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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » User Generated Content in MMOs: Why not?

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66 posts found
  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
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4/19/12 7:33:54 PM#41
Originally posted by Starpower

Some of you posters logic baffles me

 

So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.

 

If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really

 

 

amen.

 

 

nobody's made an MMO yet that fulfils the promise of a virtual world either.   8)    

but it'd be ultra stupid to write off the whole MMO genre just because of the 16 years or so of crap.

 

MOST good ideas are implemented poorly the first few, or even MANY times that they are utilized.

ESPECIALLY so with such complex products as MMOs, where there are hundreds and hundreds of fail points, ANY of which can invalidate pretty much THE WHOLE PRODUCT.  its quicker to get a good idea off the ground in simple products where there aren't that many other factors mixed in.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Dissolution

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/12
Posts: 210

Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.

4/19/12 11:34:13 PM#42
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Starpower

Some of you posters logic baffles me

 

So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.

 

If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really

 

 

amen.

 

 

nobody's made an MMO yet that fulfils the promise of a virtual world either.   8)    

but it'd be ultra stupid to write off the whole MMO genre just because of the 16 years or so of crap.

 

MOST good ideas are implemented poorly the first few, or even MANY times that they are utilized.

ESPECIALLY so with such complex products as MMOs, where there are hundreds and hundreds of fail points, ANY of which can invalidate pretty much THE WHOLE PRODUCT.  its quicker to get a good idea off the ground in simple products where there aren't that many other factors mixed in.

 

I agree with the disdain for the negativity towards it. However, in the case of Neverwinter and "The Foundry" for player created content, I was unaware that the Foundry was released for STO. I thought this was a new invention for Cryptic. If the same idea did not work for one game with the same company, I am now a little tentative about the concept. But you are right,) I hope that STO was the guinea pig that teaches the Neverwinter team what to do, and what not to do with it. I am rooting for Neverwinter to be a success on the inside but remaining pessimistic on the outside.

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

4/20/12 1:04:19 PM#43
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by FrostWyrm
City of Heroes actually began doing this a few years ago with their "architecht" system.
The only problem with the idea is that for every truly good piece of content, and every truly inspired player there is out there, there are 100 pieces of complete trash, and 100 immature "kids" (both adult and young) that will build structures to resemble penises.



How about adding that Architect Missions were highly abused and people used them to get to max level in a matter of hours.

 


Because of this few people level normally in CoH and the game now revolves around abusing the player made content.

That is what I remember about CoH mission architecht too.  I only came back briefly during that time period and haven't been back since.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

4/20/12 1:15:49 PM#44

I'm not opposed to the idea but I've never seen it done well though.

The players still must work within the confines of the tools given to them by the game developers.  So there isn't going to be much variation between the content besides the skin.  You could probably acheive equally good results with a random number generator as the average player.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Azrile

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/08
Posts: 2615

4/20/12 1:42:32 PM#45

There would be a lot of technical problems.

 

Graphics -  If players could create models and landscapes completely from scratch, that means every player would have to download all that content.  This worked ok with NWN because usually you knew the quality of the module was worth the download of the extra content.

But if you don´t want players to have to download custom models and terrain, then the players are going to have to build content using the existing graphics.  While that may seem fine, you are then going to end up with a lot of really REALLY crappy dungeons.  The vast majority of the work for creatign content is creating the graphics.. if the developer is going to create all that, having someone inhouse actually build dungeons and quests is the easy part.

Also, if you are allowing people to create graphics.. when do the other players have to download them?  How annoying to run across the map, find a dungeon, then have to wait 5 mins to download graphics for a dungeon that might really suck... or are you going to force every player to download all the added graphics?

 

If you are talking about players adding models, creatures etc..  then it is a great idea and could help save dev time (as it is fairly easy to check specs on a new creature).    But creating dungeons from pre-existing graphics just would not save the devs any time and would result in a host of bad things.

  Dissolution

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/12
Posts: 210

Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.

4/20/12 3:06:53 PM#46
Originally posted by Azrile

There would be a lot of technical problems.

 

Graphics -  If players could create models and landscapes completely from scratch, that means every player would have to download all that content.  This worked ok with NWN because usually you knew the quality of the module was worth the download of the extra content.

But if you don´t want players to have to download custom models and terrain, then the players are going to have to build content using the existing graphics.  While that may seem fine, you are then going to end up with a lot of really REALLY crappy dungeons.  The vast majority of the work for creatign content is creating the graphics.. if the developer is going to create all that, having someone inhouse actually build dungeons and quests is the easy part.

Also, if you are allowing people to create graphics.. when do the other players have to download them?  How annoying to run across the map, find a dungeon, then have to wait 5 mins to download graphics for a dungeon that might really suck... or are you going to force every player to download all the added graphics?

