Originally posted by EvilGeek

 

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Originally posted by joocheese
As to the top 5 arguments against Guild Wars 2, here are 5 things that actually concern/worry me about the game
1. Massive lag in wvw
2. Items in Cash Shop affecting the balance between players; giving unfair advantage to p2w
3. wvw is not technically world pvp; it is a 2 week long massive battleground involving 3 servers (i.e. no world pvp)
4. Limit of players per server in wvw (causing queing times for wvw)
5. Dynamic events becoming repetitive and predictable
I have pre purchased 2 copies of GW2 (for me and my wife). I am not a GW2 fanboy but I am extremely excited about the game. the above mentioned arguments are just my concerns/worries regarding the game so... GW2 trolls, please go easy on me, I'm on your side ;-)

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I think we are all a little worried about numbers 1, 2 and 5, until we get there we just don't know.

3 is a fact and little can be gained by being concerned about it, accept it and move on :)

4 should be alleviated by the 'overflow' servers, you might not be able to score for your server but at least you're playing while you wait.

Hope I didn't come off as too much of a troll there *grin*

Nah, you did good EvilGeek, had I mentioned 5 things that concerned me about SWTOR I would have been burned alive by now. You are right that item 3 is a fact, and I guess it really doesn't bother me that it is not technically an open persistent world, no big deal for me there. As to number 4, if they only allow a certain amount but the server that we are in is way heavy on wvw pvp'ers, how does that help us, since we'll have queue and wait while others in other servers can just jump in

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by joocheese

As to the top 5 arguments against Guild Wars 2, here are 5 things that actually concern/worry me about the game

1. Massive lag in wvw

2. Items in Cash Shop affecting the balance between players; giving unfair advantage to p2w

3. wvw is not technically world pvp; it is a 2 week long massive battleground involving 3 servers (i.e. no world pvp)

4. Limit of players per server in wvw (causing queing times for wvw)

5. Dynamic events becoming repetitive and predictable

I have pre purchased 2 copies of GW2 (for me and my wife). I am not a GW2 fanboy but I am extremely excited about the game. the above mentioned arguments are just my concerns/worries regarding the game so... GW2 trolls, please go easy on me, I'm on your side ;-)

Which trolls are you talking about the fanboys or haters?  They will both be annoyed with you for different reasons.

Well... GW2 haters (aka WOW/SWTOR trolls) would be excited about GW2 players being concerned about issues involving their own game. GW2 trolls would hate me for mentioning anything possibly remotely negative regarding their Holy Grail

1. No Open World PVP

2. No Open World PVP

3. No Open World PVP

4. No Open World PVP

5. No Open World PVP

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by EvilGeek

 

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Originally posted by joocheese
As to the top 5 arguments against Guild Wars 2, here are 5 things that actually concern/worry me about the game
1. Massive lag in wvw
2. Items in Cash Shop affecting the balance between players; giving unfair advantage to p2w
3. wvw is not technically world pvp; it is a 2 week long massive battleground involving 3 servers (i.e. no world pvp)
4. Limit of players per server in wvw (causing queing times for wvw)
5. Dynamic events becoming repetitive and predictable
I have pre purchased 2 copies of GW2 (for me and my wife). I am not a GW2 fanboy but I am extremely excited about the game. the above mentioned arguments are just my concerns/worries regarding the game so... GW2 trolls, please go easy on me, I'm on your side ;-)

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I think we are all a little worried about numbers 1, 2 and 5, until we get there we just don't know.

3 is a fact and little can be gained by being concerned about it, accept it and move on :)

4 should be alleviated by the 'overflow' servers, you might not be able to score for your server but at least you're playing while you wait.

Hope I didn't come off as too much of a troll there *grin*

Nah, you did good EvilGeek, had I mentioned 5 things that concerned me about SWTOR I would have been burned alive by now. You are right that item 3 is a fact, and I guess it really doesn't bother me that it is not technically an open persistent world, no big deal for me there. As to number 4, if they only allow a certain amount but the server that we are in is way heavy on wvw pvp'ers, how does that help us, since we'll have queue and wait while others in other servers can just jump in

#4 That is the big one for me. Hopefully they get this right and there won't be ques, only being in game will tell.

Lag is so-so.

3 is spot on.

5 we can hope it won't, but again, have to wait.

