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Continent of the Ninth Seal

Continent of the Ninth (C9) 

General Discussion  » Sexist game design?

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23 posts found
  possiblewar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 4

 
OP  4/28/12 12:37:57 AM#1
What is up with not being able to create a female fighter or hunter? Or even a male shaman? The models are already in game why not make use of them and allow players the choice.
  faxnadu

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/08
Posts: 953

4/28/12 12:43:17 AM#2
Originally posted by possiblewar
What is up with not being able to create a female fighter or hunter? Or even a male shaman? The models are already in game why not make use of them and allow players the choice.

i agree since this should have been forgotten already from the past. it is bad for the game in today aswell when the game is excatly like vindictus . uh oh...

  SaintGraye

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/12
Posts: 109

4/28/12 2:10:25 AM#3

There is nothing sexist about gender-locked classes, save they remain so for strictly exploitive purposes.

To whit: assume a warrior class is solely male and a cleric female in order to appeal to the classic archetypes of the "fierce" man and "protective" woman. This is an acceptable, if somewhat stale trope. The example becomes sexist, passively so, only if the characteristics of each are explicity exagerrated. For instance, the cleric class is restricted to wearing very skimpy outfits that reveal ample cleavage whereas the male becomes ever more hidden behind layers of steel. You should note that this is both male- and female-oriented sexism, as it implies both a non-existent level of objectivity in respect to women and a prototypically oafish characteristic of men (in short, the "women are whores" and "men are all potential murderers" argument).

As to Continent of the Ninth, the relative "sexism" of their character-design is subjective. Sexism itself largely is, hence we have misogynistic/misandrist men and woman alike, the world over... but that's largely irrelevant to this thread. My point is this: there may be extenuating circumstances which prohibit the developers from adding non-gender-locked classes.

The most obvious, if we were to speculate, would be a mere lack of resources. True, perhaps the models are all "there in game" (as you put it) but integrating them seamlessly demands someone's time, for which they must be compensated. Perhaps select animations are missing or improperly keyed? Or certain weapons/armor don't morph properly when equipped? Perhaps adding the opposite gender would necessitate a complete revamp of certain mechanics (such as character creation, which must now be extended to accomodate such)? In any case, there's work to be done and it won't be free. Then again, perhaps there is some manner of engine limitation or their publisher merely refused to allow it (which in turn might be linked to their marketing of the product which, quite often, is blatantly sexist stuff).

Whatever the case, please, at least attempt to consider the possibilities before making such flagrant accusations. True, it makes for decent discourse, and you get eccentrics like me popping out of the woodwork to argue about it, but I hardly think that merits the hassle...

  possiblewar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 4

 
OP  4/28/12 8:24:55 AM#4
Originally posted by SaintGraye

There is nothing sexist about gender-locked classes, save they remain so for strictly exploitive purposes.

To whit: assume a warrior class is solely male and a cleric female in order to appeal to the classic archetypes of the "fierce" man and "protective" woman. This is an acceptable, if somewhat stale trope. The example becomes sexist, passively so, only if the characteristics of each are explicity exagerrated. For instance, the cleric class is restricted to wearing very skimpy outfits that reveal ample cleavage whereas the male becomes ever more hidden behind layers of steel. You should note that this is both male- and female-oriented sexism, as it implies both a non-existent level of objectivity in respect to women and a prototypically oafish characteristic of men (in short, the "women are whores" and "men are all potential murderers" argument).

The males ARE being more covered up. And the females are becoming less covered. And, because I have tits, I can't be a fighter or hunter?

As to Continent of the Ninth, the relative "sexism" of their character-design is subjective. Sexism itself largely is, hence we have misogynistic/misandrist men and woman alike, the world over... but that's largely irrelevant to this thread. My point is this: there may be extenuating circumstances which prohibit the developers from adding non-gender-locked classes.

Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the belief that a characteristic inherent in one's sex necessarily adversely affects one's ability, even if that characteristic does not have that effect.

The most obvious, if we were to speculate, would be a mere lack of resources. True, perhaps the models are all "there in game" (as you put it) but integrating them seamlessly demands someone's time, for which they must be compensated. Perhaps select animations are missing or improperly keyed? Or certain weapons/armor don't morph properly when equipped? Perhaps adding the opposite gender would necessitate a complete revamp of certain mechanics (such as character creation, which must now be extended to accomodate such)? In any case, there's work to be done and it won't be free. Then again, perhaps there is some manner of engine limitation or their publisher merely refused to allow it (which in turn might be linked to their marketing of the product which, quite often, is blatantly sexist stuff).