 

If you are talking about players adding models, creatures etc..  then it is a great idea and could help save dev time (as it is fairly easy to check specs on a new creature).    But creating dungeons from pre-existing graphics just would not save the devs any time and would result in a host of bad things.

 

I doubt we would see that for an MMO anywhere in the near or distant future. At best we are probably looking at an engine that allows you to choose a map (poosiby creating a map) and injecting models which are already in game. I doubt we would see much more than a simplified version of map+pre-existing models+ basic storyline and or/ text via some type of dungeon creation wizard. Rewards would even need to be governed or they would be used as an exploit to farm good items for little to no effort. I think it wil be an option you will be able to enjoy due to the fact that it is player created but never be able to compete with the actual game content. This goes for games planning to have it and games that may consider having it for a great deal of time.

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

4/20/12 3:28:32 PM#47
Originally posted by Dissolution
Originally posted by Azrile

There would be a lot of technical problems.

 

Graphics -  If players could create models and landscapes completely from scratch, that means every player would have to download all that content.  This worked ok with NWN because usually you knew the quality of the module was worth the download of the extra content.

But if you don´t want players to have to download custom models and terrain, then the players are going to have to build content using the existing graphics.  While that may seem fine, you are then going to end up with a lot of really REALLY crappy dungeons.  The vast majority of the work for creatign content is creating the graphics.. if the developer is going to create all that, having someone inhouse actually build dungeons and quests is the easy part.

Also, if you are allowing people to create graphics.. when do the other players have to download them?  How annoying to run across the map, find a dungeon, then have to wait 5 mins to download graphics for a dungeon that might really suck... or are you going to force every player to download all the added graphics?

 

If you are talking about players adding models, creatures etc..  then it is a great idea and could help save dev time (as it is fairly easy to check specs on a new creature).    But creating dungeons from pre-existing graphics just would not save the devs any time and would result in a host of bad things.

 

I doubt we would see that for an MMO anywhere in the near or distant future. At best we are probably looking at an engine that allows you to choose a map (poosiby creating a map) and injecting models which are already in game. I doubt we would see much more than a simplified version of map+pre-existing models+ basic storyline and or/ text via some type of dungeon creation wizard. Rewards would even need to be governed or they would be used as an exploit to farm good items for little to no effort. I think it wil be an option you will be able to enjoy due to the fact that it is player created but never be able to compete with the actual game content. This goes for games planning to have it and games that may consider having it for a great deal of time.

That would difficult at best.  What's stopping me from building a dungeon with one small room.  Packing as many mobs as allowed in that one area.  AOE them down in a few seconds.  Rinse.  Repeat.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Obraik

Ewok

Joined: 5/02/05
Posts: 7303

4/21/12 2:47:26 PM#48

SWG had user generated content since the beginning.  To begin with it involved the help of SOE event managers but eventually they developed tools that gave that power to the users, such as Storyteller that let people place objects in the world and then Chronicles which let people create their own quests.

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

4/21/12 2:54:34 PM#49

Because in nearly every game this has ever been an option, people use these maps purely for farming. Very few people these days  have the mind for DM'ing like the good old days of P&P games, and the idea that user generated content would make games better is idealistic. The only way to prevent that user content from being abused is to either nerf the rewards into the dirt (which has been done, the consequence being no one does them anymore) or for the devs to monitor and balance the content personally, which would be impossible to do for everything everyone makes, ever. If they had the resources to keep up with that much content influx, user-generated content wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

4/21/12 2:57:06 PM#50
Originally posted by Starpower

Some of you posters logic baffles me

 

So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.

 

If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really

 

The flaw in your logic however is that few are blaming the technology or the developers. This is one of those cases where the blame is solely on the players who abuse the system, the same way abuse of open PvP has lead to its decline in popularity.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3732

RIP City of Heroes!

4/21/12 3:00:41 PM#51
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by FrostWyrm
City of Heroes actually began doing this a few years ago with their "architecht" system.
The only problem with the idea is that for every truly good piece of content, and every truly inspired player there is out there, there are 100 pieces of complete trash, and 100 immature "kids" (both adult and young) that will build structures to resemble penises.



How about adding that Architect Missions were highly abused and people used them to get to max level in a matter of hours.

 


Because of this few people level normally in CoH and the game now revolves around abusing the player made content.

When it first came out it was pretty bad, or awesome depending on your pov.  However that changed long ago.  Architect was heavily nerfed and the other content xp was increased.  Just prior to the f2p transition (haven't played since about a month before f2p) I would say it was pretty even, perhaps a tad more leveling in regular content vs architect.

