hope it will be. If anything, people will be selling the keys they find on the market for gold in order to trade the gold for gems. Or they'll just keep the gold and spend it on a nice flowery hat. And that is the crux of it. If people can buy keys on the market, whether or not there are less of them available, why would they spend gems on them? 

Arenanet makes money if keys drop infrequently through the cash shop. Some players will spend money on gems. Some players will use those gems to buy keys.

  Deolus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/30/05
Posts: 391

5/01/12 4:34:04 AM#211
From what I hear of the contents of the chests mainly being temporary buffs and fun items, and with inventory space limited, if I find I'm getting cluttered up with chests and no keys they will definitely be getting destroyed.
  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1010

5/01/12 4:39:00 AM#212
Originally posted by Deolus
From what I hear of the contents of the chests mainly being temporary buffs and fun items, and with inventory space limited, if I find I'm getting cluttered up with chests and no keys they will definitely be getting destroyed.

Why destroy them? when you can sell them, or send them to friends or guildies that will use them.

  Tyroki

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 176

5/01/12 4:49:05 AM#213

You can also get the Mystic Chest keys from Mystic Chests as well.

That happened to me.

Heck, you can even get the keys from some personal story rewards.

The keys are only in the shop for those who want to get them easily.

XP boosts are there for those who want them, but they aren't that big a deal. The game is enjoyable, and taking ones time is actually more preferable to rushing. That won't stop some people from rushing to the end, but that's their choice.

Gaining fast XP isn't exactly helpful for PVP as you get raised to max level anyway.

I can see it maybe being useful for World vs World though, as even at max it doesn't spoonfeed you everything else unlike arena. But that's to keep Arena a level playing field.

MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P

  Sp1dersbane

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/12
Posts: 50

5/01/12 5:18:37 AM#214

The topic of "Is this game P2W?" is getting really old and boring.

 

Play to Win;

Having to pay real money for in game items that are otherwise unavailable. Said items will generally offer a distinct advantage to buyers over players who don't buy. This creates a requirement to spend real cash to remain competitive, thus the 'Pay to Win' business model.

 

Guild Wars 2 Gem Shop Inventory;

  • Costumes
  • Non-combat mini-pet's
  • XP boosts
  • Services
  • Mystic Key's
  • Transmutation Stone
  • Dye Pack's
  • Asuran Bank Portal
  • Instant Repair Canister - Not usable in dungeons
  • Perfect Salvage Kit
  • Resurrection Orb - Not usable in PVP or W v W
  • Unlock bag/bank slot
Meh....look for yourself  ---> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Shop
 
Gems, Based on the MMORPG.com video linked by the OP, are 100 gems for 7 silver.
 
The most expensive single item is 600 gems, that's 42 silver.
 
 
That was the Closed Beta weekend ofc so the price was fixed for players to try it out.
 
So who set's the Gem price after launch?
 
We do. If we only want to spend 1 silver per gem then that's all they get. People will always want more gems and some people will always have more gold. I don't hear anyone screaming about the in game gold farmer who's buying up all the gems for his mini-pet army.
 
Because everything in the gem shop has a gem price, each and every item in there is available to any and all players without them spending real money on it.
 
Having gold in game doesn't give a competitive advantage, having gems in game doesn't give a competitive advantage. The gem shop does not give a competitive advantage.
 
So, Does gamers A gain a competitive advantage over gamer B by buying items/gems from the GW2 cash shop?
 
 
If you say yes then your either too lazy to look at the gem shop items or you have no clue what constitutes a competitive advantage.
 
GW2 IS NOT P2W.
The Gem Shop offers nothing that can even be considered in a competitive way. People need to get their heads round this very very simple fact.
 
 
Yeah but......
 
Sorry guy's no but's here. Short of A.Net suddenly adding a PVP equipment pack or a 'Reduced pvp damage' potion, i see absolutely no way the gem shop can be used to gain a competitive advantage over another player. Gold is the only maybe, but then from all the videos and reviews I've seen, gold is easily available ingame for anyone who plays PVE, PVP or W-v-W.
 
All the gem shop does is give a helping hand to players who can't play for hours a day and to offer flavor and support items for everyone.

  IPolygon

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 702

5/01/12 5:29:59 AM#215
Still you can't p2w pve. Whatever you do or buy has got nothing to do with me, if you can't use any boosts in pvp at all (which is the case). P2W is increasing your power level by investing real money into the game. You can't do that in GW2 or GW1 for that matter. What some of you are talking about are convenience items.
  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1010

5/01/12 5:30:59 AM#216
Originally posted by Sp1dersbane

The topic of "Is this game P2W?" is getting really old and boring.

 

Play to Win;

Having to pay real money for in game items that are otherwise unavailable. Said items will generally offer a distinct advantage to buyers over players who don't buy. This creates a requirement to spend real cash to remain competitive, thus the 'Pay to Win' business model.

 

Guild Wars 2 Gem Shop Inventory;

  • Costumes
  • Non-combat mini-pet's
  • XP boosts
  • Services
  • Mystic Key's
  • Transmutation Stone
  • Dye Pack's
  • Asuran Bank Portal
  • Instant Repair Canister - Not usable in dungeons
  • Perfect Salvage Kit
  • Resurrection Orb - Not usable in PVP or W v W
  • Unlock bag/bank slot
Meh....look for yourself  ---> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Shop
 
Gems, Based on the MMORPG.com video linked by the OP, are 100 gems for 7 silver.
 
The most expensive single item is 600 gems, that's 42 silver.
 
 
That was the Closed Beta weekend ofc so the price was fixed for players to try it out.
 