2. Not worried about "P2W"

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Originally posted by joocheese
4, if they only allow a certain amount but the server that we are in is way heavy on wvw pvp'ers, how does that help us, since we'll have queue and wait while others in other servers can just jump in

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Well at least that means that our server has a high enough population to put us in with a good chance of winning, they'll just have to do without us and our elite skillz while we hone them on the overflow servers :)

Originally posted by raystantz

1. No Open World PVP

2. No Open World PVP

3. No Open World PVP

4. No Open World PVP

5. No Open World PVP

What Themepark MMO has open world PvP?

The most annoying fanboys are the ones that claim this game will be all things to all people.  It's basically impossible to achieve. 

This article did nothing to allay my concerns.  It also ignored the real issues with B2P which are:

1) the possible degradation of community as  haters can keep playing and trolling without spending money

2) The possible misuse of the store to make money

I won't judge the game until they offer a free trial.  But neither am I going to believe the hype.

Originally posted by fiontar

The Top 5 Arguments Against Guild Wars 2

1. I don’t like PvP!
2. There’s no raiding/PvE endgame!
3. There are no healers/tanks! I can’t play my favorite role!
4. The combat is too hard!
5. There’s no subscription! It’ll lose money, crash, burn and fail!

Great article over at ZAM discussing the five above mentioned arguements against GW2 and why they may not hold up under closer scrutiny. Definitely worth a read and further discussion.

 

 

And that is WHY i want to play GW2.

Seems like you have to look for another game i'm afraid.

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by raystantz

1. No Open World PVP

2. No Open World PVP

3. No Open World PVP

4. No Open World PVP

5. No Open World PVP

What Themepark MMO has open world PvP?

So he's not allowed to have an opinion about it?  Thanks.  Maybe you could give us a list of other issues we're supposed to avoid?

And to answer your question:  Lot's of them.  Even WoW and SWTOR have them if you log into a PvP server.  How well it's implemented is another story, but it definitely already exists.

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by fiontar

 

These are all arguements against the game that we have seen pretty damn often over the past six months. No matter how many holes are poked in them, they return. I thinks it's appropriate to gather some of them up into one article and provide a succinct, fact based rebuttal.

That's the thing though it's just holes being poked in them, some of them are real concerns and things that determine whether a person plays long term or not. For every hole a rebuttal pokes, it gains a hole for itself. The real issue here is a person's reasons for playing or not, aren't something we should be in the business of poking holes in. That's in regard to forum posters, it imo is actually worse when publications are attempting to do it. Why can't people just have their opinions? And yes that goes both ways...

Opinions are fine, misconceptions are not. If a well informed person still has issues, that's fine, no one expects everygame to be for every player, but there is so much room for misconceptions about the game here, because the game is so different than the status quo.

Exactly.

It annoys me that I have to keep saying this (i may have posted this a dozen + times by now), but there ARE valid concerns about the game. Both on these forums and on others. Some examples would be: (in no particular order)

1. Lag in WvW

2. Dynamic Events getting too repetative, or resetting too quickly

3. Class balancing issues

4. Dynamic Events not scaling properly

5. Proper Keybinding

6. What the later zones will be like (will they be done as well as some of the earlier ones)
 

There are others, but my point's been made I think. It's one thing to have a concern that can't be rebuked with a 5 second search on google, or just by reading the forums you're posting in. It's an entirely different thing to continuosly post flaws as facts, with false information. Even if it's under the banner of an opinion or a concern.

Originally posted by EvilGeek

 

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Originally posted by joocheese
4, if they only allow a certain amount but the server that we are in is way heavy on wvw pvp'ers, how does that help us, since we'll have queue and wait while others in other servers can just jump in

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Well at least that means that our server has a high enough population to put us in with a good chance of winning, they'll just have to do without us and our elite skillz while we hone them on the overflow servers :)

True... I guess if I'm queued up for wvw, I'll practice my elite skillz on lions, and tigers and bears! Oh my!

1- I'm feeling so insecure within all this enthusiasm !

2- I will lose all the popularity I built on my current MMO server !

3- I don't understand those new game mechanics, so it means they are bad !

4- Being positive is gay so I have to hate it !

5- I didn't hear about this game before last month so it can't be serious !

Originally posted by NMStudio

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by raystantz

1. No Open World PVP

2. No Open World PVP

3. No Open World PVP

4. No Open World PVP

5. No Open World PVP

What Themepark MMO has open world PvP?

So he's not allowed to have an opinion about it?  Thanks.  Maybe you could give us a list of other issues we're supposed to avoid?

Good thing i read your edit first :) PvP servers are the only exception. Because a true open world PvP doesn't play well with a themepark. If all 5 of your reasons are "No Open World PVP" then even a PvP server won't be enough of an open world PvP feel, Its super hard to be implemented properly in a themepark title/design, i asked in another thread, besides PvP exclusive servers, what theme park mmo has a true "open world pvp"?