MA ruined COH as far as the traditional game goes.  You are quick to bring the the problem/fix but the game world never returned to what it was.  To show you, people still sit in the MA instead of the world goes to the proof that MA is still the most cost effective means in the game.

Players will exploit anything you give them.

  User Deleted
4/21/12 3:03:24 PM#52
Originally posted by FrostWyrm

City of Heroes actually began doing this a few years ago with their "architecht" system.

The only problem with the idea is that for every truly good piece of content, and every truly inspired player there is out there, there are 100 pieces of complete trash, and 100 immature "kids" (both adult and young) that will build structures to resemble penises.

 

That is a concern of mine also.  The engine I work with is designed with the world editor built into the client and "Build your own zone" is something I've considered.  I just can't get passed the idea that I'll have a half-dozen racks of servers running crap zones that nobody ever plays.

 

I wish I had a solution.  I've thought about having them load on-the-fly so at least dead zones didn't eat resources.

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

4/25/12 1:31:21 AM#53
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
Originally posted by Starpower

Some of you posters logic baffles me

 

So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.

 

If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really

 

The flaw in your logic however is that few are blaming the technology or the developers. This is one of those cases where the blame is solely on the players who abuse the system, the same way abuse of open PvP has lead to its decline in popularity.

 

the flaw in your logic is that you act as if the players cannot be directed at all via game mechanics.  if that was the case, no game systems would be worth implementing or playing at all, because players just abuse existing systems.

"abuse of open PVP" is up to the developers.  its a design decision.  by now, people who implement FFA PVP know exactly what kind of gameplay it involves and CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE that design.  only the first few games (such as UO) have any grounds for saying that what happened in them was unforeseen emergent player exploits and can put any kind of reasonable blame onto players.  even then, i personally believe its the DEVELOPER responsibility, and that they shoulda have KNOWN it was possible, or even likely that players would turn the world into a gankfest given the freedom to do so.

 

don't blame players, blame the devs.  they are the ones with the overall design ideas, and the ability to corral players into ways that they want the world to operate.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5981

4/25/12 1:41:00 AM#54
Quick question, but how far has player made content as a feature, has progressed over the years?

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

4/25/12 1:50:11 AM#55
Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Because in nearly every game this has ever been an option, people use these maps purely for farming. Very few people these days  have the mind for DM'ing like the good old days of P&P games, and the idea that user generated content would make games better is idealistic. The only way to prevent that user content from being abused is to either nerf the rewards into the dirt (which has been done, the consequence being no one does them anymore) or for the devs to monitor and balance the content personally, which would be impossible to do for everything everyone makes, ever. If they had the resources to keep up with that much content influx, user-generated content wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

 

this was Starpower's point here.  that your imagination, as stated in your first sentence, is severely limited because all you feel you have to go by is existing (and known to you) examples.   apparently you can't imagine the workarounds and improvements that are possible, and are just writing off the future by looking at the past.  using that kind of thinking, minecraft would have never been the huge success that it is.

 

no, "nerfing into the dirt" is not the only way to prevent "player abuse".

 

and (as a few people mentioned may have mentioned) the manpower that is currently spent on making things from scratch could INSTEAD be spent on overseeing and refining HUNDREDS of times more player made content.  

you DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT %100 of user generated content %100 as its presented.   thats one of the most simplistic assumptions most people here have.  you CAN have quality control.

you have it backwards.  if they had user generated content, they wouldn't have to make everything from scratch, and could spend fulltime on JUST TWEAKING (a tiny fraction of the time spent on each piece) free labour generated by users.

 

too much content to sort thru?  lol  devs would LOVE for that to be a "problem".  

1st of all, you don't HAVE to use everything submitted.  

2nd, you don't have to "sort" thru it.  just implement (an extremely well known/used feature i'm sure you are familiar with) user ratings and only pay attention to the top content if you don't have the time for your art team to look at everything (extremely unlikely).

 

 

nothing needs to be automatically added to a world.  everything can be submitted and only made officially part of the world after being tweaked and/or approved.

but i guess that simple concept is so elusive cuz people have never seen it with their eyeballs (at least i'm not aware of any UGC based game that has done that YET).

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Adamantine

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3316

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

4/25/12 2:05:38 AM#56

Thanks no thanks.

I rather have a smaller number of fully professional designed dungeons, each with an individual look, than hundreds of always the same looking dungeons, as it was with NWN1.

  Lissyl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 232

If cosmetics aren't content, why don't people demand a cheaper game done in full grayscale?

4/25/12 3:02:59 AM#57

I think it can work.