So you mean to tell me it made it all the way to BETA without someone looking at the game and saying "whoops, there might be a lawsuit here for discrimination."

Whatever the case, please, at least attempt to consider the possibilities before making such flagrant accusations. True, it makes for decent discourse, and you get eccentrics like me popping out of the woodwork to argue about it, but I hardly think that merits the hassle...

How much are you being paid to be their lapdog?

 

  SaintGraye

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/12
Posts: 109

4/29/12 2:06:41 AM#5


Originally posted by possiblewar
The males ARE being more covered up. And the females are becoming less covered

Passive-sexism it is, which was precisely as I anticipated and, indeed, is the relative norm. From God of War to Final Fantasy, Hollywood to Bollywood, comic-books (and the so-called "male gaze") to television (and the "tit-pan") that sort of sexist approach is so common it hardly merits singling out any individual case.
 
As I said, it all comes back to the same old adage: sex sells.
It is, however, no more sexist that the woman is uncovered than that the man is. Bear that in mind.
 

Originally posted by possiblewar
Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the belief that a characteristic inherent in one's sex necessarily adversely affects one's ability, even if that characteristic does not have that effect.

...was there a point to posting this as a reply? I really cannot comprehend how it has any bearing, whatsoever, on what I wrote.


Originally posted by possiblewar
So you mean to tell me it made it all the way to BETA without someone looking at the game and saying "whoops, there might be a lawsuit here for discrimination."

Precisely.
1) It is not the first game to feature this approach to character design (that is, scantily clad women, heavily armored men).
2) It is not the first game, nor only modern one, with genderlocked classes. By way of example I would refer you to Seven Souls Online or Path of Exile.
3) There is no legal precedent for gender-discrimination in a videogame via the lack a class-selection option. In other words: by all means, attempt to litigate over this and you'll end up laughed out of court. Any court. Anywhere.


Originally posted by possiblewar
How much are you being paid to be their lapdog?

Yes, yes, how dare I approach the situation logically as opposed to screaming "sexism, sexism, sexism!!!" I must be a shill, there's simply no alternative explanation. How very astute of you to notice.

  Sogi-Ya

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 53

4/29/12 1:33:25 PM#6

yes the game needs to be gender un-locked, but wont make things any better since the female warriors will still be running around in a crotchless nighty.

the developers brought up the issue of gender unlocking on the game's forums before the VIP test, sadly it didn't really go anywhere since the forums are kinda crappy and most players don't use them, but it was stated that making the models and armor wasn't an issue if the global player base wanted it.

I turned the boob slider all the way down and spent a small fortune on remodeling books trying to find the best combination of equipment appearances to simulate a pair of pants for my character.

for the record: I'm male, over 30, married, and play a shaman not because it's a tits and ass side show attraction but because IMO it's the funnest/best class.

  Vutar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/09
Posts: 749

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -George Santayana

6/27/12 9:05:40 PM#7

Why is there always some activist trying to shove their views into MMOs?

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2606

6/27/12 9:10:54 PM#8

This game is fairly old in comparison to similar games.  That's one reason for the gender-locked classes.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/27/12 9:13:44 PM#9

I don't get it...

When a female is portrayed as a warrior-type with an incredibly unlikely skillset, while being scantily clad as would be expected from say, a barbarian, it's sexist.

Then when females are portrayed in a more historically accurate light, say, as a nun that never shows any hint of skin - also sexist.

I think you lot grasping at straws for the sake of feminism can all f**k off.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Brothelm

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/12
Posts: 1

7/01/12 8:23:55 AM#10

Characters look great....compared to most other mmos....

  Banquetto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1025

7/07/12 8:39:39 PM#11


Originally posted by SaintGraye
3) There is no legal precedent for gender-discrimination in a videogame via the lack a class-selection option. In other words: by all means, attempt to litigate over this and you'll end up laughed out of court. Any court. Anywhere.

If only someone had sued over the gender-discrimination in Ms. Pac-Man, a precedent could have been set!

  JazKW347

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 55

"Times up! let's do this!"
-L. Jenkins

7/10/12 9:13:13 PM#12

The Gender locking did annoy me at first but that really is my only gripe. Also think about this a male witch-blade. Witch-Blade......WITCH-Blade...."WITCH" (Warlock-blade sounds down right derpy grammatical wise.)