Wasn't trying to offend anyone, i've only played a couple MMOs, DAoC, WAR and SW:TOR. None of them had a real open world PvP. Thats why i ask. If you are a die hard open world PvPr, Themepark is a very limited way to go.

Originally posted by joocheese

As to the top 5 arguments against Guild Wars 2, here are 5 things that actually concern/worry me about the game

1. Massive lag in wvw

2. Items in Cash Shop affecting the balance between players; giving unfair advantage to p2w

3. wvw is not technically world pvp; it is a 2 week long massive battleground involving 3 servers (i.e. no world pvp)

4. Limit of players per server in wvw (causing queing times for wvw)

5. Dynamic events becoming repetitive and predictable

I have pre purchased 2 copies of GW2 (for me and my wife). I am not a GW2 fanboy but I am extremely excited about the game. the above mentioned arguments are just my concerns/worries regarding the game so... GW2 trolls, please go easy on me, I'm on your side ;-)

1) We have no idea about lag,  but most videos do not show lag just Frame rates drop.  With 300 players per map, it is a concern.  

2) Not a warry at all. 

3) Who would want world PVP.  Sorry but going around ganking lower levels is not PVP(it only is to crapy pvpers).  And like others have said what thempark MMO has world pvp worth anything.  Nothing even close to something like EVE online. 

4) this is a true concern,  since we know that each map (4 maps total) can have over 100 from each server each.  That come out to be 300 people per map or 1200 for all 4, or 400 from each server.  And thats just the min that they are trying for. Its going to be a just wait and see

5) all content gets repetitive and predictable.  I would expect that it will take longer for DE's than dungeons in other games.   

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by raystantz

1. No Open World PVP

2. No Open World PVP

3. No Open World PVP

4. No Open World PVP

5. No Open World PVP

What Themepark MMO has open world PvP?

World of Warcraft, Rift, SWTOR, EQ2, Vanguard, Fallen Earth, do I need to continue?

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Distopia

The only one I see a lot of is the lack of endgame thing, which his reasonings why it's not a problem were rather weak. You could easily make the same argument he used in regard to TOR ( alts: play through different class stories), and it still doesn't explain it away. Repeating stuff isn't a good argument against the top reason people bring that up.

In my experience on forums, the main factor these folks have is against the idea that dev made content supplies a good end-game, this is usually in regard to a want for sandboxy features at endgame, not Raiding as is the common area rebuttals assume. IE City building, community building, etc..Things that all themeparks lack and why they receive so much flak in regard to this subject.

I disagree. His argument wasn't entirely revolved around repeating stuff. He was mostly stating how getting to 80 doesn't mean you've played through the game.

This guy goes into more detail on that: TyriaTalk (ya, I know it's an old video, but it's still relevant)

Basically, how other games work is generally you have these zones streamlined for lvling, with little else to them. There are usually a few options of lvling zones once you get to the higher lvl brackets, but once you clear one there's pretty much no reason to go back. GW2 doesn't work this way. There's a huge variety of places to explore. It's very possible to get to 80 while skipping a large majority of the content. Especially if you're only goal is that max lvl. So, getting to lvl 80 doesn't mean that 'okay, now we can take on the hardest stuff'. Sure there will be difficult content at 80, but there's also difficult content leading up to 80 as well, sprinkled all over the world. This is why there's no 'endgame', what you're doing at 80 is the same thing you've probably been doing all along (unless you've just been grinding). Exploring, running dungeons, pvp, wvw, skill challenges, etc.

It would be cool if they had some more sandboxy elements, but the truth of the matter is that design style is still very much a niche market atm. GW2 is taking the themepark style and bringing it back closer to the sandbox style, but for them to go all the way would alienate a lot of players. Most people either don't have time for a sandbox, or don't get as much enjoyment out of them. The reason we see so many sandbox arguments on these forums is because these forums tend to get a lot of MMO vets (oldschoolers) lerking on them. The actually market is much much bigger than what's reflected on these boards.

With all the ridiculous complaints we've seen on GW2, can you just imagine if it was even more sandboxy? People would be so clueless about how to play that game that they would basically be like 'whelp.. I hope diablo3 doesn't suck'..

I was speaking purely of what is referred to as End-game. As in the focus of the game once you reach that point. That was his essential overall point, the entire game is endgame content. ANd right there is the problem many are going to have with "endgame" it is content based, content is extremely finite, the better it is the more finite it becomes. THis is the root of many of these complaints.