There are many players who all enjoy many things, and somewhere among that group of players there are a legion of former dungeon masters, storytellers, and game masters, all with stories to tell and dungeons to run, from the grindiest dungeon crawl to the most intricate city encounters.  Collectively, as a game-endorsed entity, they can (would?) form the largest peer-review network a hosted game has ever seen for content submission.  Allow them to pick and choose, grade, and review user-submitted material and sample it or abstain from sampling it on an individual basis.  Then allow them to take their characters (note -- these would be similar in power to the old 'Wizards' of MU*s long past, not quite Mods or Gods but 'powerful characters' that don't interact with the game world at large) and play the best submissions, keeping a critical eye on balance, playability, clarity, and so forth.

If one of them abstains from it, then they can run it with regular, 'real' characters (as, by abstaining, they are unaware of the contents surprises).  The final piece of the puzzle is to have one of this cadre of game runners actually running the material -- a sort-of 'live DM' for any final arbitration, perhaps monster control, observing for pvp exploits and so forth.  Reward these people for thier time with items that can only be obtained by this select group of players -- but make entry into the select group of players something that anyone can attain provided they can submit quality material and have the desire to join it.  Samples might include housing items, gardening items, fashion, minipets, skins, and the like, to indicate their status as players who are willingly devoting -extra- time to the game and the community.

I literally came up with this as I wrote it, so it's possible I missed a glaring loophole somewhere.  Of course there are a few checks and balances that would need to be maintained for security (for example, the content should be hosted -only- on the company servers, never downloadable) and occasional quality assurance would need to be strictly adhered to.  But essentially, it's a model for a graphical MUD/MUX that remains true to not only the intentions of the genre and its forebears, but to the promises it gives to its players - true never-ending content, crafted by some of the best minds in the game and approved by others of the same caliber.

Sorry so long, hope everything was clear.

 

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4116

4/25/12 3:06:18 AM#58
Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

User generated content has influenced online gaming to the extreme. LoL, anyone? MOBA games, tower defense games, player creations permeate the gaming scene now more than ever.

 

Why can't the community generate its own content while having the devs implement their custom made maps/dungeons?

Imagine a game with limitless content due to the fact that it can be cheaply implemented by the devs and created by its own playerbase. There would never be a shortage of things to do, or places to explore.

 

In case it's not clear what I mean:

Users make maps with tool provided by devs

Devs implement maps, or sort through set and slightly modify for balance

 

Yay/nay?

 


Err i think you came up with this idea a few years too late haha...

 

There are already MMORPGS doing this and yes the system works pretty good... STO online one standing out as everything is player rated so you have a decent idea if its going to be good before you start.

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

4/25/12 4:12:57 AM#59
Originally posted by Adamantine

Thanks no thanks.

I rather have a smaller number of fully professional designed dungeons, each with an individual look, than hundreds of always the same looking dungeons, as it was with NWN1.

 

if their dungeons looked all the same, the fault lies with the devs for not making the tools in-depth enough and/or not providing a good variety of textures/models/whatever for players to work with.

and for not having all the OTHER missing features (such as not letting every tim, dick and harry make every single thing they crap out be public for everybody to consume).

 

once given a proper starting set of assets and properly designed building tools, having the work being done mostly by users actually creates MUCH MORE variety, because there is MUCH MORE variety of creative INPUT.

take any game out there, and after you've played 10 zones or so, you start to see the same old patterns emerging from their limited manpower.  the same small set of zone designers creating all the content.  

 

 

so in reality, a properly done UGC based game would have VASTLY MORE variety.  stop looking at only what you've seen, and start thinking about what COULD be.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

4/25/12 11:32:15 AM#60
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Adamantine

Thanks no thanks.

I rather have a smaller number of fully professional designed dungeons, each with an individual look, than hundreds of always the same looking dungeons, as it was with NWN1.

 

if their dungeons looked all the same, the fault lies with the devs for not making the tools in-depth enough and/or not providing a good variety of textures/models/whatever for players to work with.

and for not having all the OTHER missing features (such as not letting every tim, dick and harry make every single thing they crap out be public for everybody to consume).

 

once given a proper starting set of assets and properly designed building tools, having the work being done mostly by users actually creates MUCH MORE variety, because there is MUCH MORE variety of creative INPUT.

take any game out there, and after you've played 10 zones or so, you start to see the same old patterns emerging from their limited manpower.  the same small set of zone designers creating all the content.  

 

 

so in reality, a properly done UGC based game would have VASTLY MORE variety.  stop looking at only what you've seen, and start thinking about what COULD be.

99% of the users have no talent in art or design in anything. Either they will make dungeons using generic assets, which looks generic, or have bad art, and design. It does NOT matter what tool you give them. If you give them a 3D model builder, they can't build a good looking 3D model of a mob anyway.

I prefer professional designed stuff 100%.

It is NOT worth the resources to provide easy enough tools for users. Better spend resources to make more professional designed dungeons.

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