  SkullyWoods

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 184

If victory is sweet, virtual victory is not Sweet'n Low

7/10/12 9:18:13 PM#13
Originally posted by JazKW347

The Gender locking did annoy me at first but that really is my only gripe. Also think about this a male witch-blade. Witch-Blade......WITCH-Blade...."WITCH" (Warlock-blade sounds down right derpy grammatical wise.)

Hey I see you tried it out Jaz. What did you think? Was it what you were looking for at all? I've yet to try it.

#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  JazKW347

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 55

"Times up! let's do this!"
-L. Jenkins

7/10/12 9:22:03 PM#14

Very decent game for an F2P. Combat is smooth character customization is pretty good. My only gripe is the gender-locked classes.

  SkullyWoods

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 184

If victory is sweet, virtual victory is not Sweet'n Low

7/10/12 9:23:53 PM#15

Cool cool. Not a fan of gender lock either but I can overlook it if the game is fun.

#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2150

7/10/12 9:30:16 PM#16

this is not about 'activism' this is about not allowing groups, corps, w/e to continue to portray men and women in this fashion. 'passive sexism' doesn't deserve mention? agreed with the previous responder who asked who's lap that poster was in when they wrote that.

these are no longer 'stale tropes' these are things that must be changed. it is no longer acceptable for men and women to be continually pushed into these stereotypes.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Reaper1122

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/04
Posts: 41

7/13/12 5:44:24 AM#17
Originally posted by chelan

this is not about 'activism' this is about not allowing groups, corps, w/e to continue to portray men and women in this fashion. 'passive sexism' doesn't deserve mention? agreed with the previous responder who asked who's lap that poster was in when they wrote that.

these are no longer 'stale tropes' these are things that must be changed. it is no longer acceptable for men and women to be continually pushed into these stereotypes.

When you become the majority of gamers etc... and when it stops showing to stats to corps that's whats appealing and hurts sales it will change, however, thats clearly not whats happening or at least to a point it needs to if order for it to happen.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16944

7/15/12 2:22:12 PM#18
Originally posted by chelan

this is not about 'activism' this is about not allowing groups, corps, w/e to continue to portray men and women in this fashion. 'passive sexism' doesn't deserve mention? agreed with the previous responder who asked who's lap that poster was in when they wrote that.

these are no longer 'stale tropes' these are things that must be changed. it is no longer acceptable for men and women to be continually pushed into these stereotypes.

Nah.

If we want to accept the fact that games can be more than a past time and more than just a commodity then we are going to have to accept that the developers are actually artisans and artists.

Have you ever seent he movie "Secretary"? How about "The Perils of Gwendoline" or "Tie me up, Tie me down"?

should we abolish those movies because they paint women in a certain light?

And there is plenty of art out there that depicts not only women but children, men, people of different races, etc, in a way that would definitely be very uncomfortable to some.

This doesnt' mean that people have to like it but it does mean that people can make their own choices. Not everyone has the same vision of life that everyone else has and not everyone wants things to be "politically correct" and white washed.

My thought has always been that as long as people aren't forced to view/watch/experience such material then it doesn't have to affect you.

Walk away, pay admission to another movie, go to different art exhibits and read different books. Play different games.

This is how these developers wanted to portray their characters. It's their game and their offering. You can acknowldge that it's not your thing and move on just like others can say "ok, it's sort of fun, why not"?

 

  User Deleted
7/15/12 2:30:33 PM#19

Gender-locking classes is simply laziness. They don't want to put the extra effort into creating armor sets for two genders of a class, because it essentially would double their workload in that area.

The gameplay looks decent and all in this game, but I absolutely cannot support a game with such limitations and will pass it by.

  Uccisore

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 89

9/06/12 8:12:01 PM#20
Originally posted by possiblewar
Originally posted by SaintGraye

The males ARE being more covered up. And the females are becoming less covered. And, because I have tits, I can't be a fighter or hunter?

 

 

Well, the REAL reason you can't be a fighter is that you have scrawny girl arms that would snap like brittle twigs if you tried to parry a strong blow with a shield (assuming you could lift said shield).  The tits aren't really the problem.

But USUALLY we're polite and don't bring that up.  Some fantasy worlds have dragons, some don't.  Some fantasy worlds have women that can fight as well as men, some don't.  Problem?

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