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by NMStudio

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by raystantz

1. No Open World PVP

2. No Open World PVP

3. No Open World PVP

4. No Open World PVP

5. No Open World PVP

What Themepark MMO has open world PvP?

So he's not allowed to have an opinion about it?  Thanks.  Maybe you could give us a list of other issues we're supposed to avoid?

Good thing i read your edit first :) PvP servers are the only exception. Because a true open world PvP doesn't play well with a themepark. If all 5 of your reasons are "No Open World PVP" then even a PvP server won't be enough of an open world PvP feel, Its super hard to be implemented properly in a themepark title/design, i asked in another thread, besides PvP exclusive servers, what theme park mmo has a true "open world pvp"?

Wasn't trying to offend anyone, i've only played a couple MMOs, DAoC, WAR and SW:TOR. None of them had a real open world PvP. Thats why i ask. If you are a die hard open world PvPr, Themepark is a very limited way to go.

I think people are so dissapointed because this game had such great potential for open world PvP.  The WvWVW is just weak in my opinion... some mystical battle field where you're fighting some unknown versions of your own people for some unknown reason... Just doesn't work for me.

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by NMStudio

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by raystantz

1. No Open World PVP

2. No Open World PVP

3. No Open World PVP

4. No Open World PVP

5. No Open World PVP

What Themepark MMO has open world PvP?

So he's not allowed to have an opinion about it?  Thanks.  Maybe you could give us a list of other issues we're supposed to avoid?

Good thing i read your edit first :) PvP servers are the only exception. Because a true open world PvP doesn't play well with a themepark. If all 5 of your reasons are "No Open World PVP" then even a PvP server won't be enough of an open world PvP feel, Its super hard to be implemented properly in a themepark title/design, i asked in another thread, besides PvP exclusive servers, what theme park mmo has a true "open world pvp"?

Wasn't trying to offend anyone, i've only played a couple MMOs, DAoC, WAR and SW:TOR. None of them had a real open world PvP. Thats why i ask. If you are a die hard open world PvPr, Themepark is a very limited way to go.

I've played every triple AAA MMO in existence since UO.. When I say open world pvp I mean.. and simply..

- The ability to attack and/or kill other players in any area of the game world with the exception of instanced areas, or heavily guarded cities. I don't need rewards, I don't need nodes to guard. 

The best fun I've ever had in ANY mmo, were some of the large scale random skirmishes that happened out in the open world, without any planning and without any rewards at stake. I don't need to loot your corpse either.

Originally posted by Distopia

I was speaking purely of what is referred to as End-game. As in the focus of the game once you reach that point. That was his essential overall point, the entire game is endgame content. ANd right there is the problem many are going to have with "endgame" it is content based, content is extremely finite, the better it is the more finite it becomes. THis is the root of many of these complaints.

I understand, but again I disagree.

For sandboxers, yes... that is a huge complaint. However, most of the people following this game are not sandboxers (I know it may not seem like it on these forums). The main complaint about endgame (as I've seen) has more to do with a lack of a gear treadmill / raiding in the traditional sense, than on it missing sandboxy features.

This game really was never intended to be a sandbox, but it does help bridge the gap between themeparks and sandboxes a bit.

So yes, the PvE content is finite. The replayability in that sense comes more from either exploring areas you haven't seen yet, or trying to make sure events don't fail (because, if events fail you start losing outposts, which are your primary methods of travel in this game). However, unlike with most other MMOs, the PvE in this game doesn't become obscelete nearly as quickly. So while, yes it's finite, most players are not going to exhaust all of the PvE content before a new expansion or update comes out. This is also assuming that players never do PvP or WvW. This was much the same way in GW1, and to this day you have people trying to get help completing the expansions.

Originally posted by fiontar

The Top 5 Arguments Against Guild Wars 2

1. I don’t like PvP!
2. There’s no raiding/PvE endgame!
3. There are no healers/tanks! I can’t play my favorite role!
4. The combat is too hard!
5. There’s no subscription! It’ll lose money, crash, burn and fail!

Great article over at ZAM discussing the five above mentioned arguements against GW2 and why they may not hold up under closer scrutiny. Definitely worth a read and further discussion.

 

 

Well written article. I am personally still on the fence about the game. but I like reading well written articles that don't hail the game as the next messiah of MMOs. Articles like this tend to lean me more toward purchasing the title. Been burnt by the hype train before, but this article definately addressed some of my concerns - like the endgame and roles. I am a raider at heart, and that has been a concern for me. Thanks for the link OP!