So who set's the Gem price after launch?
 
We do. If we only want to spend 1 silver per gem then that's all they get. People will always want more gems and some people will always have more gold. I don't hear anyone screaming about the in game gold farmer who's buying up all the gems for his mini-pet army.
 
Because everything in the gem shop has a gem price, each and every item in there is available to any and all players without them spending real money on it.
 
Having gold in game doesn't give a competitive advantage, having gems in game doesn't give a competitive advantage. The gem shop does not give a competitive advantage.
 
So, Does gamers A gain a competitive advantage over gamer B by buying items/gems from the GW2 cash shop?
 
 
If you say yes then your either too lazy to look at the gem shop items or you have no clue what constitutes a competitive advantage.
 
GW2 IS NOT P2W.
The Gem Shop offers nothing that can even be considered in a competitive way. People need to get their heads round this very very simple fact.
 
 
Yeah but......
 
Sorry guy's no but's here. Short of A.Net suddenly adding a PVP equipment pack or a 'Reduced pvp damage' potion, i see absolutely no way the gem shop can be used to gain a competitive advantage over another player. Gold is the only maybe, but then from all the videos and reviews I've seen, gold is easily available ingame for anyone who plays PVE, PVP or W-v-W.
 
All the gem shop does is give a helping hand to players who can't play for hours a day and to offer flavor and support items for everyone.

The best explanation I've seen on this site in regards to the cash shop, and if you still don't understand then there is no hope for you.

 

Good post sp1dersbane +10

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

5/01/12 5:43:09 AM#217
Originally posted by Sp1dersbane

The topic of "Is this game P2W?" is getting really old and boring.

 

Play to Win;

Having to pay real money for in game items that are otherwise unavailable. Said items will generally offer a distinct advantage to buyers over players who don't buy. This creates a requirement to spend real cash to remain competitive, thus the 'Pay to Win' business model.

 

Guild Wars 2 Gem Shop Inventory;

  • Costumes
  • Non-combat mini-pet's
  • XP boosts
  • Services
  • Mystic Key's
  • Transmutation Stone
  • Dye Pack's
  • Asuran Bank Portal
  • Instant Repair Canister - Not usable in dungeons
  • Perfect Salvage Kit
  • Resurrection Orb - Not usable in PVP or W v W
  • Unlock bag/bank slot
Meh....look for yourself  ---> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Shop
 
Gems, Based on the MMORPG.com video linked by the OP, are 100 gems for 7 silver.
 
The most expensive single item is 600 gems, that's 42 silver.
 
 
That was the Closed Beta weekend ofc so the price was fixed for players to try it out.
 
So who set's the Gem price after launch?
 
We do. If we only want to spend 1 silver per gem then that's all they get. People will always want more gems and some people will always have more gold. I don't hear anyone screaming about the in game gold farmer who's buying up all the gems for his mini-pet army.
 
Because everything in the gem shop has a gem price, each and every item in there is available to any and all players without them spending real money on it.
 
Having gold in game doesn't give a competitive advantage, having gems in game doesn't give a competitive advantage. The gem shop does not give a competitive advantage.
 
So, Does gamers A gain a competitive advantage over gamer B by buying items/gems from the GW2 cash shop?
 
 
If you say yes then your either too lazy to look at the gem shop items or you have no clue what constitutes a competitive advantage.
 
GW2 IS NOT P2W.
The Gem Shop offers nothing that can even be considered in a competitive way. People need to get their heads round this very very simple fact.
 
 
Yeah but......
 
Sorry guy's no but's here. Short of A.Net suddenly adding a PVP equipment pack or a 'Reduced pvp damage' potion, i see absolutely no way the gem shop can be used to gain a competitive advantage over another player. Gold is the only maybe, but then from all the videos and reviews I've seen, gold is easily available ingame for anyone who plays PVE, PVP or W-v-W.
 
All the gem shop does is give a helping hand to players who can't play for hours a day and to offer flavor and support items for everyone.

First off. Where did you get your definition and how did you define it?

Second . The list you linked is incomplete and does not have all the items from the last beta event. For instance the 10% defensive boost.

Third if players try to fix the gem price. Third parties will enter to prevent this.

Money does give a competitive advantage. It does so IRL, why would a video game be any different?

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

5/01/12 5:45:09 AM#218


Originally posted by Sp1dersbane
Having to pay real money for in game items that are otherwise unavailable.

Consider the following: Zod rune in D2 used to have such a small chance to drop that probably 90% of D2 players never saw a legit Zod. Still, it did drop sometimes. Extremely rarely, yes, but it was possible to obtain it in-game. Yet if D2 had a CS and Zod was on sale there, D2 wouldn't be pay2win according to your definition. ;)
 
---

There wouldn't be a holy war on the subject if one could define pay2win precisely. In borderline cases it boils down to common sense and personal preferences.

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  Deolus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/30/05
Posts: 391

5/01/12 5:49:38 AM#219
Originally posted by biggarfoot
Originally posted by Deolus
From what I hear of the contents of the chests mainly being temporary buffs and fun items, and with inventory space limited, if I find I'm getting cluttered up with chests and no keys they will definitely be getting destroyed.

Why destroy them? when you can sell them, or send them to friends or guildies that will use them.

Yes , will definitely do that. What I meant was, I will destroy them if they are becoming a hindrance :)

  Gentl3Man

Novice Member

Joined: 4/04/12
Posts: 22

5/01/12 5:52:21 AM#220

Ive playd gw(1) and i was in beta and all i can say is that there is no way it will be p2w game even in gw u could get most of exp scrolls and buff from drop.

 

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